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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup 2012

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Old
08-02-2010, 03:45 PM
  #76
afrobomber11
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how does the iihf get a comprimise in this

i like the idea im not knocking that, just i dont see how the iihf wins or even ties this one, they get cut back by 2 tournys in a 4 year cycle, and they arent especially in charge during the olympics and have no say over the world cup

another point i have, is that during the world cup year you dont get to see anyone except the big 7+1

so that makes a nation that is progressing halt their program for that year?

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08-02-2010, 04:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by afrobomber11 View Post
how does the iihf get a comprimise in this

i like the idea im not knocking that, just i dont see how the iihf wins or even ties this one, they get cut back by 2 tournys in a 4 year cycle, and they arent especially in charge during the olympics and have no say over the world cup

another point i have, is that during the world cup year you dont get to see anyone except the big 7+1

so that makes a nation that is progressing halt their program for that year?
What other major professional sport has an annual world championship?

National teams will progress and decline irrespective of them playing in an annual "World Championship".

In 2010 this tournament is a relic in the modern sports landscape and a definite outlier relative to it's peers. Sooner or later it's frequency will be curbed, and maybe as soon as this summer if the hubris telegraphed by some parties going into this summit is to be believed.

With the changes to the game post lockout, coupled with the wealth of young talent in the game today 2012 should be a fine tournament.


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08-02-2010, 06:35 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Maverick41 View Post
While I was reading this thread I got a really stupid idea for the World Cup.
As I understand it, the following countries would be most likely to participate:
Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden, Czech Republic, Finland and Slovakia.

I think there should be one more team in the tournament and I was wondering which team that could be (Switzerland, Belarus, Germany, Norway, Denmark, etc.). Since it will be difficult to bring many players, who play in Europe over for this tournament, it should be a country that has many players playing in North America. But even then the drop off might be rather big compared to the, so called, big 7. So now for my stupid idea: Would it be feasible that they could put together a mixed team with NHLers from those countries? I think a team with the likes of Streit, Ehrhoff, Kopitar, Regin, etc. would be interesting to watch.

Just a thought, though.
Many countries in the "big 7" have had world cup rosters including players not in the NHL. IMO, either go with 12 teams (2 divisions of 6) or in the case of 8 teams whoever is ranked 1-8 at the time.

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08-03-2010, 08:15 AM
  #79
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In my opinion World Cup is quite worthless exhibition tournament. It's interesting to watch the best players in national teams, I admit, but the value of the tournament is near zero. It's also still very unknown in Europe. Finland is a hockey country but in 2004 almost nobody talked about World Cup. Finland made it to the final but still the tournament didn't get nearly as much news coverage than yearly WHC tournament. As many have said, it's just a north American invitational tournament with "best" players not in proper shape.

Personally I wouldn't mind if NHL players didn't participate olympics and there wasn't any World Cup either. There is no such as best-of-the-best-tournament. Some players are always injured or can't participate for other reasons and there are never absolutely best teams. General managers choose the players to the team and that's it. The idea is that national teams compete against each other, not players. 99% of the ice hockey spectators can't even notice a difference in gameplay if the olympic rosters are replaced with some B/C-rosters.

If Canadiens, for example, don't give a ***t about World Championships because the best players aren't there, does a Maple Leafs fan go to watch a match against Senators even though top players were injured? Do you really watch only the best-of-the-best games? I guess that no. At least I don't go to see games just to see some particular players playing. I go to see ice hockey played between teams. In many European countries (Finland, Czech rep, Sweden, Slovakia, Russia) people want to see their national team playing in World Championships and individual players aren't that important.

Anyway, it's quite funny how some olympic tournament is so highly regarded. Players get together a couple days before the tournament, play three preliminary round games and then single game elimination rounds begin. It's more of lottery than trying to find out which team is best especially because the tournament is just every four years. World Cup tournament is even more funny, because it's arranged "sometimes" by one league organization. What's the point having all the best players along if the tournament itself is a meaningless lottery thing of four to seven games per team?

