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Old
03-08-2010, 10:41 AM
  #1
HomaridII
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Jack Todd today about Gainey

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...286/story.html

I wanted to post this so you guys could read this part:

I heard from a highly placed source in Europe, an expert in hockey on that continent in general and Sweden in particular. His assessment was not flattering to the Canadiens organization: "From a European perspective," he wrote, "the Habs have maybe the worst Euro recruitment in the league. Many clubs have taken the opportunity to sign good Euro free-agents. Not Montreal.

"Considering that 25 to 30 per cent of NHL players are Europeans, a well-run club can not only have European scouts, but you need to have some kind of director of European recruitment, as Detroit has in Hakan Andersson." He was also critical of the way the Canadiens develop the Europeans in their system: "It's not enough to pick a European here and there. A European strategy is needed and this is what has made the Wings what they are. The Canadiens should be the role model, not Detroit. Montreal has done a poor job with Sergei Kostitsyn, Pavel Valentenko, Alexander Perezhogin and I am afraid that AK46 (Andrei Kostitsyn) will never live up to the potential. All these players have been brought up too fast."

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03-08-2010, 10:46 AM
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MathMan
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...Jack Todd.

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03-08-2010, 10:50 AM
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Bill McNeal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...286/story.html

I wanted to post this so you guys could read this part:

I heard from a highly placed source in Europe, an expert in hockey on that continent in general and Sweden in particular. His assessment was not flattering to the Canadiens organization: "From a European perspective," he wrote, "the Habs have maybe the worst Euro recruitment in the league. Many clubs have taken the opportunity to sign good Euro free-agents. Not Montreal.

"Considering that 25 to 30 per cent of NHL players are Europeans, a well-run club can not only have European scouts, but you need to have some kind of director of European recruitment, as Detroit has in Hakan Andersson." He was also critical of the way the Canadiens develop the Europeans in their system: "It's not enough to pick a European here and there. A European strategy is needed and this is what has made the Wings what they are. The Canadiens should be the role model, not Detroit. Montreal has done a poor job with Sergei Kostitsyn, Pavel Valentenko, Alexander Perezhogin and I am afraid that AK46 (Andrei Kostitsyn) will never live up to the potential. All these players have been brought up too fast."
There's so much wrong with this statement it's hard to know where to begin.

The only player that remotely applies to is Sergei and with him it became a matter of bringing him up or losing him for nothing (not to mention the injuries involved).

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03-08-2010, 10:53 AM
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I hate Todd, he's an ass imo, but the Habs have sucked with drafting/signinng FA's out of the Euro leagues, especially Sweden/Finland, this decade.

From 200 draft to now, (Sweden/Finland only)

Drafted
Johan Eneqvist (sweden, '00 109th overall)
Joni Puurula (Finland, '00 243rd overall)
Marrti Jarventie (Finland, '01 109th overall)
Chris Heino-Lindberg (Sweden, '03 177th)
Oskari Korpikiar (Finland, '03 217th)
Nichlas Torp (Sweden, '07 163rd)
Joonas Nattinen (Finland, '09 65th)
Petteri Simila (Finland, '09 211th)

Free Agent Signee
Janne Lahti (Finland, signed '07)
Mikhail Johansson (Sweden, signed '09)
Andreas Engqvist (Sweden, signed '09)

So far nothing to show for a decade of drafting, signing players out of Sweden/Finland. Granted we could still see some good things from Nattinen or Engqvist, or Torp. But so far things have not panned out from that area at all.

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03-08-2010, 10:54 AM
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saints96
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gainey

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03-08-2010, 10:54 AM
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icerocket
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I still say development is more of a problem than drafting.

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03-08-2010, 10:59 AM
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Bullsmith
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Jack Todd's a moron, and an evil one at that. As Montreal notes above, we've had lots of stinker draft choices, but then again we also found Mark Streit, the Kostitsyns, Jaro Halak just to name four people in the league right now. Also it's ridiculous to say we rushed Perezhogin or Valentenko. Hell if we'd rushed him, Valentenko might have stayed. It was being stuck in the A that made him go back. Ditto AK47 who was most defintiely not "pushed too fast", in fact he was kept in the minors.
And as for SK, didn't he get sent down to start the year? How is that rushing him?

I really really really hate Jack Todd. This could be the best article he'll write all year, it's only mostly flawed.

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Old
03-08-2010, 11:00 AM
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Thinly-veiled hatchet-job by one of the city's most abysmal hacks - a guy so clueless he makes Red looked dialed-in.

Whatever you think of Gainey...Jack Todd is a clown.

Loved the part about PK 'taking a long time to work his way to the NHL.' Enjoying the Bahamas Jack?

