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Old
12-01-2010, 09:03 PM
  #51
Sawdalite
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
A couple things. One thing I want to make clear is I'm not saying Homer is "not a good GM". I feel like that's something people always jump to with me. I'm just saying he has his flaws, and IMO they are very big flaws. He's terrible at asset management. He sees talent and overspends to get it. He's like me buying whatever I want regardless of cost. It's just stupid, and I'm aware of it, but I do it haha. So again, I am not saying Homer is bad. I just don't think he's as flawless as some people make him out to be, because we're such a good team.

To your point about an employer giving his employees a job to do, I'm glad you made this analogy, because I made a similar one in the other thread. Yes, if I'm an employer, I want my employee to complete the project I give him. It is his ultimate goal. However, I want to know how my employee is completing that project. If he could be completing that project AHEAD of time, and UNDER budget, but isn't, I'm going to be upset. That is what I feel is happening with Homer.

Another analogy I've made in the past. If I'm in the market for a new car. And I walk into the dealer, point out the car I want, and get it...good for me right? I have an awesome car. Well, I paid like 5k more than I had to. So yes, I have an awesome car, but I was stupid about how I went and got my car. The end result (awesome car) does not mean I did well for myself.

A team with as much talent as we have, is going to have a VERY hard time keeping it together. Therefore, it's unbelievably important to be overly critical in every dollar you spend. Homer pisses away far too much money. 100k here, 300k there. It adds up quickly. Hell. Jeff Carter's "raise" for the next 10 years is only 270k. A mistake like Matt Walker, could pay for Carter's raise and someone like Powe/Nodl/Carcillo (and perhaps more) for the next 2 years. We had to trade Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo for a couple hundred K in savings. Over and over we see TINY dollar amounts cause issues for us. I nitpick over such OBVIOUS mistakes because the are so easily avoided.

Don't even get me started on Randy Jones.

As for if I was owner, would Homer keep his job? I'd have to say yes. Partly because I'm not familiar enough with what alternatives are available haha. And again, he isn't terrible. I really want to stress that. If I were owner, I'd keep him, and keep my wallet close before he spends my money.
Many excellent points... And correct in many ways.

That said, I try to keep in mind both time and circumstance in all moves... Also, it is not as simple as dealing with an auto salesman where they have a line drawn and you try to get it down as close to that line as possible. It is both a supply and demand situation and a situation where players have to be agreeable to coming here... To get a player often you have to overpay -- and I don't like that at all either, but it is what it is -- and when the Flyers were god awful that season, Homer had to somehow convince players that were sought after by many, and ones that fit what he wanted to do with the Flyers, that they should sign with the last place team... no easy task.

Also, IMO Homer has at times displayed great asset management with how he has spread out the cash to allow lower Cap hits... He was a trailblazer in that method... Briere and Kimmo could have cost a hell of a lot more... and Pronger is a bargain. Has he overpaid and been burned buy it? He certainly has.

But he wanted Hartnell, and Bird Dog was desired by many and had to be paid what he was or lose out... Lupul was a missed mark; maybe that Hatcher hit on him derailed him... he looked every bit as promising as Leino does before that hit.

The core is set so the role players are all that is needed -- not that that is not a big deal -- But he has made great moves to save money... along with Pronger and money saved with Kimmo and Briere, you pointed out how nice the Carter deal was.

And he did move Gagne while we all complained...saved a bundle there.

Also... we only know the tip of the iceberg... we have no idea what goes on in the inner circles of GMs and the NHL. There may be things we cannot ever understand about the reasoning of deals and signings.

As long as he can tap dance around Cap issues and mistakes I am fine with them... Every GM has made blunders but we don't know nor really care since they are not our team and we don't follow them close enough.

To this end, I weigh results very heavily into the equation.

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Old
12-01-2010, 09:12 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
These 2 paragraphs in particular:

Just because I criticize doesn't mean I'm not confident. I'm INCREDIBLY confident. I've said it before, the success of the team has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of Homer. Therefore, my criticism of him, does not have any reflection on how good I think we are, because we are awesome!

I am not arguing he is lucky at all. The only time luck ever comes up (often from Jester and myself) is regarding Bob. It was lucky that he required ZERO adjustment to North American hockey. It wasn't lucky that we signed him. It's merely lucky that he's ready right now, instead of in the AHL where everyone thought he would be.
Those lines were not directed at you -- sorry if I led you to believe they were -- rather it was directed to some other posters in this thread and other threads over the last few years.

