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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup 2012

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Old
06-01-2010, 07:22 PM
  #51
Nakawick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
The made up by Canadians part is abotu how it is because of the SC play-offs. because itīs not as Iīve clearly pointed out, how many times doI have to repeat myself??

You make no sense.

The World Championship has nothing to do with comparing the World Cup of Hockey and football Euro

For me it is the same, the 2nd most prestigious international tournament.

The World Cup of Hockey pretty much is just an exhibition tournament. And the hockey games Iīve seen in September were pretty low quality compared to games played in May by the same teams, while those teams were actually preparing for those games since July. Youīre not getting any world class hockey in September.
I would rather see World Cup hockey in September than World Championship hockey no matter when

I believe you are totally off with those people in Prague. Why should they want to see those best players who didnīt show anything in the Olympics and tied Latvia in the pre-quarterfinal game and then almost all declined to come to what to those fans is the 2nd hockey highlight in an Olympic year (No. 1 in the non-Olympics year) and most probably the fans would have to give out unreasonably big money to see those games ? Many of the Czech fans actually currently call them "primadony"- divas right now. Check out the thread with Jágrīs quotes on here to see some of the Czech fans reactions on here.

Sure, nobody in the Czech Republic cares about hockey anymore.


The Czech fans would currently much rather see their WHC gold winning crew around Jágr play. Because those guys actually got a heart
that beats for their country.

jakzed has already pointed out that the WHC gold means more than the World Cup to him. IMO the general public in CZE doesnīt know that much anything about the World Cup of Hockey, but everyone there knows that they won the WHC.

Yes, and you have heard from many others who feel that the winning World Championships is nice, but not worth closing the country for. They would rather win something involving the best players.

Cheering on this Czech team to win the tournament, I would give anything to see the faces of the Czech players who declined because they were "tired" when the team was getting the gold medals or celebrating in the locker room. No Czech player would rather sit at home on the coach than have a gold medal from the WHC around their necks. They just thought they wouldnīt get any, so tehy decided not to come.
I would hope that the Czech players would be happy for their fellow hockey players. Why would they be embarrassed?

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06-02-2010, 02:51 AM
  #52
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Just so Canadians realize the meaning of the world cup to Europeans, prior to the Torino 2006, majority of Finnish fans and hockey media valued the bronze from Nagano more than the second place finish from the 04 world cup. Comments ranged from "players jumping on the ice straight from the golf course", "not fully fit", "exhibiton tournament". Some even valued the WHC gold from 1995 more.

Just because it's best-on-best on paper doesn't mean it's the best quality hockey. Olympics and even the 08 Worlds provided better quality and more entertaining hockey than the last world cup.

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06-02-2010, 06:01 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
I would hope that the Czech players would be happy for their fellow hockey players. Why would they be embarrassed?
The only thing not making sense here is comparing the World Cup of Hockey and the Football Euopean Championship.

Canadians claim that the IHWC is not relevant because the best players are not available, however this is not true as the majority of the top players is no longer in the play-offs and therefore are available, but just declined to come. This is the last time Iīll repeat this.

The only reason why theyīd sell out that tournament in Prague is beacsue Czechs love hockey. But unlike you they donīt give a damn about your best on best, they can sell it out (and have sold it out) even when their all Euro team plays Slovak league 3rd liners. National team ia national team to them.

And currently 99,99999% of them would pay more to see their IHWC winning team than their so called best players team. If those tickets for the World Cup of Hockey were too expensive , they might have trouble seeling it out.

Anyway, quite obviously you have no idea what winning the IHWC means to the Czechs (and Slovaks for that matter). No itīs not just nice, itīs a big thing to win the IHWC for them. Itīs nice to Canadians to win, to us itīs a national wide event that is also celebrated nationalwide. You could count the Czechs whoīd rather win the World Cup of Hockey than the IHWC on the fingers of one hand. Doesnīt mean they woulnīt enjoy the World Cup hockey, but it is of minor importance to them compared to the IHWC. What they want is their players to stop declining playing at the IHWC.