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03-08-2010, 11:13 AM
  #9
MathMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
But so far things have not panned out from that area at all.
Nattinen is the only player of the lot who was drafted before the 109th spot, and even he was a third-round pick (65th).

I think that has more to do with their lack of NHL playing time than any failure of scouting or development. Guys drafted so late are long shots, European or not.

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03-08-2010, 11:17 AM
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...He's right though. The last good scandinavian player in the organization is Koivu.
He was drafted over 15 years ago.

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03-08-2010, 11:30 AM
  #11
Bullsmith
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Originally Posted by InglewoodJack View Post
...He's right though. The last good scandinavian player in the organization is Koivu.
He was drafted over 15 years ago.
Sure if we limit it to Scandinavians, the habs don't have very good European drafting, but that's only a small part of Europe. It's also only fair to point out that Sweeden has suffered a huge decline in how many NHLers it produced since the days when it was turning out Sundin and Forsberg. According to Pierre McGuire it was due to a focus on team hockey at the expense of developing high level individual skills and has changed now.

Also, as an earlier poster pointed out, we haven't spent any high picks on Swedes or Finns since Koivu, so it's hard to fault the drafting failures. And while we may not find swedes, we OWN Belarus from a scouting point of view. Pretty good with the Swiss too.

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03-08-2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
Sure if we limit it to Scandinavians, the habs don't have very good European drafting, but that's only a small part of Europe. It's also only fair to point out that Sweeden has suffered a huge decline in how many NHLers it produced since the days when it was turning out Sundin and Forsberg. According to Pierre McGuire it was due to a focus on team hockey at the expense of developing high level individual skills and has changed now.

Also, as an earlier poster pointed out, we haven't spent any high picks on Swedes or Finns since Koivu, so it's hard to fault the drafting failures. And while we may not find swedes, we OWN Belarus from a scouting point of view. Pretty good with the Swiss too.
Yeah, but you won't find any very good swedes if you don't scout them. Sure you can gamble on a guy in a low round. Gambles usually fail, hence the absence of scandinavian habs. But I would like to improve the northern European scouting, because there's still a lot of talent there, but it's not hidden talent; it's the guys you have to snatch in the first round.

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Old
03-08-2010, 11:39 AM
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Fire Gainey!
Pierre as GM!


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03-08-2010, 11:40 AM
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French media

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03-08-2010, 11:41 AM
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WhiskeySeven
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Jack Todd? He's worse than Patrick Caisse in my opinion. Skip this trite.

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03-08-2010, 11:41 AM
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Wait, Bob had no plan?

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03-08-2010, 11:45 AM
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I guess someone has assumed the Habs are interested in drafting any of these supposed great players in the first place? From a business perspective, it's a lot cheaper to draft out of NA than over seas. Are there better players over there, not according to the Olympics or World Championships at the senior or junior level.

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03-08-2010, 11:55 AM
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Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
I still say development is more of a problem than drafting.
Pretty impossible to determine. Except when a player does better elsewhere than he does here....And there are examples of that.

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Old
03-08-2010, 11:57 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...286/story.html

I wanted to post this so you guys could read this part:

I heard from a highly placed source in Europe, an expert in hockey on that continent in general and Sweden in particular. His assessment was not flattering to the Canadiens organization: "From a European perspective," he wrote, "the Habs have maybe the worst Euro recruitment in the league. Many clubs have taken the opportunity to sign good Euro free-agents. Not Montreal.

"Considering that 25 to 30 per cent of NHL players are Europeans, a well-run club can not only have European scouts, but you need to have some kind of director of European recruitment, as Detroit has in Hakan Andersson." He was also critical of the way the Canadiens develop the Europeans in their system: "It's not enough to pick a European here and there. A European strategy is needed and this is what has made the Wings what they are. The Canadiens should be the role model, not Detroit. Montreal has done a poor job with Sergei Kostitsyn, Pavel Valentenko, Alexander Perezhogin and I am afraid that AK46 (Andrei Kostitsyn) will never live up to the potential. All these players have been brought up too fast."
And how many teams have professionnal hockey scouts beside Detroit? Beside that, I am happy with the direction this team has taken: picking mostly north american guys. Our euro era was the darkess of this concession. Yes, there was the Detroit russian squad in the '90s, and the swedish one currently... beside that example, I don't see any team winning only with Euros.

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03-08-2010, 11:58 AM
  #20
Whitesnake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I hate Todd, he's an ass imo, but the Habs have sucked with drafting/signinng FA's out of the Euro leagues, especially Sweden/Finland, this decade.