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08-03-2010, 08:44 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by roto View Post
In my opinion World Cup is quite worthless exhibition tournament. It's interesting to watch the best players in national teams, I admit, but the value of the tournament is near zero. It's also still very unknown in Europe. Finland is a hockey country but in 2004 almost nobody talked about World Cup. Finland made it to the final but still the tournament didn't get nearly as much news coverage than yearly WHC tournament. As many have said, it's just a north American invitational tournament with "best" players not in proper shape.

Personally I wouldn't mind if NHL players didn't participate olympics and there wasn't any World Cup either. There is no such as best-of-the-best-tournament. Some players are always injured or can't participate for other reasons and there are never absolutely best teams. General managers choose the players to the team and that's it. The idea is that national teams compete against each other, not players. 99% of the ice hockey spectators can't even notice a difference in gameplay if the olympic rosters are replaced with some B/C-rosters.

If Canadiens, for example, don't give a ***t about World Championships because the best players aren't there, does a Maple Leafs fan go to watch a match against Senators even though top players were injured? Do you really watch only the best-of-the-best games? I guess that no. At least I don't go to see games just to see some particular players playing. I go to see ice hockey played between teams. In many European countries (Finland, Czech rep, Sweden, Slovakia, Russia) people want to see their national team playing in World Championships and individual players aren't that important.

Anyway, it's quite funny how some olympic tournament is so highly regarded. Players get together a couple days before the tournament, play three preliminary round games and then single game elimination rounds begin. It's more of lottery than trying to find out which team is best especially because the tournament is just every four years. World Cup tournament is even more funny, because it's arranged "sometimes" by one league organization. What's the point having all the best players along if the tournament itself is a meaningless lottery thing of four to seven games per team?
Good post. I completely agree with you.

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08-03-2010, 02:31 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by roto View Post
In my opinion World Cup is quite worthless exhibition tournament. It's interesting to watch the best players in national teams, I admit, but the value of the tournament is near zero. It's also still very unknown in Europe. Finland is a hockey country but in 2004 almost nobody talked about World Cup. Finland made it to the final but still the tournament didn't get nearly as much news coverage than yearly WHC tournament. As many have said, it's just a north American invitational tournament with "best" players not in proper shape.

Personally I wouldn't mind if NHL players didn't participate olympics and there wasn't any World Cup either. There is no such as best-of-the-best-tournament. Some players are always injured or can't participate for other reasons and there are never absolutely best teams. General managers choose the players to the team and that's it. The idea is that national teams compete against each other, not players. 99% of the ice hockey spectators can't even notice a difference in gameplay if the olympic rosters are replaced with some B/C-rosters.

If Canadiens, for example, don't give a ***t about World Championships because the best players aren't there, does a Maple Leafs fan go to watch a match against Senators even though top players were injured? Do you really watch only the best-of-the-best games? I guess that no. At least I don't go to see games just to see some particular players playing. I go to see ice hockey played between teams. In many European countries (Finland, Czech rep, Sweden, Slovakia, Russia) people want to see their national team playing in World Championships and individual players aren't that important.

Anyway, it's quite funny how some olympic tournament is so highly regarded. Players get together a couple days before the tournament, play three preliminary round games and then single game elimination rounds begin. It's more of lottery than trying to find out which team is best especially because the tournament is just every four years. World Cup tournament is even more funny, because it's arranged "sometimes" by one league organization. What's the point having all the best players along if the tournament itself is a meaningless lottery thing of four to seven games per team?
Best players + nationalism will always trump second and third best players + nationalism.

Irrespective of people in Finland paying no mind to the World Cup the fact is the best Finnish players care, and more of them cared to show up for that tournament then the World Championships this year.

The World Championships is becoming more and more irrelevant among the best players year by year. What does that say about it's legitimacy?


Last edited by Wham City: 08-03-2010 at 02:43 PM.
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08-03-2010, 02:52 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Best players + nationalism will always trump second and third best players + nationalism.

