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IIHF World Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup 2012

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Old
08-04-2010, 12:51 PM
  #101
zorz
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Finnish league isn't the only, which plays football in that way. Many others do as well including russian league. Anyway that comparison FIFA/IIHF is more than wrong. yeah, football world cup is held once in 4 years. But as well you have once in 4 years continental cup (european, asian etc.). That's big tournament every 2 years. And during other 2 year of the whole period national teams are playing qualifications during the whole year - every league including english or spanish has to let players go to play their international games and then continue. Sorry, but to me it seems you guys here have no clue what you are talking about. You know what? Put NHL under the control of IIHF a then you will have best on best every two years, maybe annually.

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08-04-2010, 12:57 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Maverick41 View Post
True, but still many of the best players are not playing because of fatigue, indifference, injury risks, etc.
I've only counted 12 players who would otherwise be on teams out of 288 roster spots that won't be playing.

Relative to the IIHF World Championships Canada alone in 2010 missed a greater percentage of it's best players then the entire world combined will miss in Turkey.

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08-04-2010, 01:08 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
Finnish league isn't the only, which plays football in that way. Many others do as well including russian league. Anyway that comparison FIFA/IIHF is more than wrong. yeah, football world cup is held once in 4 years. But as well you have once in 4 years continental cup (european, asian etc.). That's big tournament every 2 years. And during other 2 year of the whole period national teams are playing qualifications during the whole year - every league including english or spanish has to let players go to play their international games and then continue. Sorry, but to me it seems you guys here have no clue what you are talking about. You know what? Put NHL under the control of IIHF a then you will have best on best every two years, maybe annually.
There will be best on best every two years regardless of what the IIHF decides to do.

FIFA doesn't schedule an annual World Cup that starts midway Champions league playoffs for good reason. For a supposedly "all powerful" organization they wouldn't have a chance in hell of implementing that if they wanted to.

The status quo is a joke, and the players know it. Expect participation to continue to fall in the near future absent reforms.


Last edited by Wham City: 08-04-2010 at 01:25 PM.
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08-04-2010, 02:06 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
The NHL is dominant in hockey just as the NBA is dominant in basketball, FIBA understands this simple reality, but the IIHF probably won't relent until 5% of the best players are showing up each spring.
You should understand that most of the best players of 16 national teams participating World Championships are in even though there were no NHL players playing at all. NHL players represent only maybe 35-40% of the players in the tournament with best players and 16 teams. So basically there is always at least 60-65% of the best players always participating World Championships.

Anyway, it's quite useless argue with you, so I'm done with this thread.

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08-04-2010, 02:07 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I would like you, Nakawick and Krazy_Eyez, to tell me just one thing - why is it so big problem in you eyes to have 2 tournaments every second year? Something like:

WCh, WC
WCh
WCh, OG
WCh
It is my understanding that this is what would happen. Olympic and World Cup every 2nd year would be great for the game. I don't mind if the IIHF has a tournament every year if they want to, I just don't consider it as good of a tournament.

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Olympics are number 1 tournament for everybody, that's clear. Problem with World Cup imo is that players aren't in a good shape. But let it be. I don't mind if it is played, I would watch it, why not? But I really don't understand, why World Cups and Olympics, which are short best on best tournaments, couldn't live together with World Championship which is completely different tournament - longer and it's about players from Europe and those not playing NHL playoffs. What's the problem?
There must be a misunderstanding, the world championship would still take place every year, the only difference would be a world cup every 4 years between the Olympic years. If I had to choose to watch Canada play at the world cup or world championships, I would choose the world cup 10 times out of 10.

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08-04-2010, 03:00 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
It is my understanding that this is what would happen. Olympic and World Cup every 2nd year would be great for the game. I don't mind if the IIHF has a tournament every year if they want to, I just don't consider it as good of a tournament.
OK, then I have no problem with that. The thing I wouldn't like is NHL restricting all it's players from coming to World Championship in the year of World Cup or any other years.

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Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
There must be a misunderstanding, the world championship would still take place every year, the only difference would be a world cup every 4 years between the Olympic years. If I had to choose to watch Canada play at the world cup or world championships, I would choose the world cup 10 times out of 10.
It's ok, but why not to watch both events... that was my main point.

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08-04-2010, 04:36 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
It's ok, but why not to watch both events... that was my main point.
Well he says "If I had to choose" So maybe he will watch both if he gets a chance.
But don't forget that the WHC is mostly played in Europe and thus it's not as easy to follow for people in North America due to the time difference. Just like it will be difficult for many of us Europeans to follow the World Cup if it is played in Canada or the US.

