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RLR: Malkin could be No. 1 Pick

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Old
05-17-2004, 11:09 AM
  #101
usiel
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I'm hoping both Ovechkin and Malkin fulfill their potential for the Caps/Pens. Both franchises need them and it would be great for the league also.

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05-17-2004, 11:28 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
Also I don't see how Malkin is ahead of AO, who was one of the younger players I can think of to play for the Senior National Team. AO was great in the WJC's last year, and I've got one game on tape with him in the RSL. Both should turn out to be great players though and I'd be happy to get either one.
Not an entirely fair comparison, I am sure that AO vs. Crosby would be a notch in AO's belt at this stage too, Crosby being what, still 16 or just 17? I think that whatever scouts are excited about Malkin and who are using the 'close the gap' talk are projecting, remember AO is a full year almost older than Malkin, and the difference between 17 and 18 (almost 19) could be huge, not only another year of hockey experience under the belt but in growth. It is safe to say that AO has not had the growth spurt in his game that Malkin has in his this past year, that much at least is apparent, and perhaps expected as AO did not have much to grow into. It is also safe to say that Malkin is exceeding expectations, and scouts are projecting out another year for Malkin and expecting similar progress. They may be wrong, how many enter their draft year (or their career post draft) expected to do great things and stagnate disappointing the scouts? It happens every year, but most scouts seem to think that Malkin will continue to progress.

However, to compare the almost 19 year old AO with the 17 going on 18 EM is ridiculous, Malkin is not at that level, what scouts are thinking about is where they think EM will be in a year.


Last edited by Jaded-Fan: 05-17-2004 at 12:02 PM.
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Old
05-17-2004, 11:52 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
difference between 17 and 18 (almost 19)

the almost 19 year old AO with the 17 going on 18 EM is ridiculous
nice age spin......fact is EM will be 18 before AO turns 19......yet you attempt to twist that for some reason....

if AO is "almost 19"......why isnt EM almost 18?

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05-17-2004, 12:02 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
nice age spin......fact is EM will be 18 before AO turns 19......yet you attempt to twist that for some reason....

if AO is "almost 19"......why isnt EM almost 18?
'remember AO is a full year almost older than Malkin' . . . umm, what part of that statement was so unclear . . .


there is almost a year of development difference between the two, almost two years between AO and Crosby. If AO was not better head to head against either presently AO is in big trouble . . .

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05-17-2004, 12:21 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
'remember AO is a full year almost older than Malkin' . . . umm, what part of that statement was so unclear . . .


there is almost a year of development difference between the two, almost two years between AO and Crosby. If AO was not better head to head against either presently AO is in big trouble . . .
Im not even talking about the development....and where each guy stands.....just laughing at you when you say...EM is 17 and AO is almost 19.....its the spin you put on it....and you know you are doing it.....by now everyone knows there is 10.5 months difference in age.....but yet your "difference between 17 and 18 (almost 19)" statement makes it sound like its more like 2 years difference......

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05-17-2004, 12:29 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-SHARKIE
Redline is just soooooo smart some times.

According to them...the top 10 in 2004 well be like this....Malkin could go #1 over a hybrid player, who has some of the most sick skills and all around play that drawas comparisons to Foppa...... Alexander Radulov well go #3 overall simply because of a dominating tournament....and Robby Schremp wont even touch the top 10 because of what?

Redline lovesss to stir up some talk about them, so i'm not surprised they see Malkin this way.

Malkin could be a very very good hockey player, but if you go to the draft table and think he's neck and neck right now with Ovechkin, then you have completly ignored Ovy..... I think the scouts that say it's dead even, have seen allllottt of Malkin and not much of Ovechkin, Malkin has the skills and play to be a #1 overall pick some years, but not with OVechkin in the same draft.

but the number they go overall argument is moot because in 6 years, for all we know A.J. THelen, or Lauri TUkonen could be better then both or Malkin could be lighting it up, when Ovechkin just couldnt cut it (wont happen)

Ovechkin has soooo much upside to him, and so so little downside....It doesnt get much better then this for a #1 overall selection.
I don't know why so many people rip Redline, they're just another educated opinion like McKeens and Hockey News. They have Ovechkin #1, many other sources have Radulov in their top ten and I would be skeptical about Schremp also after his Junior coach benched him for most of game 7 during the OHL playoffs. BTW, I'm a fan of Shcremp's.

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05-17-2004, 01:15 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
.....but yet your "difference between 17 and 18 (almost 19)" statement makes it sound like its more like 2 years difference......

And I almost had 'em all fooled . . . curses . . .

Some of you are just looking for red herrings to harpoon . . .