This has not been in my mind an argument against you... It is a discussion about Homer and the many things that has been written about him in many threads. I have responded to day to a few people here, you are merely one of them.


... As for Bob; Homer should receive credit for his moves and selections and damnation for them also, depending... it goes both ways IMO.

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Old
12-02-2010, 03:53 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I was a bit harsh as well, so my apologies. That said, you (and others) keep saying things like "if you look at the entire body of work", when all I'm trying to convey, is that to me the body of work, doesn't matter at all. How well we are doing, literally has no almost no bearing on how I judge a GM. We're good, I get it. I expected to be good. Some of his mistakes are just so obvious to me, that I have a hard time forgiving it. A GM can make a GREAT move that doesn't translate to wins. By your metric, it could be declared a poor move. Conversely, a terrible move could be masked, and the team continue to win. That doesn't make it ok.

I just get annoyed being labeled a hater and a pessimist because I'm critical of some moves our GM makes. And people act as if I must be upset that we're doing so well, because it must mean I'm wrong. In real life, I'm a complete and total optimist. phillyfanatic, I completely understand why you and others like Homer. For you, the fact that we are so good, is all you need. I just dislike being labeled because I tend to look at things on a more granular level. This isn't some irrational conclusion I'm jumping to. As I've said over and over again. No one is right or wrong. We just think differently, and judge our GMs on different things. I understand your metric. I just wish someone would tell me they understand what I'm saying (despite disagreeing), rather than call me a hater, and insinuate I'm upset that we're playing so well.

OK, first off - I am posting because all I hear is the "GM Is a moron" side of the argument. I don't even think I started on you, I think we got caught up in another debate (you know - whole Great goalie versus right goalie at the time debate - LOL).

Now, as for being labeled a hater. I am not going to label you that (I probably have called you that somewhere, but moving on). You can disagree with his moves, but you don't like him - I can tell that in your posts - right? I am saying that the style of GM Homer is, will NEVER allow you to like him. The reason? What you have detailed above. You cannot overlook his mistakes. If that is the case, he will continue to disappoint you. What I am saying is, he is a swing for the fences, no fear kind of general manager. The GM's I hate are the Bob Gainey's of the world who sit on trades and never make them in fear they might lose. Homer is called SHooter for a reason, he makes the deals.

Many still feel he gave up too much for Pronger. Me? I think it was the steal of the decade. Pronger is already in my Flyer hall of fame and at less than 5 million.....

No other GM has made as many bold moves as him. He has been burned a few times, but we absolutely ***** teams along the way. Coburn for Zhitnik? Timonen and Hartnell for a first? Leino for a 5th and OKT?

Again - he has won many trades, lost a few, looked like a genius on some and a moron on others. So, looking at the end result, forgetting the bad and the good. And instead, looking at the team, the future, the contracts he has inked guys too.....this team is a contender this year and will be for at least the next 5 years with the core he has assembled. That......is my point.

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Old
12-06-2010, 04:10 PM
  #54
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I love this team cuz of how decisive the management is and willing to make huge changes quickly.

After the loss to TB, Philly looked to be in bad shape. They had Prims and bought Forsberg, and also locked up pylon Dmen Rathje and Hatcher (even added to that with Gauthier).

They looked dead and gone at that point. Forwards led by oft-injured Forsberg and concussed Prims .... defense led by pylons Rathje and Hatcher. I thought the team is gone for a decade. Pylons on D, injured decrepit has-beens as forwards. Game over, turn the lights out.

But wow! Forwards supplemented by moves made 3 years previous (Richards and Carter), trading with (ie robbing) Nashville to dump a deteriorating Forsberg and get defensive stalwarts Coburn and Timo and power forward Hartnell.... buying Briere and drafting Giroux... then buying Prongs.

WOW. Excellent drafting, strategic buying, and pure robbery trades.

Drafted: Richards, Carter, Giroux,
Buying: Prongs, Briere,
Plain Robbery: Timo, Coburn, Hartnell.

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Old
12-07-2010, 12:23 AM
  #55
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I think it was Little who found Bobrovsky wasnt it?

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Old
12-07-2010, 01:11 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I think it was Little who found Bobrovsky wasnt it?
From all accounts I've read Russian-based Flyers scout Ken Hoodikoff sent tapes to Little who leads the global goaltender scouting... Homer aggressively pursued him and won the battle of getting him to sign with the Flyers.