Irrespective of people in Finland paying no mind to the World Cup the fact is the best Finnish players care, and more of them cared to show up for that tournament then the World Championships this year.

The World Championships is becoming more and more irrelevant among the best players year by year. What does that say about it's legitimacy?
I think it says more about stupidity of the players. But still I don't think it is true, can you prove that? Btw. lol, if World Championship isn't legit in your opinion, why you even talk about that? Nobody's forcing you to care about that tournament. Why is WC bothering you so much?

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08-03-2010, 03:58 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I think it says more about stupidity of the players. But still I don't think it is true, can you prove that? Btw. lol, if World Championship isn't legit in your opinion, why you even talk about that? Nobody's forcing you to care about that tournament. Why is WC bothering you so much?
I'm not the one who feels the need hijack every World Cup thread with discussion about the World Championships.

The fact is in 2010 8 players played in both the World Championships and Olympics among the rosters of Finland, Sweden, USA and Canada.

In 2006 that number was twice as high at 16. I think that speaks pretty clearly to the fact that the tournament's worth among the best players is in decline.

We get it you don't care about best on best. Some people do and that's why the World Cup exists, and why people are excited about it.


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08-03-2010, 04:16 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I'm not the one who feels the need hijack every World Cup thread with discussion about the World Championships.

We get it you don't care about best on best. Some people do and that's why the World Cup exists, and why people are excited about it.
So you get it wrong. I care about it, but I feel no need to destroy system of World Championships because of that. I think all this discussion started with:

2011 World Championships
2012 World Cup
2013 World Championships
2014 Olympics
2015 World Championships
2016 World Cup

which is complete nonsense. That's why WC is discussed here.

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08-03-2010, 05:36 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post

The fact is in 2010 8 players played in both the World Championships and Olympics among the rosters of Finland, Sweden, USA and Canada.

In 2006 that number was twice as high at 16. I think that speaks pretty clearly to the fact that the tournament's worth among the best players is in decline.

We get it you don't care about best on best. Some people do and that's why the World Cup exists, and why people are excited about it.
As usual you Canadians still think that anyone outside of Canada actually cares about the World Cup...

Besides, you can't make a direct claim that interest is declining on the Worlds amongst the player without seeing past the numbers, ie. looking at each player's individual situation. That kind of game (using stats to suit your purpose) is more suited for the right wing nut jobs at the Political Discussion board, not the hockey sections.

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08-03-2010, 06:01 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
As usual you Canadians still think that anyone outside of Canada actually cares about the World Cup...

Besides, you can't make a direct claim that interest is declining on the Worlds amongst the player without seeing past the numbers, ie. looking at each player's individual situation. That kind of game (using stats to suit your purpose) is more suited for the right wing nut jobs at the Political Discussion board, not the hockey sections.
I never said that, I just said the best players in the world care more about it then the World Championships which is why they actually show up to play in it.

Eurovision is a popular contest but it hardly follows that these are the best musicians in their respective countries.

I feel similarly about the World Championships.


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08-03-2010, 06:20 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I never said that, I just said the best players in the world care more about it then the World Championships which is why they actually show up to play in it.
I doubt it's an issue of players not caring as much as it is timing. The World Cup is played at a more convenient time (it certainly serves to help players get ready for the season).

Unlike the Olympics (prestige #1), there's nothing about the World Cup that's innately more prestigious than the World Championships. It's a matter of timing.

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08-03-2010, 06:23 PM
  #88
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I doubt it's an issue of players not caring as much as it is timing. The World Cup is played at a more convenient time (it certainly serves to help players get ready for the season).

Unlike the Olympics (prestige #1), there's nothing about the World Cup that's innately more prestigious than the World Championships. It's a matter of timing.
I'd argue the level of competition makes it more prestigious.

I mean imagine where for from next year until 2020 only 20 of the best 128 players showed up for the Australian Open annually.

And instead an upstart major was created, let's call it the Brazilian Open where 110/128 of the world's top players showed up annually.

In 2020 what would be the more prestigious major to win?


