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Kulemin talks at standstill: Kulemin wants NHL contract.

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Old
05-28-2010, 11:47 AM
  #76
Morguee
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Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
he never once said he wants to go to the KHL. Will people stop saying that!! He will just sign with another NHL team. There are 29 others!
Fair enough, takle out the KHL quote and its still an overpayment @ $3mil compared to other players.

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05-28-2010, 11:52 AM
  #77
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People seem to forget all the other **** Kulemin does for us as well. He plays on the PK and does a good ****ing job of it; he's been good in the shootout; and he's easily our best defensive-forward.

I bet if he's not out there with Bozak and Kessel they're point-totals suffer. He digs out pucks, causes turnovers, hits guys and basically does everything Kessel and Bozak need to be successful. I mean, Bozak tries to do some of these things but just isn't big enough - and Kessel is basically a joke in terms of hitting, forechecking and puck-retrieval.

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05-28-2010, 11:56 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
$3M for 31 and 36 point seasons lol

Is Kulemin eligible for arbitration? It might just end up going there.

lol

Grabovski's contract was obviously a mistake and I wouldn't be surprised if he's traded in the offseason. He still produced more than Kulemin did though.
Grabo had 48 points in 78 games in his rookie year and was partially paid on potential. Kulemin will likely be paid a bit on potential aswell, but that's what jutifies a salary in the low-mid $2s. Think of the Grabo deal structured as $2.4/$2.9/$3.4 and that's a pretty good deal for Toronto when you take into account that he is still improving.

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Originally Posted by andymack1986 View Post
Even $2.25 is an overpayment, but I think we could all swallow it because we are confident that he can grow into a good second line player. But seriously, Nikolai has not been able to translate his offensive game he had in Russia, so before we start thinking north of $3M then he has to put up quite some consecutive 25-goal seasons in my opinion. Ponikarovsky, who was shelled constantly by us this season, still made less than what Nik was looking for even after proving he had consistent second liner production and five consecutive 20-goal seasons (well, one season w/ 19).

Kulie has to take a bridge contract offer for two or three years at least before he starts looking at big money. If not, have fun with -30 weather, twelve hour flights between games, and borscht.
Of course it is, but with young players you either have to give them a 1-year deal or pay based on potential. Seeing as the difference between paying for potential and not is going to be no more than about $500k on the cap this year, it problably makes sense to pay now for a lower cap hit in the future.

This is what Kulemin's max potential contracts should look like.
Year 1 = $1.75 (Cap hit of $1.75 if he signs a 1-year)
Year 2 = $2.25 (Cap hit of $2 if he signs a 2-year deal)
Year 3 = $2.75 (Cap hit of $2.25 if he signs a 3-year deal)
Year 4 = $3.0 (Cap hit of $2.4375 if he signs a 4-year deal)

If I was Burke, I'd push for the 3-year deal, as that would still keep him an RFA. Once agreed upon that level of compensation, you could theoretically flip it to a frontloaded contract so that he gains interest on it and his effective income is higher.

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05-28-2010, 11:57 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by 080 View Post
People seem to forget all the other **** Kulemin does for us as well. He plays on the PK and does a good ****ing job of it; he's been good in the shootout; and he's easily our best defensive-forward.

I bet if he's not out there with Bozak and Kessel they're point-totals suffer. He digs out pucks, causes turnovers, hits guys and basically does everything Kessel and Bozak need to be successful. I mean, Bozak tries to do some of these things but just isn't big enough - and Kessel is basically a joke in terms of hitting, forechecking and puck-retrieval.
Nobody denies that but at what price? I think everyone agrees he is a very good player.

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05-28-2010, 11:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Kulemin's reputation is exceeding his actual performance. He's a decent hockey player with potential, but he isn't worth anything close to 3 million at this point. He's not great defensively, he's simply capable. He works hard, but he isn't a fantastic grinder. He has shown some offensive abilities, but hasn't produced. Kulemin doesn't have anything that truly stands out beyond his stats. He isn't a good fighter, he isn't a defensive specialist, he isn't a physical force and he isn't a leader. $2.5 is an overpayment, he should come in at $2 mill or less if he's getting market value.
His monetary value compared to what he brings is in my opinion easily greater than Grabovski's.

That being said, I was adamant that Grabovski was overpaid for what he brought to the table.

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05-28-2010, 12:05 PM
  #81
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Yeah, I figured there was a problem as I said in the other thread about this a while back.

Kulemin would be nice to keep but by no means is indispensable. With the number's he's put up about half what he's asking for would be reasonable.

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05-28-2010, 12:06 PM
  #82
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If he's asking for $3 million a year, I hope it's because he's pushing for a relatively long term(3-5 years).

If it's just for two years like you would expect, then that is really high. I like Kulemin and would probably cave just because I'm that confident in him, but I certainly understand why Burke would want to play hardball or possibly even shop him if that's the case.