From 200 draft to now, (Sweden/Finland only)

Drafted
Johan Eneqvist (sweden, '00 109th overall)
Joni Puurula (Finland, '00 243rd overall)
Marrti Jarventie (Finland, '01 109th overall)
Chris Heino-Lindberg (Sweden, '03 177th)
Oskari Korpikiar (Finland, '03 217th)
Nichlas Torp (Sweden, '07 163rd)
Joonas Nattinen (Finland, '09 65th)
Petteri Simila (Finland, '09 211th)

Free Agent Signee
Janne Lahti (Finland, signed '07)
Mikhail Johansson (Sweden, signed '09)
Andreas Engqvist (Sweden, signed '09)

So far nothing to show for a decade of drafting, signing players out of Sweden/Finland. Granted we could still see some good things from Nattinen or Engqvist, or Torp. But so far things have not panned out from that area at all.
Sometimes people should just concentrate on the message instead of the messenger. How can people defend the Euros draftings or signings from this organization? What do we have to show for? Nothing to this day with the possibility of seeing both Kostitsyns be important players for our team. But it's not determined yet. Leaves Naatinen and Endqvist to see what they'll do in the future.

But clearly Habs have had all the problems in the world with their Euros. But then, Jack Todd said it so, on the contrary, we must be so succesful....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
And how many teams have professionnal hockey scouts beside Detroit? Beside that, I am happy with the direction this team has taken: picking mostly north american guys. Our euro era was the darkess of this concession. Yes, there was the Detroit russian squad in the '90s, and the swedish one currently... beside that example, I don't see any team winning only with Euros.
There's 2 things here:

1- How was our success with Euros
2 - Are Euros needed to go far.

2nd point is debatable. 1st point isn't.

As far as our North American guys, jury is still out on most of our American picks.

Then, I don't agree with the darknes of this concessison. Look at the 90's 1st rounders and I don't think it has anything to do with euros Maybe more euros instead of the 90's 1st rounders failures would have helped...

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Old
03-08-2010, 12:07 PM
  #21
habfaninvictoria
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Jack Todd is a hack. He doesn't do his research and I doubt his sources are very credible. One interesting thing in his article was his reference to AK46, which I've only seen this board use as a name. Clearly he surfs this board, and based on the temperature in here he rides that opinion. Unfortunately many of the posters in here are kid, fanboys or grossly misinformed.

I'd like to see Todd write an article on draft dodging, a subject on which he is an authority. Perhaps an article on the negative effects of overhyped media on this organization. Leave BG alone, he's gone, can't do any more harm or good, unfortunately all his article does is attack a man who will not ( and should not ) respond to your slander.

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Old
03-08-2010, 12:10 PM
  #22
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Fire Gainey!
Pierre as GM!

Pierre McGuire that is?

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Old
03-08-2010, 12:11 PM
  #23
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A highly placed expert in Europe??..

So, we don't scout Europe, or very little. (According to this ''guy''..)
We don't scout Quebec and Canada, or very little. (According to the bitter Quebecers)
We focus all of our attention on the States??..

Our drafting has been good in general. It's the development and handling of those players that's been bad.
We saw it with Ribeiro and seeing it again with Latendresse.
It seems we're wasting the talent of the Kost broz because we can't develop them properly.
Perez-Grabo are well skilled too, and even though they're not turning out to be superstars of any kind, they were still poorly managed.

I think our drafting has been good in general, I question a lot more the development.

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Old
03-08-2010, 12:13 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Sometimes people should just concentrate on the message instead of the messenger. How can people defend the Euros draftings or signings from this organization? What do we have to show for? Nothing to this day with the possibility of seeing both Kostitsyns be important players for our team. But it's not determined yet. Leaves Naatinen and Endqvist to see what they'll do in the future.

But clearly Habs have had all the problems in the world with their Euros. But then, Jack Todd said it so, on the contrary, we must be so succesful....
But aren't you yourself partly arguing against Todd? Perhaps since we get such a low return on those Europeans we do draft high (Perezhogin) we should think twice about increasing our European content? Plus it's not just the source, it's the stupidity of saying things like Andrei Kostitsyn and Pavel Valentenko were rushed too quickly in their development? Is the guy suggesting Valentenko wouldn't have been playing pro if he'd been in Russia? That in Russia no players are rushed but in the AHL they are?

Seriously, if we have so much trouble with Europeans, why is the answer to draft more of them?

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Old
03-08-2010, 12:27 PM
  #25
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"All these players have been brought up too fast."

That's where Jack Todd looks even dumber. Sergei was brought up too fast, sure, but Andrei and Perezhogin paid their dues in the AHL. That's a fact.

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