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08-03-2010, 08:20 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I'd argue the level of competition makes it more prestigious.

I mean imagine where for from next year until 2020 only 20 of the best 128 players showed up for the Australian Open annually.

And instead an upstart major was created, let's call it the Brazilian Open where 110/128 of the world's top players showed up annually.

In 2020 what would be the more prestigious major to win?
emotion>logic with many of our European friends. Every sport on earth prides itself on best on best formats. Olympics, world cups, majors, grand slams, etc,.. It is the fact that the best players WANT to play in these tournaments.

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08-04-2010, 01:16 AM
  #90
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emotion>logic with many of our European friends. Every sport on earth prides itself on best on best formats. Olympics, world cups, majors, grand slams, etc,.. It is the fact that the best players WANT to play in these tournaments.
There is some truth to that.
The grand slams in tennis are an interesting comparison though, because I doubt it would be anywhere near a best on best format, if it weren't for the substantial amount of prize money the players could win there. Of course if the best players would not participate they couldn't generate the money they need to get them to play. If you just look at the prestige of the 4 big tournaments I am fairly certain, the only one of them that could attract top players even with less money, at least for a while, would be Wimbledon.

Back to hockey: I don't mind the World Cup, if it is played every 2,3 or 4 years in addition to the regular IIHF tournaments. I might even want to watch it, but it wouldn't work, because there will not be any coverage of that event in Germany, since we won't be in the tournament. And even if Germany would be allowed to play, there would still be no TV coverage because hockey in general and the World Cup in particular are not big enough here. And also the World Cup is not big enough for me to watch it through a stream on my computer in the middle of the night. I would do that for the Olympics, the occasional NHL-Game and if the WHC would be played in North America.

Still, I understand and respect the appeal the World Cup has to people in North America in particular. Of course you want to see your best players suit up for your country, and when you are among the elite teams, you'd rather watch them play teams of similar quality than teams they beat 98 out of 100 times. But while I understand this, I just can't find myself agreeing with it, because I am from one of those countries that are usually beaten easily by the hockey powers like Canada. So, as long as noone tries to take away my WHC I'll be happy.

And one more thing:
If the World Cup will be played on a regular basis, please keep the results of that tournament out of those ridiculous discussions about the IIHF-ranking.

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08-04-2010, 01:31 AM
  #91
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I would like you, Nakawick and Krazy_Eyez, to tell me just one thing - why is it so big problem in you eyes to have 2 tournaments every second year? Something like:

WCh, WC
WCh
WCh, OG
WCh

... Olympics are number 1 tournament for everybody, that's clear. Problem with World Cup imo is that players aren't in a good shape. But let it be. I don't mind if it is played, I would watch it, why not? But I really don't understand, why World Cups and Olympics, which are short best on best tournaments, couldn't live together with World Championship which is completely different tournament - longer and it's about players from Europe and those not playing NHL playoffs. What's the problem?

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08-04-2010, 04:52 AM
  #92
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There is some truth to that.
The grand slams in tennis are an interesting comparison though, because I doubt it would be anywhere near a best on best format, if it weren't for the substantial amount of prize money the players could win there. Of course if the best players would not participate they couldn't generate the money they need to get them to play. If you just look at the prestige of the 4 big tournaments I am fairly certain, the only one of them that could attract top players even with less money, at least for a while, would be Wimbledon.

Back to hockey: I don't mind the World Cup, if it is played every 2,3 or 4 years in addition to the regular IIHF tournaments. I might even want to watch it, but it wouldn't work, because there will not be any coverage of that event in Germany, since we won't be in the tournament. And even if Germany would be allowed to play, there would still be no TV coverage because hockey in general and the World Cup in particular are not big enough here. And also the World Cup is not big enough for me to watch it through a stream on my computer in the middle of the night. I would do that for the Olympics, the occasional NHL-Game and if the WHC would be played in North America.

