With this sentence, obviously Frolov is not part of the new "core", and Dean is prioritizing certain voids that will prevent re-signing Frolov.
The biggest need is scoring up front. So ask yourself this, would you really want to pay Frolov 4.5+ to fill that hole? Dean Lombardi made up his mind long ago; he wants something different. Frolov is worthy on some nights, but there is too much inconsistency, and quite frankly this teams needs a different dynamic; a different type of player.
Now I'm sure Dean would welcome Frolov back -- as a 3rd line checker. This is where the "right price" talks come from. It does not make sense to have an expensive 3rd line if you want to keep any core together, it's as simple as that. Frolov will be replaced by a cheaper solution, as it should.
I'm not one of the biggest fan of Frolov.............
but how dynamic would you be when 2 guys pinning you to the board
in this ridiculous board Rugby style?????
Believe me, Frolov would be a fast dynamic player.
He will proof that at his next team with a hockey coach.
If he really ends in Detroit he will be a 35-40 goal wing and make Lombardi and especially Murray looking stupid.
I agree with everything here except the "motivating Frolov" part, which I guess would tie into the last part as well. Frolov is about to turn 28. He's played 7 years in the NHL, all with LA. He is what he is. The odds of that changing are slim to none and have been so for awhile. The Kings organization as a whole (Lombardi included) have been trying to force a square peg into a round whole with Frolov for a long time. To no one's surprise it didn't work. He wasn't a 21 year old prospect to mold. He was an established NHLer. If he didn't fit, move him.
With that I think it is fair for Kings fans to question his handling by the organization and mainly Lombardi. Is anyone here surprised that Frolov is still the same Frolov? I'm not and Lombardi and co. shouldn't be either. If they determined that Frolov (this version, the only version he's ever been) wasn't a part of their long term plans, we have the right to question why we could be potentially losing him for nothing when he could have been moved a year or two ago for valuable assets that would be helping us now. I agree moving him this year at the deadline wouldn't have been wise given the return as you say on a "diminishing asset" but it's Lombardi and co. that let that asset's value get to that point.
I don't think Frolov is exactly the same Frolov. I think his defense and physicality picked up big time since Murray put him in the checking role.
I think Frolov is adaptable, and fit both roles well. However his offensive game disappears at times, while his defensive game is much more consistent, which is why I think he fits the checking role well.
I don't think its a square peg, round hole situation. I think its a tom-A-to/tom-ah-to situation. More a pick your poison.
Also, it seems like since you are content with saying "Frolov is what he is, stop trying to change him", that you are almost condemning DL and Murray for thinking optimistically about Frolov. I can't say there isn't such a thing as optimism to a fault, because there is, but I also can't blame the Kings' as an organization for always trying to push Frolov further along.
He's frustrating, plain and simple. Even his biggest fans have known this. You don't get called an enigma for nothing.
Finally, I think the Frolov that Frolov is, is something Dean would like to keep on the team. But that's where the "for what price?" question comes into play. Its not a matter of them only being willing to keep him if he evolved. I think they are happy to keep him for what he brings to the table, but not willing to pay him for what they hope he could bring to the table.
Sure, Frolov would put up more points with Kopitar. But he wasn't exactly getting no minutes or no PP time. He could have put up more points than he did this year in the exact same role he was in. Frolov not shooting enough, curling away from the net too often, and not cashing in on ANY breakaways have nothing to do his checking line role or not playing with Kopi. If Frolov shot more and scored on his breakaways, there's your other 5-8 goals right there and all of a sudden perhaps DL is willing to pony up another mill or two for a 25-30 goal scoring checking line winger, which is a HUGE asset any team would want.
Doesn't anyone ever wonder why Frolov's a social misfit? At least, that's how it appears. The media don't seem to like him very much with his less than enthusiastic interviews. The guy rarely ever smiles or even seem happy. I can see a lot of guys on the team clowning around together, having a good time, but I don't see Fro in the mix. He seems like an outsider looking in.
I've always wondered "what if" Fro had been groomed to be a #1 center, way back in 01-02, and had those expectations on him. I think he had the tools to be great, but it will remain unknown.
Smyth is overpaid, obviously, but that doesn't mean Lombardi should overpay Frolov as well.
No, it doesn't mean that, but what DL SAID is undercut by what he DID in taking on Smyth's contract.
As I have said before (and everyone who has been on this board for a while knows I have,) is that you have to evaluate DL's statements, not on their own, but in relationship to everything else he has done. When you take the logic of "we cant pay Frolov because he's not producing at the 40 goal level" you then have to look at who else on the team is being paid at that level and what their production is. In that analysis Ryan Smyth sticks out like a sore thumb.