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08-04-2010, 06:32 PM
  #108
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i dont know why everyone is complaining

watch everything!!!

i think less of the world championships.... yes its waterered down, but there is lots of competition and my team is pretty successful

i think the world cup is awesome, granted the guys arent in the best shape but they are still professionals who work year round to be in great shape

and as for the olympics, i was up at 5 and 7 in the morning to watch games when they were in italy, also when the world championships are in europe in the early morning i take my sick days tehe

point is all the tournaments are valid, so watch them all, its still great competitive sport!!!

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08-04-2010, 07:34 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Eurovision is a popular contest but it hardly follows that these are the best musicians in their respective countries.
You didn't just bring the Eurovision song contest into this...

Man, you're now COMPLETELY out to lunch on this subject, it would be best if you educated yourself better on the subject before contributing again.

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08-04-2010, 08:34 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I'd argue the level of competition makes it more prestigious.

I mean imagine where for from next year until 2020 only 20 of the best 128 players showed up for the Australian Open annually.

And instead an upstart major was created, let's call it the Brazilian Open where 110/128 of the world's top players showed up annually.

In 2020 what would be the more prestigious major to win?
Right, but what makes the level of competition of World Cup better?....particularly when players are working the rust off summer vacation.
In this particular instance, higher talent level does not guarantee higher level of play.

For instance, I'm fairly confident a seasoned/game shape Canadian "D" team could defeat the "A" team coming off summer vacation.

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08-04-2010, 09:02 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
You didn't just bring the Eurovision song contest into this...

Man, you're now COMPLETELY out to lunch on this subject, it would be best if you educated yourself better on the subject before contributing again.
C'mon it's simple really.

Both are popular in Europe, both crown an annual winner, and both respective audiences are under no illusions the participants are the best at their respective craft in their native countries.

The Shortlist Music Prize is to the World Cup as Eurovision is to the World Championships.


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08-04-2010, 09:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Right, but what makes the level of competition of World Cup better?....particularly when players are working the rust off summer vacation.
In this particular instance, higher talent level does not guarantee higher level of play.

For instance, I'm fairly confident a seasoned/game shape Canadian "D" team could defeat the "A" team coming off summer vacation.
The 87 Canada Cup was played in the September and it's widely considered some of the greatest hockey ever played. Add to that fact improvements in training and conditioning in the modern NHL and I think the level of competition in 2012 will be extremely high.

By the same token aren't players nursing more injuries and are generally more banged up at the end of the season?

Canada's "D" team would be crushed, we talking Raycroft as starting goaltender here?


Last edited by Wham City: 08-04-2010 at 10:31 PM.
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08-04-2010, 10:06 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
The 87 Canada Cup was played in the September and it's widely considered some of the greatest hockey ever played. Add to that fact improvements in training and conditioning in the modern NHL and I think the level of competition in 2012 will be extremely high.

By the same token aren't players nursing more injuries and are generally more banged up at the end of the season?

Canada' "D" team would be crushed, we talking Raycroft as starting goaltender here?
Mason

Olympics

* Martin Brodeur,
* Roberto Luongo,
* Marc-Andre Fleury,

* Scott Niedermayer,
* Chris Pronger,
* Shea Weber,
* Drew Doughty,
* Duncan Keith
* Dan Boyle,
* Brent Seabrook,

* Sidney Crosby,
* Rick Nash,
* Jarome Iginla,
* Mike Richards,
* Joe Thornton,
* Patrick Marleau,
* Ryan Getzlaf,
* Brenden Morrow,
* Corey Perry,
* Dany Heatley,
* Eric Staal,
* Patrice Bergeron,
* Jonathan Toews,

World Championships

Chris Mason
Chad Johnson

Francois Beauchemin
Brent Burns
Michael Del Zotto
Mark Giordano
Tyler Myers
Marc Staal
Kyle Cumisky
Kris Russell

Rene Bourque
Steve Downie
Matt Duchene
Evander Kane
Brooks Laich
Steve Ott
Corey Perry
Rich Peverley
Ryan Smyth
Steven Stamkos
Ray Whitney
John Tavares
Jordan Eberle

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08-05-2010, 01:15 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
There's a good reason FIBA doesn't hold it's World Championships annually midway through he NBA playoffs.

The NHL is dominant in hockey just as the NBA is dominant in basketball, FIBA understands this simple reality, but the IIHF probably won't relent until 5% of the best players are showing up each spring.
The basketball WCh were held in Aug/Sep long before NBA players were even allowed to take part, so obviously it has little to do with accomodating them.

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08-05-2010, 06:31 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The basketball WCh were held in Aug/Sep long before NBA players were even allowed to take part, so obviously it has little to do with accomodating them.
I was just drawing out a hypothetical. FIBA would never be foolish enough to move to an annual tournament that started midway through the NBA playoffs. Just as FIFA wouldn't have a chance in hell of implementing an annual World Cup that started midway through the Champions League knockout stages.