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Old
05-17-2004, 02:00 PM
  #108
Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
And I almost had 'em all fooled . . . curses . . .

Some of you are just looking for red herrings to harpoon . . .
no.....it just gets old seeing people exaggerate the facts when trying to make their case.....which is exactly what you did

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05-17-2004, 02:12 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
no.....it just gets old seeing people exaggerate the facts when trying to make their case.....which is exactly what you did
No, it gets very old when people can not learn to read a post or selectively pick and choose, making lame attempts to distort the message within the post . . . I clearly said (in response to another post) that there was just under a year difference and that in my opinion the scouts were not comparing AO and Malkin head to head but projecting another year growth on Malkin but to compare where Malkin and AO are currently is silly as there is a difference in age, what next compare AO and Crosby (AO almost 19, Malkin almost 18, Crosby something like 16)? Simple direct point and yet it was an opening for yet another of the AO worshippers to attack the messanger based on five words in a post rather than the content of the post itself. That get old, very old.

The real point of all your posts that I have seen, others wearing AO colored glasses as well (btw, I have never dragged AO down in any post I have ever written, I still feel that he will be great, that is not the point here), is AO is G-O-D and heaven help anyone who has anything good to say about anyone else . . . we get it . . .

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Old
05-17-2004, 02:36 PM
  #110
Mothra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
making lame attempts to distort the message within the post
no...what YOU did was distort the truth.....you reffered to AO as "almost 19"....and Malkin as "17"....its that simple....distort the truth to prove something

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
to compare where Malkin and AO are currently is silly as there is a difference in age,
jeezus....AO and EM are in the same draft class......yet its sill to compare?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
The real point of all your posts that I have seen, EroCaps and Foppas as well is AO is G-O-D and heaven help anyone who has anything good to say about anyone else . . . we get it . . .

more distortion on your part I see

all my posts?.....please show me ANY AO is god posts that I have posted?...please..I want to see this.....I said several times that I have never seen a full game of either of these guys.....I dont pretend to have tapes of WJC games....or RSL...or whatever....like others do......I have also said...in THIS thread that its possible neither guy will be the best player in this draft.....I will however call you...and others out when they distort the truth/facts.........thats all I did.....cant help it if you dont like it.....next time post more accurately and I wont come down on you

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05-17-2004, 02:42 PM
  #111
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I will say it slowly this time . . . My entire point was that the reason some scouts find Malkin to be gaining is not a direct comparison but projecting Malkin with another year under his belt . . . my opinion . . . hell, you may be right, Malkin may already be better in their eyes than AO ever will be (the only other reading of their opinons that I can see), just not how I read it though. And no, I did not stretch any truths to make the point, but if it gives you thrills to think so be my guest . . .

As a ps, you quoted my original version that I quickly changed (not quickly enough) as it was not fair to Ero or Foppa, true I have rolled my eyes now and then at some of things posted at times from either of them, but was not fair to do so in this post. My apologies to them and as I said it was quickly changed.

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Old
05-17-2004, 02:52 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
And no, I did not stretch any truths to make the point, but if it gives you thrills to think so be my guest . . .
to me.....saying AO is "almost 19"...and EM is "17" when in fact EM is closer to 18 than AO is 19 is distorting......not sure how you can deny it...but you will...and do......but thats just you I guess.......seeing how you say all my posts are of the AO is god variety.....looks like its your nature

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05-17-2004, 02:58 PM
  #113
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I think the more interesting question is: Who will be the better NHLer, Malkin or Ovechkin? Or, who will be better, Ovechkin the Capital or Malkin the Penguin???

I am in the minority to be sure, but I still don't think all the draft cards have been played. I'm not convinced that Ovechkin will go to Washington, and I'm not convinced Malkin will go to Pittsburgh. A lot can still happen. For the Caps, I think the Jagr situation has made them re-think their position about 'star' players. Whenever the Caps have been really good (at least in the regular season ), they've played a team-oriented system and their core group included mainly the goalie and 3-4 defensemen. No stars, just a lunch-pail mentality through and through. Of course, with the Jagr situation came expectations and season tickets that now seem to be in danger of disappearing. At least, the expectations are gone but would Ovechkin bring them back too quickly? And how much of a box-office impact would Ovechkin make in D.C. anyway? I think McPhee, Leonsis and co. are weighing all of these issues right now.