Watch some of these videos to understand what winning the IHWC means to us:

The square in Prague during the 3rd period of the CZE-Russia game


People celebrate everywhere, buses included:


Celebrating on Prague s main square:


Celebrating in the streets:


Celebrations in Brno


Subway:


Arrival of the Czech players home live on Czech TV




Except for the Nagano Olympics, the IHWCīs in the late 90īs/early 2000īs and some of the Football Euros probably the only time you could see that square so full was the Velvet revolution of 89ī. And no place in the Czech republic looked any different than this a week and soemthing ago.


Last edited by slovakiasnextone: 06-02-2010 at 12:09 PM.
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Old
06-02-2010, 11:45 AM
  #54
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I wish I was there for those celebrations, man that almost brought a tear to my eye.

I did state why I value the World Championships over the World Cup and a lot has to do with the legitimacy of the tournament itself.

I think there are implications for the Czech hockey program and our distinctive style as opposed to what younger players learn here in North America.

Did anyone notice that Jagr didn't take the medal from Valcalv Klaus (Czech President) and Klaus shrugs his shoulders...I wonder if there are differences there.

Oh well...

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06-02-2010, 12:09 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakzed View Post
I wish I was there for those celebrations, man that almost brought a tear to my eye.

I did state why I value the World Championships over the World Cup and a lot has to do with the legitimacy of the tournament itself.

I think there are implications for the Czech hockey program and our distinctive style as opposed to what younger players learn here in North America.

Did anyone notice that Jagr didn't take the medal from Valcalv Klaus (Czech President) and Klaus shrugs his shoulders...I wonder if there are differences there.

Oh well...
I wish I was there and Iīm not even Czech.

Since you live in North America, Iīd say that your view is a bit different from the Czechs living in CZE. They just think that the facts that someone decides not to show up at the tournament or isnīt there because of a play-off in what to them is a pretty far away world donīt take credibility away from the tournament. Why should they bother about the fact that 20-30+ something players not only from their own team, but also from their opponents team declined to come to the tournament? If those players arenīt there they just arenīt there, for the most part they decided not to be there themselves. Itīs the players who are there that matter. And they are the World Champions.

(Btw, as for Jágr- well, I donīt know whether he would be really thinking about something like this after winning the IHWC gold, but some time ago Klaus had a fall out with the ODS party and stopped being itīs honorary chairman. Jágr on the other hand has openly supported ODS in last weekīs elections. Or maybe he just doesnīt like Klaus and his opinions, this from my POV seems to be nothing uncommon among Czechs, itīs not like the president in CZE is actually elected by the people after all.)

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06-02-2010, 07:26 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
The only thing not making sense here is comparing the World Cup of Hockey and the Football Euopean Championship.

Here we go again


Canadians claim that the IHWC is not relevant because the best players are not available, however this is not true as the majority of the top players is no longer in the play-offs and therefore are available, but just declined to come. This is the last time Iīll repeat this.

And this is the last time I'll repeat that no matter what you think, the best players do NOT play in the World Championships, you even say so above.


The only reason why theyīd sell out that tournament in Prague is beacsue Czechs love hockey. But unlike you they donīt give a damn about your best on best, they can sell it out (and have sold it out) even when their all Euro team plays Slovak league 3rd liners. National team ia national team to them.

The only reason it would sell out is because the Czechs love hockey, well,....obviously.

And currently 99,99999% of them would pay more to see their IHWC winning team than their so called best players team. If those tickets for the World Cup of Hockey were too expensive , they might have trouble seeling it out.

and 99.99% of North Americans would rather a best on best.