Still, I understand and respect the appeal the World Cup has to people in North America in particular. Of course you want to see your best players suit up for your country, and when you are among the elite teams, you'd rather watch them play teams of similar quality than teams they beat 98 out of 100 times. But while I understand this, I just can't find myself agreeing with it, because I am from one of those countries that are usually beaten easily by the hockey powers like Canada. So, as long as noone tries to take away my WHC I'll be happy.

And one more thing:
If the World Cup will be played on a regular basis, please keep the results of that tournament out of those ridiculous discussions about the IIHF-ranking.
You guys were in the last two World Cups, games were played in Garmisch in 96 and Cologne in 04. You've only won game of 6 so that probably has a lot to do with why it hasn't got much coverage.

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08-04-2010, 05:06 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I would like you, Nakawick and Krazy_Eyez, to tell me just one thing - why is it so big problem in you eyes to have 2 tournaments every second year? Something like:

WCh, WC
WCh
WCh, OG
WCh

... Olympics are number 1 tournament for everybody, that's clear. Problem with World Cup imo is that players aren't in a good shape. But let it be. I don't mind if it is played, I would watch it, why not? But I really don't understand, why World Cups and Olympics, which are short best on best tournaments, couldn't live together with World Championship which is completely different tournament - longer and it's about players from Europe and those not playing NHL playoffs. What's the problem?
Having 95% of the best players playing a month into the season imo is better then having 15% of the best players playing at the end of the season.

The problem with the World Championship becomes self-evident here, it's less about the best players in the sport participating and more about "players from Europe and those not playing NHL playoffs". Shouldn't a World Championship be striving for the best international players and not the second and third best players that are available. There's a good reason FIFA doesn't hold the World Cup annually during the Champions and league playoffs.

I don't really care one way or the other what the IIHF does because the best players will be showing up for the World Cup regardless. But if the IIHF wants to attract more then 15% of the world's best players they'd be wise to make reforms to the tournaments schedule and frequency.

Is there another major professional sport who's international governing body has a World Championship that only attracts 15% of the world's best players?


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08-04-2010, 06:04 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
There's a good reason FIFA doesn't hold the World Cup annually during the Champions and league playoffs.

I don't really care one way or the other what the IIHF does because the best players will be showing up for the World Cup regardless. But if the IIHF wants to attract more then 15% of the world's best players they'd be wise to make reforms to the tournaments schedule and frequency.
That is one heck of a terrible comparison. Football can be played throughout the year in almost every place. The summer break would actually be a prime time to play, unlike in hockey, which, if you look at its roots, is purely a winter sport.

The FIFA doesn't hold any tournaments during the season, because they have enough time to put the tournament elsewhere. For your comparison to work, the NHL would need to finish its season much earlier, thus allowing the IIHF to hold the World Championships at a better time.

Apart from that, the FIFA is almost all-powerful when it comes to football. No league can say "screw you, we will continue playing and keep our players instead of letting them play in the World Cup".


It's rather funny how the same five people tend to completely ignore all the arguments about why the IIHF holds the WCH every year. They couldn't care less about whether you continue to cry about it not being a best-on-best tournament. They have to make money to support and grow hockey, and these yearly tournament are by far their biggest source of income. It is simply impossible to take out these tournaments without completely crippling the funding of hockey in all of the smaller hockey nations and even the medium ones.

Now, that may be a viable strategy if you want to make sure that no country can threaten your precious one anytime soon, but quite frankly, most people couldn't care less about that.

Apart from that, the World Championship is pretty much as old as the NHL. Some of you should stop acting like it came up a few years ago, with the IIHF daring to put it right where the NHL has held the playoffs for ages. While the WCH was played during the NHL-playoffs in the early going as well, those playoffs didn't go through May and June, they ended in March or early April. It's simply ridiculous to expext a tournament being shoved further and further back into summer, just because the NHL made its season longer and longer.

To go back to your comparison, you don't see the FIFA holding a five months long World Cup which forces the leagues to completely re-arrange their schedule. If it doesn't happen in football, why should it happen in hockey?