Playing Frolov as a third liner doesnt allow him the opportunity to play to his potential. To then utilize the result of that decision to justify not paying him for his potential is a self serving excuse. If you want some one to perform to their potential you need to give them that opportunity. No one here can say he was given that chance.
I don't think Frolov is exactly the same Frolov. I think his defense and physicality picked up big time since Murray put him in the checking role.
I think Frolov is adaptable, and fit both roles well. However his offensive game disappears at times, while his defensive game is much more consistent, which is why I think he fits the checking role well.
I don't think its a square peg, round hole situation. I think its a tom-A-to/tom-ah-to situation. More a pick your poison.
I agree with this but that wasn't really what I was intending, although I didn't make it clear. He's obviously become a more well rounded player but I was more referring to the slagging he always takes over "There's more to him. There's another level he can hit. If he wasn't so aloof and inconsistent, he could be there." That has never changed and most likely never will. For starters, I don't necessarily agree there's another level other than a 30-35g, 30-35a guy. Consistency is one of the big characteristics that separate guys into the varying levels of success. He's aloof, that's his personality and it ain't changing. That's where I fault Lombardi and co. Frolov is at fault too though. You have to have the determination to drive yourself to improve. That's what IMO separates Crosby from Ovechkin. Crosby, himself, identifies his weaknesses and addresses them, see faceoffs and shooting more. Ovechkin? He keeps ramming ahead with the same plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM
Also, it seems like since you are content with saying "Frolov is what he is, stop trying to change him", that you are almost condemning DL and Murray for thinking optimistically about Frolov. I can't say there isn't such a thing as optimism to a fault, because there is, but I also can't blame the Kings' as an organization for always trying to push Frolov further along.
He's frustrating, plain and simple. Even his biggest fans have known this. You don't get called an enigma for nothing.
I would agree to a point. 24/25 year old Frolov? Okay, great. I'm on board with the optimism. 27/28 year old Frolov with the same issues I mention above? Blind optimism. Part of Lombardi and co. job is player evaluation, which includes their potential. It's also the same optimism that we saw Lombardi challenge Brown with and now we see a hell of a lot more dangling, one-on-one play, and shooting from him, which doesn't suit his game. Brown can be a consistent a 30-30 guy with a punishing physical game that crashed the net. He's trying to change to fit IMO blind optimism. Granted, it's a fine line and organizations, even the best ones, will screw it up. That doesn't mean they should get a free pass though either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM
Finally, I think the Frolov that Frolov is, is something Dean would like to keep on the team. But that's where the "for what price?" question comes into play. Its not a matter of them only being willing to keep him if he evolved. I think they are happy to keep him for what he brings to the table, but not willing to pay him for what they hope he could bring to the table.
Sure, Frolov would put up more points with Kopitar. But he wasn't exactly getting no minutes or no PP time. He could have put up more points than he did this year in the exact same role he was in. Frolov not shooting enough, curling away from the net too often, and not cashing in on ANY breakaways have nothing to do his checking line role or not playing with Kopi. If Frolov shot more and scored on his breakaways, there's your other 5-8 goals right there and all of a sudden perhaps DL is willing to pony up another mill or two for a 25-30 goal scoring checking line winger, which is a HUGE asset any team would want.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I hope I'm not coming off as only Lombardi and co. are culpable in all this, they're not. I just think it was bad asset management the way it has been handled. Frolov is just as culpable if not more. All the things you point out are valid in what he could have done this year. And as I said before, I'm not advocating we pay Frolov 4/5 million per year. I hope he decides to take a discount compared to the other offers he'll get and stay but I don't think he will. I think he'll get lowballed by Lombardi more than we think and he'll move on. I'll still follow the guy and root for him.
__________________ "I have been complimented many times and they always embarrass me; I always feel that they have not said enough." - Mark Twain.
Last edited by William H Bonney: 05-27-2010 at 06:44 PM.
And the Kigns did love him in their top nine. Trading Frolov for prospects and picks would not have been a good idea. It was obvious that the team was ahead of schedule, it was time for the young guys to get some playoff experience. That is going to pay dividends later.
Before the season started did you or anyone really expect the Kings to be a 100+ point team? I highly doubt that was the case. If DL wanted Fro gone, last draft was the time to do it. This led me to believe that DL still believed in Fro.
Quote:
Get used to the idea now that the Kings should be a playoff team for quite some time. When that happens you don't trade a guy simply because his contract is up at the end of the season.
I'll agree. Frolov was more important to us than that first round draft pick we would have received.
Quote:
I used to hope Dean kinda liked Fro, but I think he has moved on.
I partially agree. I think Frolov is out of Dean's price range at this point...
I'm not one of the biggest fan of Frolov.............
but how dynamic would you be when 2 guys pinning you to the board
in this ridiculous board Rugby style?????
Believe me, Frolov would be a fast dynamic player.
He will proof that at his next team with a hockey coach.