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05-28-2010, 12:07 PM
  #83
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Nobody denies that but at what price? I think everyone agrees he is a very good player.
What is Wayne Simmonds worth? He's essentially a Canadian-Kulemin. I don't think if he signed for 3 million people would be *****ing - they'd be going "****, I'm glad we've got Simmond's locked up for a few more years."

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05-28-2010, 12:13 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by 080 View Post
People seem to forget all the other **** Kulemin does for us as well. He plays on the PK and does a good ****ing job of it; he's been good in the shootout; and he's easily our best defensive-forward.

I bet if he's not out there with Bozak and Kessel they're point-totals suffer. He digs out pucks, causes turnovers, hits guys and basically does everything Kessel and Bozak need to be successful. I mean, Bozak tries to do some of these things but just isn't big enough - and Kessel is basically a joke in terms of hitting, forechecking and puck-retrieval.
I agree......We can't let him get away, he could very well be on the verge of a breakout season. He'll turn 24 in a month or so and has already shown great chemistry with Bozak and Kessel. Kulie is the type of player that can play on the top 2 lines and make everyone else more productive from the little things he does well.

From his perspective I don't blame him in asking for 3m. I'm pretty sure him and Grabo have the same agent and Kulie is definitely more valuable to the team, not in point production but intangibles......If Burke wont pay him 3, I'm sure there will be a list of teams who are willing. We are not in a position to let someone walk over less then a million indifference. Remember Antropov @4m vs. Grabo @3m? I know I, wish we could do that one again.

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05-28-2010, 12:16 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BrannigansLaw View Post
No, his potential is based on the flashes of offensive skill and and consistently gritty play. He is easily our best two-way forward at his young age. It's not all about points, which as a Schenn fan I'm sure you'll understand.
You're overrating him. Waaaay overrating him.

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05-28-2010, 12:17 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
$3.25 is a gross overpayment based on what Kulemin has proven so far. $2.25 is closer to fair value.
I agree. You reward a player for past achievement not potential. His point total from last year doesn't equate to his demands. I think 3 years 7.5 million is appropriate, with bonuses that take him up to 3 if he hits them.

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05-28-2010, 12:20 PM
  #87
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Well Kulemin is never gonna be a 60 point man, he had a good two way game last season and he was the best improved player on the Leafs. But lets not forget that this team finished 2nd last and actually almost everyone underarchieved from what they were able to do. Therefore I Like the news BB is not going to overpay Kulemin.

Time will help...

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05-28-2010, 12:21 PM
  #88
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Someone asked about arbitration-I didn't see an answer, is he eligible?

Also, IF there were an offersheet involved, it would be for the 2011 draft correct (maybe this is how Burke gets his first rounder back as well as a third).

The Staal trade proposal sounds intriguing. However if Burke has it in his mind that Bozak and Kadri are going to be 1-2 down the middle in 2-3 years-then Staal simply steps into a third line role, unless he ends up bumping Bozak or Kadri down the depth chart-how old is Staal? 22? 23?

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05-28-2010, 12:28 PM
  #89
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Wow first contract negotiation after a modest break out year and he's already playing hardball. I liked the NHL better back when you had to do something to get a pay day.

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05-28-2010, 12:28 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
The problem I can see, is what is going to happen, next off season, when Stalberg
(@ 20g), Schenn and Gunnarsson come-a-calling.
What is going to happen next season is J.S. Giguere coming off the books....

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05-28-2010, 12:29 PM
  #91
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Give him Grabo money only if Grabo gets shipped out.

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05-28-2010, 12:31 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Swissleaf13 View Post
Well Kulemin is never gonna be a 60 point man, he had a good two way game last season and he was the best improved player on the Leafs. But lets not forget that this team finished 2nd last and actually almost everyone underarchieved from what they were able to do. Therefore I Like the news BB is not going to overpay Kulemin.

Time will help...
I disagree. I think Kulemin's offense will come this year... He has very good offensive tallent that he displayed in the KHL, and started to learn how to use it on the smaller ice surface in the last half of last season IMO.

I see Kulemin hitting 60 points. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Kulemin hit 70 points at some point in his career.

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05-28-2010, 12:35 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Yeah, I figured there was a problem as I said in the other thread about this a while back.

Kulemin would be nice to keep but by no means is indispensable. With the number's he's put up about half what he's asking for would be reasonable.
You would be right about the problem. At Burke's season ending press conference in early April he was asked about RFA's in particular Gustavsson and Kulemin.

Burke said Nonis was actively working on them at present. A few weeks later mid April Gustavsson's new 2 year deal was announced. Now as we approach nearly 2 months from then Kulemin remains unsigned and now news of a contract dispute is surfacing..

I think a potential outcome could be a real short deal for even 1 year or max perhaps 2, where then Kulemin could produce and prove he is worth bigger money as he is seeking and take what Burke is offering more than what he wants.

Longer term deals while they provide some security are harder to pin down $$$ wise as the player he is in year 1, usually is not the same player in years 3-5 etc. So longer term deals pay on potential, which is more than present day stats dictate.