Anyway, quite obviously you have no idea what winning the IHWC means to the Czechs (and Slovaks for that matter). No itīs not just nice, itīs a big thing to win the IHWC for them. Itīs nice to Canadians to win, to us itīs a national wide event that is also celebrated nationalwide. You could count the Czechs whoīd rather win the World Cup of Hockey than the IHWC on the fingers of one hand. Doesnīt mean they woulnīt enjoy the World Cup hockey, but it is of minor importance to them compared to the IHWC. What they want is their players to stop declining playing at the IHWC.
I know that many Europeans have a special love for the world Championships, but you are right, I have no idea why so much. Anyway, this is a World Cup thread, not a World Championship thread.

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06-03-2010, 04:07 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
I wish I was there and Iīm not even Czech.

Since you live in North America, Iīd say that your view is a bit different from the Czechs living in CZE. They just think that the facts that someone decides not to show up at the tournament or isnīt there because of a play-off in what to them is a pretty far away world donīt take credibility away from the tournament. Why should they bother about the fact that 20-30+ something players not only from their own team, but also from their opponents team declined to come to the tournament? If those players arenīt there they just arenīt there, for the most part they decided not to be there themselves. Itīs the players who are there that matter. And they are the World Champions.

(Btw, as for Jágr- well, I donīt know whether he would be really thinking about something like this after winning the IHWC gold, but some time ago Klaus had a fall out with the ODS party and stopped being itīs honorary chairman. Jágr on the other hand has openly supported ODS in last weekīs elections. Or maybe he just doesnīt like Klaus and his opinions, this from my POV seems to be nothing uncommon among Czechs, itīs not like the president in CZE is actually elected by the people after all.)
Ahoj,

No I meant something different. I meant that our hockey programs would be better and the quality of our teams may be better if more junior players stayed at home rather than come to North America. It's better for them adapting to the North American style, but it erodes our own unique style and our international play often suffers due to it. I'm starting to think this way anyhow.

Klaus is actually extremely popular in Czechland. I wonder who he supports now since the falling out with ODS because TOP09's leader and him have had differences too. In either case he would rather have them in power, as they will be now, rather than the socialists.

What part of Slovakia are you from? I have distant family in Trencin and friends from Bratislava.

Nazdar!

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Old
06-05-2010, 09:03 PM
  #58
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somebody had mentioned that countries would be stripped of the tournament if the nhl passes this

well thats not the case, its merely a suggestion for the players who plan to attend or not attend

they are just suggesting keeping their world cup cycle and going to the sochi olympics which is also promising but keeping the players from too many tournaments in one year

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06-06-2010, 03:33 PM
  #59
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God have some of you Slovaks destroyed this thread....

Quit talking about soccer as noone gives a **** about that sport over here.....

This thread is about the World Cup of Hockey, not the World Championships. It has already been made obvious that most North Americans and its players dont give a rats ass about that tournament. I am one of the few that does care about it, and wishes for the best out of the US each and every time.

BUT...

It is not a best on best format, and is noway on Earth even remotely close to the "quality" of hockey that the World Cup offers. Whether there are players that miss the World Cup due to contract holdouts or injuries, it still has about 90% of the worlds best players playing in it every time it is held.

I am absolutely excited for the World Cup, as I just have such fond memories of the 96 Cup. The 04 Cup as a whole was a major let down and I think there are some factors involved with that.

In 04' it was still a horrible brand of hockey to watch. Low goal scoring, clutching and grabbing going on, the way the game was played then and now is night and day. You also had an older workforce back then, look at some of the 2010 Olympic rosters and you can see youth is king. IMO, the 2012 tourney will be so much better then what the 04 ever was. There is so much new blood in the game for all countries, that the level of talent hasn't been this good in a long time. Throw into the fact that the game has opened up, and you will see some amazing hockey.

I love the idea of it being right around training camp, as most of the athletes will indeed be in shape and under contract. This would be a great way for all the players involved to get tuned up for the season.

I really cant wait for this tournament and I hope the finals is a best of three series and not a one game and done final.

This is the hockey board, take the soccer crap somewhere else and get back on topic....