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08-04-2010, 06:30 AM
  #95
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That is one heck of a terrible comparison. Football can be played throughout the year in almost every place. The summer break would actually be a prime time to play, unlike in hockey, which, if you look at its roots, is purely a winter sport.

The FIFA doesn't hold any tournaments during the season, because they have enough time to put the tournament elsewhere. For your comparison to work, the NHL would need to finish its season much earlier, thus allowing the IIHF to hold the World Championships at a better time.

Apart from that, the FIFA is almost all-powerful when it comes to football. No league can say "screw you, we will continue playing and keep our players instead of letting them play in the World Cup".


It's rather funny how the same five people tend to completely ignore all the arguments about why the IIHF holds the WCH every year. They couldn't care less about whether you continue to cry about it not being a best-on-best tournament. They have to make money to support and grow hockey, and these yearly tournament are by far their biggest source of income. It is simply impossible to take out these tournaments without completely crippling the funding of hockey in all of the smaller hockey nations and even the medium ones.

Now, that may be a viable strategy if you want to make sure that no country can threaten your precious one anytime soon, but quite frankly, most people couldn't care less about that.

Apart from that, the World Championship is pretty much as old as the NHL. Some of you should stop acting like it came up a few years ago, with the IIHF daring to put it right where the NHL has held the playoffs for ages. While the WCH was played during the NHL-playoffs in the early going as well, those playoffs didn't go through May and June, they ended in March or early April. It's simply ridiculous to expext a tournament being shoved further and further back into summer, just because the NHL made its season longer and longer.

To go back to your comparison, you don't see the FIFA holding a five months long World Cup which forces the leagues to completely re-arrange their schedule. If it doesn't happen in football, why should it happen in hockey?
It may surprise you to know hockey is played indoors quite often and even when there is no snow on the ground outside!

The comparison is apt because FIFA understands in the modern professional sports landscape that players primary responsibility is to their club team. And asking them to play for their national team in an annual World Cup that overlapped with their season would be ridiculous. Even for a supposedly "all-powerful" organization like FIFA there are limits to what it can do, when Blatter proposed a three year World Cup cycle a decade or so ago it was quickly shot down.

The IIHF still hasn't realized this simple fact so that's why you get half-baked "editorials" from their PR department castigating the best players for not participating. Maybe instead of accusing players of insufficient nationalism why not make some reforms that make the tournament an attractive property to play in.

Has anyone seen the IIHF's financials? What makes you think this organization is different from any other corrupt sporting body.

The reality is there a huge asymmetry in power between the NHL and the IIHF. Appealing to 100 years of history is irrelevant when the best players have signed significant money contracts to play in the NHL. The IIHF is free to hold the World Championships at any time it wants it just shouldn't expect the best players to show up by fiat. When only 15% of the world's best players show up for your tournament I think that seriously calls into question your standing as a "World Championship".

What other world championship has a similarly paltry participation rate from it's top tier talent?


Last edited by Wham City: 08-04-2010 at 06:55 AM.
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08-04-2010, 07:57 AM
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The comparison is apt because FIFA understands in the modern professional sports landscape that players primary responsibility is to their club team. And asking them to play for their national team in an annual World Cup that overlapped with their season would be ridiculous.
You are wrong. In Sweden and Finland, for example, the football season starts in spring and ends in autumn. FIFA World Cup is held when FIFA wants and not when it suits everyone. If Sweden and Finland would participate in World Cup tournament, the respective national leagues would be stopped for longer time than a month. It wouldn't be nice for the clubs for economical reasons (of course) but also for climatical reasons. Football can't be played in Finland between November and March because it's just too cold (and there's usually snow, too), so it's quite difficult to strech a season already starting mid-April and ending in October. In my opinion even mid-April is too early. So, Finnish players playing in Finnish league should play for their national team in the middle of the season. They already play qualification matches in the middle of the season. Canadians may think it's ridiculous, but it's how flexibly things can work in some sport leagues other than NHL.