To me all the credit and blame falls flatley on the shoulders of the GM as his staff is in his charge, and under his watch... Bobrovsky could have easily been allowed to sign elsewhere without Homer's go-ahead. And had he failed in America he would have been another player on the list of failed goalies that Homer has signed. It is a two way street.

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12-07-2010, 09:40 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
From all accounts I've read Russian-based Flyers scout Ken Hoodikoff sent tapes to Little who leads the global goaltender scouting... Homer aggressively pursued him and won the battle of getting him to sign with the Flyers.

To me all the credit and blame falls flatley on the shoulders of the GM as his staff is in his charge, and under his watch... Bobrovsky could have easily been allowed to sign elsewhere without Homer's go-ahead. And had he failed in America he would have been another player on the list of failed goalies that Homer has signed. It is a two way street.
One of the most important things a GM can do is to pay for pro scouting. Homer has a very good eye for talent but saw that whatever Philly was doing the past 30 years to scout goalies - was wrong. So, he hired goalie specific scounts (Little + others) to scour Europe and to report back. The results; Bobrovsky and Eriksson. Such a small move in putting emphasis in an area of weakness. Giving the decision making power to people who know the position (instead of having Clarke and Homer deciding who the next great goalie is, let goalie scouts and former goalies review technique, form and skills).

I remember reading about that new philosophy a couple of years ago and thinking - this is going to pay off. It has. Another great move by the GM. Great work by the scouts. A former organizational weakness - corrected.

And on your point about "trailblazing". Homer is to thank for:

- Front loaded contracts (Briere was the first)
- Long term contracts to franchise forwards (Richards was the first).
- Long term contracts for a lower cap hit past a players prime (Pronger was the first)
- Trading for the rights to negotiate with free agents (Timonen and Hartnell were the first)

People complain about the NTC's he gives out. We'll, he has been doing everything possible to land big free agents for less money then they get, that means giving out longer term, more money up front and things like limited NTC (Carter).

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Old
12-07-2010, 11:22 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
One of the most important things a GM can do is to pay for pro scouting. Homer has a very good eye for talent but saw that whatever Philly was doing the past 30 years to scout goalies - was wrong. So, he hired goalie specific scounts (Little + others) to scour Europe and to report back. The results; Bobrovsky and Eriksson. Such a small move in putting emphasis in an area of weakness. Giving the decision making power to people who know the position (instead of having Clarke and Homer deciding who the next great goalie is, let goalie scouts and former goalies review technique, form and skills).

I remember reading about that new philosophy a couple of years ago and thinking - this is going to pay off. It has. Another great move by the GM. Great work by the scouts. A former organizational weakness - corrected.

And on your point about "trailblazing". Homer is to thank for:

- Front loaded contracts (Briere was the first)
- Long term contracts to franchise forwards (Richards was the first).
- Long term contracts for a lower cap hit past a players prime (Pronger was the first)
- Trading for the rights to negotiate with free agents (Timonen and Hartnell were the first)

People complain about the NTC's he gives out. We'll, he has been doing everything possible to land big free agents for less money then they get, that means giving out longer term, more money up front and things like limited NTC (Carter).
Sadly when MLB's Curt Flood opened the floodgates -- pun definitely intended -- it led to the open market players... As soon as upper limits are set on a Free Agent it is very hard to take something off the table and still sign a player... and it is also very important to offer a kicker that gives your team an upper hand (it's all about the hand )

If a player in demand is looking for the security of NTC or NMC it is almost certain he will get it with one team or another... and if he has that on the table somewhere, you almost have to include it in your offer.

That said, we must realize that a not trade or no move is not really what they are named... rather they are a way where that upper hand is doled out. It pretty much can be pushed and maneuvered... more so with the NMC than the NTC one... where a player has to waive that clause for one reason or another. What it does do is allow the player to select teams and/or terms where it will be waived... Gagne is a good example where he waived it and compromised on his terms rather than the best terms for the Flyers. He eliminated teams he didn't want to play for and forced the Flyers hands once the Flyers forced his... When a team almost flatly states that they don't want a player on their team and he is not in their plans, what is a player to do?

While I'd rather not have such clauses in the contract and hold all the cards, I am not as concerned with them as many people are... It just restricts the options and make the GM have to be more creative, and be more fair with the players desires.

It we don't want the clauses it is easy to avoid... merely aim for the players that other teams don't want and the ones with no leverage... Problem solved!

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:32 AM
  #59
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bump as requested in another thread.

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