If he really ends in Detroit he will be a 35-40 goal wing and make Lombardi and especially Murray looking stupid.
What I meant was this team needs a different style of player. Frolov's game is built behind the net, with his excellent puck protection skills etc. For a team that lacks any scoring punch or shooters, it would be best if Dean acquires another Justin Williams-type, someone in that realm, just something different.
Playing Frolov as a third liner doesnt allow him the opportunity to play to his potential. To then utilize the result of that decision to justify not paying him for his potential is a self serving excuse. If you want some one to perform to their potential you need to give them that opportunity. No one here can say he was given that chance.
I think we need to define exactly what 3rd liner means.
Is a 3rd line the one that gets checking minutes against other top lines?
Well, that is Kopitar's job often, and many other 1st lines take on other 1st lines. So that can't be it.
Is a 3rd line the one that gets little to no PP time and less minutes than 6 other forwards?
That's probably it, but it doesn't describe the Frolov-Zus-Simmonds line at all. They saw 2nd line minutes, and provided secondary scoring, checked top opposing lines most nights and Zus and Fro saw regular and consistent PP time.
That doesn't sound like a 3rd line to me.
This team either has 2 second lines or 2 third lines, depending on how you look at it. It is a top 3, middle 6, bottom 3 team.
Which is why we need the other big winger. To make it a top 6, middle 3, bottom 3 team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney
I agree with this but that wasn't really what I was intending, although I didn't make it clear. He's obviously become a more well rounded player but I was more referring to the slagging he always takes over "There's more to him. There's another level he can hit. If he wasn't so aloof and inconsistent, he could be there." That has never changed and most likely never will. For starters, I don't necessarily agree there's another level other than a 30-35g, 30-35a guy. Consistency is one of the big characteristics that separate guys into the varying levels of success. He's aloof, that's his personality and it ain't changing. That's where I fault Lombardi and co. Frolov is at fault too though. You have to have the determination to drive yourself to improve. That's what IMO separates Crosby from Ovechkin. Crosby, himself, identifies his weaknesses and addresses them, see faceoffs and shooting more. Ovechkin? He keeps ramming ahead with the same plan.
I would agree to a point. 24/25 year old Frolov? Okay, great. I'm on board with the optimism. 27/28 year old Frolov with the same issues I mention above? Blind optimism. Part of Lombardi and co. job is player evaluation, which includes their potential. It's also the same optimism that we saw Lombardi challenge Brown with and now we see a hell of a lot more dangling, one-on-one play, and shooting from him, which doesn't suit his game. Brown can be a consistent a 30-30 guy with a punishing physical game that crashed the net. He's trying to change to fit IMO blind optimism. Granted, it's a fine line and organizations, even the best ones, will screw it up. That doesn't mean they should get a free pass though either.
Awesome post. I will disagree or parse terms no longer, you've convinced me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I hope I'm not coming off as only Lombardi and co. are culpable in all this, they're not. I just think it was bad asset management the way it has been handled. Frolov is just as culpable if not more. All the things you point out are valid in what he could have done this year. And as I said before, I'm not advocating we pay Frolov 4/5 million per year. I hope he decides to take a discount compared to the other offers he'll get and stay but I don't think he will. I think he'll get lowballed by Lombardi more than we think and he'll move on. I'll still follow the guy and root for him.
Again, agree. I think DL will lowball, probably starting off with like 2 years, 5.5 or 6 million. Which is a VERY low offer. He will probably be willing to go up to 3 years @ 3.5-3.75 mill each. It will be on Frolov to not get upset at the initial offer and see it as the low-ball starting point it is, and/or decide if he wants to continue playing here without a raise.
Personally, I think Frolov is worth exactly what he was paid this year and last. Other than more years and more experience, I don't really feel he deserves a raise on this team. If he wants the raise, he'll have to look elsewhere, and as much as it breaks my heart for Frolov to go, I think that is what is best for all parties if Frolov wants a bigger role and more money, which he is entitled to go after and I won't hold against him.
I don't think that was his intention. I think he meant we're already stuck with Smyth's bad contract so we can't afford to overpay Frolov.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM
Basically.
So what DL could/should have said is I cant sign Frolov to the contract he is likely worth because I'm stuck paying Smyth 6.5MM he's not putting up much better numbers than Frolov?
Quote:
Fro was put in a position where he excelled, playing top checking line minutes and putting up secondary scoring. The difference is whether Frolov wants to be paid for that role or for a primary scoring role, which is not where he was best served on this team. I thought the checking role was great for Frolov, because he is damn good at it.
But, and this is a big but, now because he did exactly what you asked of him, and although he could provide offense that he cant in his assigned role, we have to let him go because he's not providing the offense of a 30 goal scorer but wants to be paid as one. It makes no sense to take him to task in that manner, and the distinction between DL and how TM used him is a meaningless one because its all
Kings management.