Hockey's annual World Championship is a relic among it's sporting peers.


Last edited by Wham City: 08-05-2010 at 07:24 AM.
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08-05-2010, 06:51 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I was just drawing out a hypothetical. FIBA would never be foolish enough to move to an annual tournament that started midway through the NBA playoffs.
The IIHF did not do that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Just as FIFA wouldn't have a chance in hell of implementing an annual World Cup that started midway through the Champions League knockout stages.

Hockey's annual World Championship is a relic among it's sporting peers.
The NHL is a relic among it's sporting peers: all the other sports leagues stop when the world championships are being played, and if they don't then at least they are forced to release the players (see the Afr cup of nations which is being played midway through the european season). Other sports leagues also co-operate with each other, as opposed to finishing the season two months after everybody else or threatening to not release the players for the olympics (not to mention stealing players left and right).
But sure, blame the IHWC

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08-05-2010, 07:28 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The IIHF did not do that either.


The NHL is a relic among it's sporting peers: all the other sports leagues stop when the world championships are being played, and if they don't then at least they are forced to release the players (see the Afr cup of nations which is being played midway through the european season). Other sports leagues also co-operate with each other, as opposed to finishing the season two months after everybody else or threatening to not release the players for the olympics (not to mention stealing players left and right).
But sure, blame the IHWC
There's a huge difference between a quadrennial world championship and an annual one, like a chasm of difference.

I ask again what other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?

There isn't one.


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08-05-2010, 08:03 AM
  #118
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I hope Russia boycotts this pantomime. It would be fantastic if other nations did the same.
Go ahead - boycott. Kiss the NHL goodbye for 2014.

Idiots if they do - so yeah - decent chance of a boycott.

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08-05-2010, 08:12 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
There's a huge difference between a quadrennial world championship and an annual one, like a chasm of difference.

I ask again what other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?

There isn't one.
Football has annual world championship qualifiers in the middle of the season of it's most elite professional leagues.

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08-05-2010, 08:19 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Football has annual world championship qualifiers in the middle of the season of it's most elite professional leagues.
Note how I said playoffs.

FIFA doesn't have an annual World Cup that starts midway through the knockout stages of the Champions league.

Come to the 2011 World Cup! But don't expect to see Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Kaka, Villa, etc, because they're still playing in the Champions league!

That would be a straight up joke.

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08-05-2010, 08:24 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Note how I said playoffs.

FIFA doesn't have an annual World Cup that starts midway through the knockout stages of the Champions league.

Come to the 2011 World Cup! But don't expect to see Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Kaka, Villa, etc, because they're still playing in the Champions league!

That would be a straight up joke.
You just can't compare Champions league to NHL. There is nothing like NHL in football. Champions league is organized by UEFA - european football association. It's not private league. It's all about agreement of two international organizations, FIFA and UEFA, which are closely connected. Both events are directly organized by official international organizations, unlike the World Cup of NHL or NHL playoffs.

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08-05-2010, 08:32 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
You just can't compare Champions league to NHL. There is nothing like NHL in football. Champions league is organized by UEFA - european football association. It's not private league. It's all about agreement of two international organizations, FIFA and UEFA, which are closely connected. Both events are directly organized by official international organizations, unlike the World Cup of NHL or NHL playoffs.
I'm comparing it in the sense of elite club playoffs being in conflict with an annual international tournament.

The question remains.

What other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?

The IIHF is a lonely outlier in this vein.

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08-05-2010, 08:36 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Come to the 2011 World Cup! But don't expect to see Messi, Ronaldo, Rooney, Kaka, Villa, etc, because they're still playing in the Champions league!
The CL would then have to be moved to earlier in the season.

Really, only NA is stupid enough to schedule league play during international competitions. And it's not just the IHWC, they also did the same during the olympics prior to 98.


Last edited by jekoh: 08-05-2010 at 08:43 AM.
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08-05-2010, 08:57 AM
  #124
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The CL would then have to be moved to earlier in the season.

Really, only NA is stupid enough to schedule league play during international competitions. And it's not just the IHWC, they also did the same during the olympics prior to 98.
To illustrate absurdity sometimes people use hypotheticals.

As for the Olympics that's more complicated, the IOC only allowed full professional participation from professionals starting after the 1988 games.

FIFA's regulations on Olympic participation are much less liberal by comparison.

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08-05-2010, 09:03 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
To illustrate absurdity sometimes people use hypotheticals.
What is absurd is the idea that the World Cup would be without the top players. In your scenario, the CL would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
As for the Olympics that's more complicated, the IOC only allowed full professional participation from professionals starting in 1988.
That's still 3 olympics where the NHL decided to not take part.

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