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06-06-2010, 10:10 PM
  #60
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There is so much new blood in the game for all countries, that the level of talent hasn't been this good in a long time. Throw into the fact that the game has opened up, and you will see some amazing hockey.
You are right, the amount of roster turnover could be very noticeable in 2012 and in 2014. So many good young talented players ready to represent on the elite international level. I can't wait to see who will be playing and to see which of the younger crop of players will make their respective teams. I think the speed of the game is going to get faster. I am already thinking of what the rosters will look like.

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07-27-2010, 01:31 AM
  #61
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seriously. as long as there is no all-star game and the NHL is saying NHL players will be available for the Word Championship, as in not during the Stanley Cup playoffs, id be all for this plan. It's perfect, IIHF word championship stays as is for 3 years straight but always there will be an intense full NHL, KHL, everyone else tournament like the olympics... that would be much nicer to watch than current IIHF world championships. if only team canada was like Russia.

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07-27-2010, 12:01 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
I know that many Europeans have a special love for the world Championships, but you are right, I have no idea why so much. Anyway, this is a World Cup thread, not a World Championship thread.
It's simple. Becuase it's part of you hockey history since 1920. I think it's save to say the World Champion title has the same value for Europeans (Czechs for sure) as SC Champion for North Americans.

Speaking about about World Cup. I agree with POV that it's just exhibition tournament.

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07-27-2010, 04:40 PM
  #63
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Hey Czech guys, what are you doing ? You can't understand what the World Cup is. I mean, it's only for North Americans.

Anyway, I don't know how you could hold a tournament with European teams in September. Except NHLers, all players are already playing in their championships.

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07-27-2010, 06:03 PM
  #64
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Canadians are never going to care about a tournament in which Chris Mason is our starting goaltender.

Which is why the World Cup is a better tournament. Best on best trumps whomever is available to play who doesn't have plans for the spring.

Why we need to pretend the World Championships is a superior tournament because it's been around longer I will never understand. You can't live off your history forever, at some time the product on the ice needs to justify the hype.

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07-27-2010, 06:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
It's simple. Becuase it's part of you hockey history since 1920. I think it's save to say the World Champion title has the same value for Europeans (Czechs for sure) as SC Champion for North Americans.

Speaking about about World Cup. I agree with POV that it's just exhibition tournament.
I guess it doesn't have the same appeal to me. Canada was forbidden from sending it's best players by the IIHF for many years. It is too bad many European hockey players don't feel the same way as their fans do.

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07-28-2010, 12:49 AM
  #66
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Canadians are never going to care about a tournament in which Chris Mason is our starting goaltender.

Which is why the World Cup is a better tournament. Best on best trumps whomever is available to play who doesn't have plans for the spring.

Why we need to pretend the World Championships is a superior tournament because it's been around longer I will never understand. You can't live off your history forever, at some time the product on the ice needs to justify the hype.
First of all you need to learn to respect different opinion. I realized some Canadians really have hard time to do that. Wurld Cup is interestiong and is ok. But that's all. I can say I'm ok with that WHC isn't best on best tournament. We have Olympics, so why another same thing every year? This is more interesting for me. Everybody makes the team and then compete - you can't say according to paper what will happen. And it's not our or IIHF's fault you sent Mason as starter there... I saw Malkin and Gonchar on the ice, why not Fleury for example? Blame your players, not the tournament.

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07-28-2010, 01:13 AM
  #67
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First of all you need to learn to respect different opinion. I realized some Canadians really have hard time to do that. Wurld Cup is interestiong and is ok. But that's all. I can say I'm ok with that WHC isn't best on best tournament. We have Olympics, so why another same thing every year? This is more interesting for me. Everybody makes the team and then compete - you can't say according to paper what will happen. And it's not our or IIHF's fault you sent Mason as starter there... I saw Malkin and Gonchar on the ice, why not Fleury for example? Blame your players, not the tournament.
Pretty sure the IIHF already tried that, and I don't think it engendered much goodwill towards them from the players.