As for the last part of your post, it is just abundantly clear it doesn't matter what DL says, you will find the worst way to look at it.
You have a problem with him saying "Fro is good but could be better"?
That's the truth. That's what EVERYONE in the league, on the team and in the fan base has been saying about Frolov for his entire career. [/QUOTE]\
And he could be better, but playing with Kopitar and getting offensive opportunities that he will never get playing with Handzus and whoever else is on line three. his fault? I think NOT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost
This intangible insider info stuff has no weight whatsoever on this discussion because we have no idea what it might be and therefore can only make our opinions based on what we believe to be the facts.
May not impact our discussion, but it defintely impacts the team's decision.
Geez, you guys want Fro back under reasonable salary. You guys also want Modin back for a league minimum or something close to that. We already brought Parse back. Hey, why not just bring back Halpern and Jones so, we can suck out in the playoffs again!!!???
This team needs some major tweaking and bringing back all your fave players ain't gonna fix the problem. There are same number of roster spots as there were last year. Somewhere along the line, we need to part with our players so we can bring in some new blood.
Personally, I think Frolov is worth exactly what he was paid this year and last. Other than more years and more experience, I don't really feel he deserves a raise on this team. If he wants the raise, he'll have to look elsewhere, and as much as it breaks my heart for Frolov to go, I think that is what is best for all parties if Frolov wants a bigger role and more money, which he is entitled to go after and I won't hold against him.
Yeah, that's pretty much my stance on it as well. The bold part is one I think a lot of Frolov supporters/Lombardi detractors are overlooking, although they make some valid points as well. I'm not saying Frolov isn't worth more than what Lombardi will offer him overall but what is he worth to this team? And I dislike Murray more than most but he's the coach and how a player fits with that system helps determine the pay. The same justification was used by Boston with Kessel and Julien. We can't afford to keep everyone and even when we dump Smyth/Stoll/Zeus, that money is still needed to pay for Doughty/Johnson/Simmer/a big free agent, etc. We can't keep everyone. Sometimes you have to draw the line in the sand. And as much as I love Frolov, I'd rather it be him than with Johnson or Simmonds.
Last edited by William H Bonney: 05-27-2010 at 07:14 PM.
For those who want Fro back, have you even considered where we're going to play all the LWs? Smyth, Fro, Richie, Parse (lw or rw). Don't we need to add Kovy or some other impact player somewhere?
In my wonder-world, we resign Fro for his current salary, add Kovalchuk and dump Williams and have Parse play RW.
Hell, I would sign Frolov for the rest of his career if he would take a Franzen-like discount. I think if we have Kovy on the 1st line, Smyth on the 2nd, Frolov on the 3rd, then we are one hell of a dangerous team.
For those who want Fro back, have you even considered where we're going to play all the LWs? Smyth, Fro, Richie, Parse (lw or rw). Don't we need to add Kovy or some other impact player somewhere?
Well one, we can't assume Lombardi plans on adding any impact players. We want that but will it actually happen?
Two, you still have to think long term. Richie can play center. He's a multi tool. You keep guys like that. Smyth is gone in a year or two. Fro is probably gone. Depth. Depth is good. Look at Philly this year.
Doesn't anyone ever wonder why Frolov's a social misfit? At least, that's how it appears. The media don't seem to like him very much with his less than enthusiastic interviews. The guy rarely ever smiles or even seem happy. I can see a lot of guys on the team clowning around together, having a good time, but I don't see Fro in the mix. He seems like an outsider looking in.
Fro's best and only friend = Sean Avery
Makes me wonder...
LOL - where the hell do you guys come up with this stuff?
DL won't pay Visnovsky 5.5, or Cammalleri 5-6, Frolov (3.5?) but will pay Smyth 6.2, Williams 3.5, Stoll 3.5, Scuderi 3.5 and Greene 3?
Don't get me wrong, I like Greene and Scuderi, but thats alot of change for guys who in an ideal world should be your #4 and #6 d-man.
As for the rest, it doesn't bother you that Smyth, Williams and Stoll will be making over 13 million this season. Maybe the Kings can't afford Frolov in a cap world, but that is largely because of the 3 guys above that DL all acquired, who IMO are pretty highly overpaid. Smyth slowed down significantly last season, to the point that he became a liability in the playoffs, same with Williams...and Stoll did nothing at ES last season.
Smyth's contract is going to be a major obstacle, especially next summer when Doughty, JJ and Simmonds all need to be re-signed, and before you guys mention Handzus, yes his contract is off the books next summer, but he was one of the Kings most valuable all around players, its going to be a huge loss if we can't re-sign him because Ryan Smyth is being paid like a star LW when he very clearly isn't.