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Has anyone seen the IIHF's financials? What makes you think this organization is different from any other corrupt sporting body.

The reality is there a huge asymmetry in power between the NHL and the IIHF. Appealing to 100 years of history is irrelevant when the best players have signed significant money contracts to play in the NHL. The IIHF is free to hold the World Championships at any time it wants it just shouldn't expect the best players to show up by fiat. When only 15% of the world's best players show up for your tournament I think that seriously calls into question your standing as a "World Championship".
I haven't seen the financials, but IIHF at least tries to make ice hockey known and more popular in new countries, which is important in my opinion. NHL doesn't give a ***t if ice hockey isn't played anywhere else than Canada and US. World Cup isn't quite unknown even in European hockey countries and it's totally unknown in other European countries. Olympic tournament may get some publicity also in other countries, but that isn't enough for anything.

It may be difficult to understand for Canadians that most Europeans know nothing about ice hockey and are even less interested about it. Ice hockey is a marginal sport (at maximum) in most countries and it requires an international organization to give support, arrange international competition and make the sport more known for people. Canada doesn't need that kind of organization because you born a hockey stick sticking up from your ***es. Most of the ice hockey leagues end their season before the World Championships starts. NHL may be the only exception.

Should IIHF change the schedule because of one league that doesn't ever seem to be willing to co-operate? Should the tournament be held in July, for example, only because of NHL? Canadians of course think that yes, because it's the mightiest league in the planet. I agree that it is, but still it's just one league. There are many countries that don't have any players playing in NHL and they should then wait several months to play a tournament in the middle of the summer just because of one league. Some might still insist:"But the best players come from NHL blah blah blah...", but purpose of the IIHF is not give Canada maximum possibility to crush weak opponents but give opportunity for players from all (also small) countries to play in international tournaments (World Championship tournament, divisional tournaments, qualifications etc).

I still don't quite understand the whining about how prestigious a tournament is with the best players. There is no absolute definition for "best players" and "best players" don't guarantee the highest level of play in a short tournament. Most ice hockey spectators can't see the difference in game play between some A and C teams. Purpose of World Championships in ice hockey is not to be prestigious but a tournament where also smaller countries can compete. All countries have possibility to qualify there through divisions and qualifications.


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08-04-2010, 11:37 AM
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You are wrong. In Sweden and Finland, for example, the football season starts in spring and ends in autumn. FIFA World Cup is held when FIFA wants and not when it suits everyone. If Sweden and Finland would participate in World Cup tournament, the respective national leagues would be stopped for longer time than a month. It wouldn't be nice for the clubs for economical reasons (of course) but also for climatical reasons. Football can't be played in Finland between November and March because it's just too cold (and there's usually snow, too), so it's quite difficult to strech a season already starting mid-April and ending in October. In my opinion even mid-April is too early. So, Finnish players playing in Finnish league should play for their national team in the middle of the season. They already play qualification matches in the middle of the season. Canadians may think it's ridiculous, but it's how flexibly league things can work in some leagues.


I haven't seen the financials, but IIHF at least tries to make ice hockey known and more popular in new countries, which is important in my opinion. NHL doesn't give a ***t if ice hockey isn't played anywhere else than Canada and US. World Cup isn't quite unknown even in European hockey countries and it's totally unknown in other European countries. Olympic tournament may get some publicity also in other countries, but that isn't enough for anything.

It may be difficult to understand for Canadians that most Europeans know nothing about ice hockey and are even less interested about it. Ice hockey is a marginal sport (at maximum) in most countries and it requires an international organization to give support, arrange international competition and make the sport more known for people. Canada doesn't need that kind of organization because you born a hockey stick sticking up from your ***es. Most of the ice hockey leagues end their season before the World Championships starts. NHL is the only exception.