From the IIHF"s perspective if the best players don't think it's worth their time to play in your tournament that probably means it's not as prestigious as you think it is in your mind. And you might want to make amends to fix that situation, be it calendar scheduling or year to year.

All I said was that the World Cup is superior because it's a best on best and you countered with "Wurld Cup is interestiong and is ok. But that's all."

More then respecting your opinion I'd say I agree with you on that front.


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07-28-2010, 01:22 AM
  #68
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wasnt it your superstar *****ing about no-one showing up?

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07-28-2010, 01:35 AM
  #69
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Pretty sure the IIHF already tried that, and I don't think it engendered much goodwill towards them from the players.

From the IIHF"s perspective if the best players don't think it's worth their time to play in your tournament that probably means it's not as prestigious as you think it is in your mind. And you might want to make amends to fix that situation, be it calendar scheduling or year to year.

All I said was that the World Cup is superior because it's a best on best and you countered with "Wurld Cup is interestiong and is ok. But that's all."

More then respecting your opinion I'd say I agree with you on that front.
This is maybe true speaking about your and american players. Speaking about our players, I don't know about anybody, who didn't come because he doesn't think it's worth his time. There were many various reasons for that, but not this one. I saw above that slovakiasnextone already posted few reasons, why it's not so easy to change calendar or year to year of WHC. Personally, I have no problem with WHC as it is now. Who cares, comes. Who doesn't care, stays at home. It's democracy.

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08-01-2010, 01:07 PM
  #70
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Problem with NHL's strategy/ies is that they don't even pretend to care about hockey as a global sport, let alone anything over the pond. As long as everything is best for their own interest and they make money they couldn't care less. Give NHL(Bettman) more power and hockey is destined to never grow. Basically a WCH in Europe isn't good enough because the players with NHL contracts may suffer injuries and are tired, and they get nothing for "lending" their players. Meanwhile hosting your own tournament and in another way extending the season is fine because it's in their interest and they make money. Quel surprise.

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08-01-2010, 03:08 PM
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Problem with NHL's strategy/ies is that they don't even pretend to care about hockey as a global sport, let alone anything over the pond. As long as everything is best for their own interest and they make money they couldn't care less. Give NHL(Bettman) more power and hockey is destined to never grow. Basically a WCH in Europe isn't good enough because the players with NHL contracts may suffer injuries and are tired, and they get nothing for "lending" their players. Meanwhile hosting your own tournament and in another way extending the season is fine because it's in their interest and they make money. Quel surprise.
.....not to mention the NHL's questionable practices in regards to transfer deals/agreements.
The NHL has taken so much from European hockey over the years, yet done a very minimal job of reimbursing.

Ironically, this short sighted practice will only hurt the NHL in the long-run as talent pools dry up (see Czech Republic) and entities form in response to what they perceive as NHL ransacking (see KHL).

Simply put, you can't cut down a forest and put forth a minimal effort in replanting what you take.

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08-01-2010, 06:26 PM
  #72
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There will be less players skipping the World Cup then the World Championships. That's for darn sure.
probably yes but having missed many keyplayers you just cant call this tourney as a best against best!

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08-02-2010, 12:30 PM
  #73
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probably yes but having missed many keyplayers you just cant call this tourney as a best against best!
The only international competition that can make that claim is the Olympics. It's certainly possible to move the World Championships back to a May or June start date, but then European-based players are at a disadvantage because their season ends in March or April, whereas the NHL players are still in game shape. You could move it to July to make it a best-on-best competition where everyone is somewhat out of shape, but I'm not sure how well that would work out: that's the height of football season in Scandinavia and Russia. If you want best-on-best every year, though, that's probably the easiest way to do it.

I wholeheartedly approve of the idea of a rotating competition system, so that there is one international competition every year.