As for Pittsburgh, there's the whole IIHF/NHL/Russian Hockey Federation thing. I'm not convinced that the Pens will take Malkin, mainly because they may want to go a 'safer' route--which is ironic because if you take a CHLer normally that's considered more of a risk, since a Euro draftee can be your property seemingly forever. But the transfer fees issue may make people shy away from Malkin. THEREFORE, it's important to read articles like this one that talk of Malkin moving closer and closer to Ovechkin in some scouts' eyes. If true, then I think Patrick would roll the transfer fee dice and take Malkin.

As for Ovechkin and Malkin in the pros, it's NOT a stretch to project Malkin's numbers better than Ovechkin IF Evgeny suits up for the Pens and Alexander for the Caps. Malkin's linemate might be Mario Lemieux; Ovechkin's linemate might be Jeff Halpern.

Ya never know.

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05-17-2004, 03:00 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
Not an entirely fair comparison, I am sure that AO vs. Crosby would be a notch in AO's belt at this stage too, Crosby being what, still 16 or just 17? I think that whatever scouts are excited about Malkin and who are using the 'close the gap' talk are projecting, remember AO is a full year almost older than Malkin, and the difference between 17 and 18 (almost 19) could be huge, not only another year of hockey experience under the belt but in growth. It is safe to say that AO has not had the growth spurt in his game that Malkin has in his this past year, that much at least is apparent, and perhaps expected as AO did not have much to grow into. It is also safe to say that Malkin is exceeding expectations, and scouts are projecting out another year for Malkin and expecting similar progress. They may be wrong, how many enter their draft year (or their career post draft) expected to do great things and stagnate disappointing the scouts? It happens every year, but most scouts seem to think that Malkin will continue to progress.

However, to compare the almost 19 year old AO with the 17 going on 18 EM is ridiculous, Malkin is not at that level, what scouts are thinking about is where they think EM will be in a year.

I count no less than six times that I say implied or outright that the difference is a year . . . congrats though you blurred the point I was making with this stupid back and forth . . . before this degenerates further, I am stopping my participation in this particular subject (not thread, but the argument over this stupid word game), go on have the last word and ignore the point of the post . . . I refuse to answer any further . . .

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05-17-2004, 03:12 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I am perfectly calm. And yes, you did say something wrong, IMO. Just pointing out that your argument was weak. Obviously, if we have to wait for prospects to be in the NHL to have an opinion, we might as well shut this place down.

We all know EroCaps by now. It's not going to be hard for you to not pay attention to him or to point out when he's out to lunch (happens daily). But at the same time, you gotta be fair.

If you honestly believe that it is too soon to make a harmless statement such as (quote) "Ev. Malkin could be a better player than Ovechkin, but I wouldn't say it's probable." and that we should wait for them to be in the NHL... then I have to ask, why the hell are you wasting your time at HF?

That's what the site is about, in case you didn't notice.
Vlad, why do you take everything so personally? How many personal jabs are you going to make? What exactly have I said that you disagree with? Who conditioned you to read every one of my posts as snide or derisive? They aren't.

Pens fans are making this redundant, not me.

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05-17-2004, 05:03 PM
  #116
montreal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I dont pretend to have tapes of WJC games....or RSL...or whatever....like others do......


I have 2 Malkin tapes and 1 Ovechkin tape from this year in the RSL if you want to see them. It's in Russian but you can read their jersey numbers. Malkin sticks out easy. He plays on a line with Nucks prospect Gladskikh. It's against CSKA (Zherdev, Kastsitsyn, Moyzakin, Kosamachev all play) and AK Bars ( Alexander Drozdetsky, Korneev) Norm Mircale is the goalie for Magnitogorsk.

No pretending. I have other games as well from the RSL.

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05-17-2004, 05:06 PM
  #117
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I don't really know Malkin but I've heard thing on him that's remind me of Sergei Fedorov.

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05-17-2004, 05:06 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Vlad, why do you take everything so personally? How many personal jabs are you going to make? What exactly have I said that you disagree with? Who conditioned you to read every one of my posts as snide or derisive? They aren't.

Pens fans are making this redundant, not me.
Again, I wouldn't worry about what Vlad thinks. He is too busy with his little Mario hate fetish to take seriously.

If I was a Caps fan, I would probably be upset that there is any kind of talk that Ovechkin isn't the best player in his draft class.

That is understandable.

Obviously since the Caps hold the #1 pick, you want them to get the best player.

No fan wants to go back and play the "what if" game, 4-5 years from now. You want your team to draft the right player.

However, people can't seem to separate the fact that Ovheckin having a successful career will not make Malkin a lesser player.

Both can have very good NHL careers, and I feel they will.

What separates them, in my mind, will not be points, but how many championships each respective player wins.

This is how their will careers will ultimately be judged.