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05-28-2010, 12:39 PM
  #94
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What is Wayne Simmonds worth? He's essentially a Canadian-Kulemin. I don't think if he signed for 3 million people would be *****ing - they'd be going "****, I'm glad we've got Simmond's locked up for a few more years."

Hold on there killer. I think Kulemin is a fantastic player but as one poster showed players with his kinds of numbers were in the 1.75-2mill range. Sure he is a good grinder but you just can't unload the cart to him. He is a fine NHL'er and a good player for the Leafs but we just can't go over paying for guys just for the sake of potential or the threat of the KHL. He is playing first line minutes on this team. Most teams in the league he would be struggling to get third line minutes. Let's not forget that. I think he is a valuable commodity but if you are going to pay 3mill for a player with 16 goals then that throws your cap out of whack. You want to give him a contract with bonuses that is one thing. You want to give him an increasing contract like 2.0, 2.5, 3.0 then that is another thing. He still needs to prove himself in the NHL. He just has one good year, actually 2/3 of a good year. Gustavsson signed for much less and even he said he has to prove his worth in the NHL. So, let's not jump over board and throw the bank at the guy-that is sense of entitlement. Let him earn it. I am sure if he scores 35 goals in a couple of years management will have no problem re-doing the guys contract.

Remember 16 goals and 20 assists does not make for offensive juggernaut money. All those things he does. Chip, bang, grind, defensive responsibility, digging in the corners. You expect that from a guy that is scoring less than 20 goals per year. He is not doing anything that he shouldn't be doing. I still think that if Burke brings in another forward he will be on the first line and Kullemin slides into the 2nd line. Can't be throwing money at any one.

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05-28-2010, 12:41 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
You would be right about the problem. At Burke's season ending press conference in early April he was asked about RFA's in particular Gustavsson and Kulemin.

Burke said Nonis was actively working on them at present. A few weeks later mid April Gustavsson's new 2 year deal was announced. Now as we approach nearly 2 months from then Kulemin remains unsigned and now news of a contract dispute is surfacing..

I think a potential outcome could be a real short deal for even 1 year or max perhaps 2, where then Kulemin could produce and prove he is worth bigger money as he is seeking and take what Burke is offering more than what he wants.

Longer term deals while they provide some security are harder to pin down $$$ wise as the player he is in year 1, usually is not the same player in years 3-5 etc. So longer term deals pay on potential, which is more than present day stats dictate.
Agreed. He has not played long enough and not produced over the long term to warrant a long term contract yet. 2 years should be just what he is looking for.

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05-28-2010, 12:43 PM
  #96
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You would be right about the problem. At Burke's season ending press conference in early April he was asked about RFA's in particular Gustavsson and Kulemin.

Burke said Nonis was actively working on them at present. A few weeks later mid April Gustavsson's new 2 year deal was announced. Now as we approach nearly 2 months from then Kulemin remains unsigned and now news of a contract dispute is surfacing..

I think a potential outcome could be a real short deal for even 1 year or max perhaps 2, where then Kulemin could produce and prove he is worth bigger money as he is seeking and take what Burke is offering more than what he wants.

Longer term deals while they provide some security are harder to pin down $$$ wise as the player he is in year 1, usually is not the same player in years 3-5 etc. So longer term deals pay on potential, which is more than present day stats dictate.
A short deal would be best for Kulemin. But this is a guy who is a real threat to go to the KHL -- he's not a superstar and there might be a significant difference between what the Russian league wants to pay him and what Burke does. It sounds like that's the direction it's going...Kulemin isn't even worth 2 million let alone 3 at this point. that would be unfortunate but I'm sure we can find somebody to score at least 36 points on the free agent market.

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05-28-2010, 12:54 PM
  #97
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There are many RFAs still unsigned, league-wide

I think it was just the fact that Monster wanted it done before WC and Kulemin wanted to wait till after.

Obviously I'm a LITTLE concerned, but I'm confident that if his demands are ridiculous, Burke won't bend backwards to sign him. Hope I'm right.

C'mon Kulie!

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05-28-2010, 12:57 PM
  #98
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These things get resolved and contracts end up getting signed 99% of the time. Contracts not being signed right after the season is over happens every year in large part because agents are waiting to see what that other guy gets first.

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05-28-2010, 01:02 PM
  #99
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These things get resolved and contracts end up getting signed 99% of the time. Contracts not being signed right after the season is over happens every year in large part because agents are waiting to see what that other guy gets first.
Exactly. No reason to panic as it is all part of negotiations.

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05-28-2010, 01:10 PM
  #100
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A short deal would be best for Kulemin. But this is a guy who is a real threat to go to the KHL -- he's not a superstar and there might be a significant difference between what the Russian league wants to pay him and what Burke does. It sounds like that's the direction it's going...Kulemin isn't even worth 2 million let alone 3 at this point. that would be unfortunate but I'm sure we can find somebody to score at least 36 points on the free agent market.
A short term deal will yield a lower cap hit today....but the problem is that in 3 years you may not have teh benefit of having a player who is underpaid when it matters the most. Benefits like having Zetterberg at $2.65 million, Loui Eriksson at $3.6, etc.

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