2011 - World Championship (SVK)
2012 - World Cup
2013 - World Championship (SWE & FIN)
2014 - Sochi Games
2015 - World Championship (BLR)
2016 - World Cup
2017 - World Championships (CZE)
2018 - Olypmics
2019 - World Championships (SWE & FIN)
2020 - World Cup
2021 - World Championship
2022 - Olympics
2023 - World Championship
2024 - World Cup
etc.

So every currently determined Worlds host still gets to host the event, and the NHL gets what it wants (a consistently competed for World Cup). To me, this is the best compromise in terms of league desires and quality of hockey. Having the World Championships every year while having a World Cup and/or Olympics before or after it undermines the legitimacy of the Worlds, especially in Olympic years, when players on the Olympic teams typically decline to participate in the Worlds.

As for the World Cup itself, I'd like to see a four-group, twelve-team competition, where the top six teams automatically qualify, and the other six spots have to be competed for by the next, say, eighteen teams in the IIHF rankings. The qualification process can be a lead-in for the World Championships the year before the tournament if the competition is moved into the summer, allowing interest to build and helping players for representative nations get themselves back on form.

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08-02-2010, 02:41 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
The only international competition that can make that claim is the Olympics. It's certainly possible to move the World Championships back to a May or June start date, but then European-based players are at a disadvantage because their season ends in March or April, whereas the NHL players are still in game shape. You could move it to July to make it a best-on-best competition where everyone is somewhat out of shape, but I'm not sure how well that would work out: that's the height of football season in Scandinavia and Russia. If you want best-on-best every year, though, that's probably the easiest way to do it.

I wholeheartedly approve of the idea of a rotating competition system, so that there is one international competition every year.

2011 - World Championship (SVK)
2012 - World Cup
2013 - World Championship (SWE & FIN)
2014 - Sochi Games
2015 - World Championship (BLR)
2016 - World Cup
2017 - World Championships (CZE)
2018 - Olypmics
2019 - World Championships (SWE & FIN)
2020 - World Cup
2021 - World Championship
2022 - Olympics
2023 - World Championship
2024 - World Cup
etc.

So every currently determined Worlds host still gets to host the event, and the NHL gets what it wants (a consistently competed for World Cup). To me, this is the best compromise in terms of league desires and quality of hockey. Having the World Championships every year while having a World Cup and/or Olympics before or after it undermines the legitimacy of the Worlds, especially in Olympic years, when players on the Olympic teams typically decline to participate in the Worlds.

As for the World Cup itself, I'd like to see a four-group, twelve-team competition, where the top six teams automatically qualify, and the other six spots have to be competed for by the next, say, eighteen teams in the IIHF rankings. The qualification process can be a lead-in for the World Championships the year before the tournament if the competition is moved into the summer, allowing interest to build and helping players for representative nations get themselves back on form.
I would agree with that if NHL changes it's schedule to let all players play at WC. Otherwise there would be no sense in that - WC still wouldn't be best on best and the only thing it would cause is less international hockey for not North American fans, who care about that. And North Americans still wouldn't care about that tournament.

But I'm still no big fan of that. I think current face of affairs is ok. Why is WC at olympic year bad? Olympics are very short tournament and I think having another tournament with different players to watch is ok. I'm fan of hockey, why should I want to see less of that?

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08-02-2010, 03:32 PM
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Maverick41
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While I was reading this thread I got a really stupid idea for the World Cup.
As I understand it, the following countries would be most likely to participate:
Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden, Czech Republic, Finland and Slovakia.

I think there should be one more team in the tournament and I was wondering which team that could be (Switzerland, Belarus, Germany, Norway, Denmark, etc.). Since it will be difficult to bring many players, who play in Europe over for this tournament, it should be a country that has many players playing in North America. But even then the drop off might be rather big compared to the, so called, big 7. So now for my stupid idea: Would it be feasible that they could put together a mixed team with NHLers from those countries? I think a team with the likes of Streit, Ehrhoff, Kopitar, Regin, etc. would be interesting to watch.

Just a thought, though.

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