As an example:

If Ovechkin ends the 2008 season as the NHL's leading scorer with 100 points, wins all the deserved rewards, then the Caps are knocked out in the first round; On the other side of the coin, Malkin only finishes with 85 points, but is holding the cup over his head by season's end, who is the better player? Who is more valuable to his team? AO or Malkin?

So as I have said over and over again, each player will only be as successful as the team built around them.

Both players have the talent and intangibles to be the centerpiece of a championship team.

That is all that matters, and in this regard, both Cap and Pens fans are lucky. (if both teams choose to draft these two).

It isn't everyday you get to draft a franchise forward.

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05-17-2004, 05:12 PM
  #119
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I think the age issue is going a little bit too far. Sure, it is one year, but you're looking at draft classes.

If the two players start playing in the same year, they'll both be Rookies at the same time. So their comparison and development will be based upon that. Not so much that there's a 10.5 month age gap between the two of them.

The projection of how they'll fill out, does matter some at this point, but I think you're almost looking at a LeBron/Darko situation. Darko might have more upside, because he's a 7foot plus center, who can shoot a mean jumpshot, but he'll have to learn how to play that position in the NBA, more so then a guy who just goes out and scores. LeBron can come in right away and probably establish himself as an excellent player.

While I don't feel those two parallel each other exactly, I think in the short run (minus the Lemieux deal, who could help a random AHL castoff score 40-50 points in a full year of being on his line) Ovechkin will be the more complete and solid NHL'er. Having more of an impact from the get go. While Malkin, because he still needs to add weight to his frame (which couldn't hurt Ovechkin as well) learn the more power-forward type game that will be required out of a 6-4ish centerman in the Eastern Conference will take a bit longer to master.

Projection wise, it is always tempting to take a Centerman more so then a winger. But we'll see on who turns out better.

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05-17-2004, 05:35 PM
  #120
Jaded-Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
I think the age issue is going a little bit too far. Sure, it is one year, but you're looking at draft classes.

If the two players start playing in the same year, they'll both be Rookies at the same time. So their comparison and development will be based upon that. Not so much that there's a 10.5 month age gap between the two of them.

The projection of how they'll fill out, does matter some at this point, but I think you're almost looking at a LeBron/Darko situation. Darko might have more upside, because he's a 7foot plus center, who can shoot a mean jumpshot, but he'll have to learn how to play that position in the NBA, more so then a guy who just goes out and scores. LeBron can come in right away and probably establish himself as an excellent player.

While I don't feel those two parallel each other exactly, I think in the short run (minus the Lemieux deal, who could help a random AHL castoff score 40-50 points in a full year of being on his line) Ovechkin will be the more complete and solid NHL'er. Having more of an impact from the get go. While Malkin, because he still needs to add weight to his frame (which couldn't hurt Ovechkin as well) learn the more power-forward type game that will be required out of a 6-4ish centerman in the Eastern Conference will take a bit longer to master.

Projection wise, it is always tempting to take a Centerman more so then a winger. But we'll see on who turns out better.
Actually that was a well thought out post . . . just one thing, I was the one who was talking about the 10.5 month (almost a year I said) difference and used it mostly as a reason of perhaps explaining why some scouts are projecting Malkin to be close to AO in potential, rather than seeing them as saying that Malkin currently is at or close to AO's level, though maybe that is what some are saying.

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05-17-2004, 05:37 PM
  #121
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <Mr Jiggyfly>
Again, I wouldn't worry about what Vlad thinks. He is too busy with his little Mario hate fetish to take seriously.
The fact I think he has been a subpar owner does not mean I have a hate fetish for Mario.

I fail to see what he has to do with the thread anyway.

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05-17-2004, 05:52 PM
  #122
Mr Jiggyfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
The fact I think he has been a subpar owner does not mean I have a hate fetish for Mario.

I fail to see what he has to do with the thread anyway.
What does saying Sharkie is full of BS and EroCaps is out to lunch (almost daily) have to do with this thread?

The irony...

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05-17-2004, 06:07 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
but yet your "difference between 17 and 18 (almost 19)" statement makes it sound like its more like 2 years difference......
I think its safe to say that 99% of the people on this board have passed first grade math. It's hard to pull the wool over people's eyes in terms of simple addition these days.

And even if you are correct Mothra, This is not a no spin zone. Almost everyone on here has an agenda of some sort when they drop a post here. Its pointless to argue over.

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05-17-2004, 07:35 PM
  #124
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What bunk. Malkin #1 overall? Pure pork. That's all that need be said.

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05-17-2004, 07:38 PM
  #125
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Malkin is like 10 months younger than Ovechkin.

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