Should IIHF change the schedule because of one league that doesn't ever seem to be willing to co-operate? Should the tournament be held in July, for example, only because of NHL? Canadians of course think that yes, because it's the mightiest league in the planet. I agree that it is, but still it's just one league. There are many countries that don't have any players playing in NHL and they should then wait several months to play a tournament in the middle of the summer just because of one league. Some might still insist:"But the best players come from NHL blah blah blah...", but purpose of the IIHF is not give Canada maximum possibility to crush weak opponents but give oppurtunity for players from all (also small) countries to play in international tournaments (World Championship tournament, divisional tournaments, qualifications etc).

I still don't quite understand the whining about how prestigious a tournament is with the best players. There is no absolute definition for "best players" and "best players" don't guarantee the highest level of play in a short tournament. Most ice hockey spectators can't see the difference in game play between some A and C teams. Purpose of World Championships in ice hockey is not to be prestigious but tournament where also smaller countries can compete. All countries also have possibility to qualify there through divisions and qualifications.
No offense but equating the NHL to the Finnish football league is incredibly specious. Relative to football the NHL at the very least is equivalent to the English, Spanish and German leagues combined. And furthermore the FIFA World Cup is once every four years, the NHL shuts down once every four years for the Olympics anyway.

The definition for "best players" imo is Olympic rosters, and by that standard the World Championships had less then 15% of the same players.

I'd argue with so few of the top players in the world participating it calls the tournaments legitimacy as a "World Championship" into question.

I ask again. What other world championship has a similarly paltry participation rate from it's top tier talent?

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08-04-2010, 12:05 PM
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No offense but equating the NHL to the Finnish football league is incredibly specious. Relative to football the NHL at the very least is equivalent to the English, Spanish and German leagues combined. And furthermore the FIFA World Cup is once every four years, the NHL shuts down once every four years for the Olympics anyway.

The definition for "best players" imo is Olympic rosters, and by that standard the World Championships had less then 15% of the same players.

I'd argue with so few of the top players in the world participating it calls the tournaments legitimacy as a "World Championship" into question.

I ask again. What other world championship has a similarly paltry participation rate from it's top tier talent?
It's not only Finnish league. There are several leagues that need to be flexible. My point was that FIFA World Cup is held when some national leagues are ongoing.

NHL is just one league among others, though it might be difficult for many to understand. There are 16 teams in World Championships which means that most of the players come from outside of NHL even if all the best players were along. NHL is the main source of players for 5-7 top teams, but there's still ~10 other teams. North Americans may not care where the players of non-top teams come from, but IIHF cares and doesn't let one league bully around.

You may try to mix the discussion by writing of world championship tournaments of other sports, but it's useless. We're now talking about tiny marginal sport called ice hockey. I guess that it wouldn't be this problematic with the tournaments if NHL understood the role and importance of IIHF. I don't know any other sport which have this kind of issues with some specific national league bullying around not caring about others. I could call it arrogance.

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08-04-2010, 12:13 PM
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It's not only Finnish league. There are several leagues that need to be flexible. My point was that FIFA World Cup is held when some national leagues are ongoing.

NHL is just one league among others, though it might be difficult for many to understand. There are 16 teams in World Championships which means that most of the players come from outside of NHL even if all the best players were along. NHL is the main source of players for 5-7 top teams, but there's still ~10 other teams. North Americans may not care where the players of non-top teams come from, but IIHF cares and doesn't let one league bully around.

You may try to mix the discussion by writing of world championship tournaments of other sports, but it's useless. We're now talking about tiny marginal sport called ice hockey. I guess that it wouldn't be this problematic with the tournaments if NHL understood the role and importance of IIHF. I don't know any other sport which have this kind of issues with some specific national league bullying around not caring about others. I could call it arrogance.
There's a good reason FIBA doesn't hold it's World Championships annually midway through he NBA playoffs.

The NHL is dominant in hockey just as the NBA is dominant in basketball, FIBA understands this simple reality, but the IIHF probably won't relent until 5% of the best players are showing up each spring.

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08-04-2010, 12:20 PM
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There's a good reason FIBA doesn't hold it's World Championships annually midway through he NBA playoffs.
True, but still many of the best players are not playing because of fatigue, indifference, injury risks, etc.

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