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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup 2012

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Old
08-05-2010, 09:11 AM
  #126
Wham City
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
What is absurd is the idea that the World Cup would be without the top players. In your scenario, the CL would be.


That's still 3 Olympics where the NHL decided to not take part.
This is precisely my point. It is absurd, just as the an annual World Championship scheduled opposite the NHL playoffs and missing the majority of the elite players is.

The World Cup would be a far less important tournament if it was held every year with 80% of the top players foregoing the tournament.

They were only free to negotiate an agreement after the 1988 games, so they only missed two games in 92 and 94.

If the winter games had continued on normal 4 year cycle they would have only missed the 92 games, as the NHL, IOC, NHLPA, and IIHf signed an agreement in 1995.


Last edited by Wham City: 08-05-2010 at 09:20 AM.
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08-05-2010, 09:24 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
They were only free to negotiate an agreement after the 1988 games, so they only missed two games in 92 and 94.
Pro players, though not the top ones, competed in Calgary in 1988. The top pro tennis players competed in Seoul.

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08-05-2010, 09:30 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Pro players, though not the top ones, competed in Calgary in 1988. The top pro tennis players competed in Seoul.
Quote:
After the 1988 Games, the IOC voted to declare all professionals eligible for the Olympics, subject to the approval of the international federations in charge of each sport. All but three federations eventually went along with the lifting of restrictions promoted by the IOC. Soccer and baseball continued to forbid professionals, while soccer has agreed to allow three professionals on their roster in addition to the professionals under the age of 23, against whom there is no prohibition.
http://www.usatoday.com/olympics/owg98/osytr01.htm

Had the Winter Games been on a traditional 4 year cycle the only games the NHL would not have participated in which they could have would of been 92.

But that's beside the point.

Still no takers?

What other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?

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08-05-2010, 09:54 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/olympics/owg98/osytr01.htm

Had the Winter Games been on a traditional 4 year cycle the only games the NHL would not have participated in which they could have would of been 92.
And 88.

NBA players were not eligible in 88 because of FIBA, but NHLers were as they had long been allowed by the IIHF.

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08-05-2010, 10:02 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
And 88.

NBA players were not eligible in 88 because of FIBA, but NHLers were as they had long been allowed by the IIHF.
Uh, no.

Quote:
After the 1988 Games, the IOC voted to declare all professionals eligible for the Olympics, subject to the approval of the international federations in charge of each sport.
http://www.usatoday.com/olympics/owg98/osytr01.htm

The $64,000 question.

What other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?

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08-05-2010, 10:14 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
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After the 1988 Games, the IOC voted to declare all professionals eligible for the Olympics, subject to the approval of the international federations in charge of each sport.
Repeat, all professionals. Do you even understand your own language?

Steffi Graf won the tennis tournament in 88, are you going to argue she was not a professional?

The vote actually happened in 1986, btw.

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08-05-2010, 10:27 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Repeat, all professionals. Do you even understand your own language?

Steffi Graf won the tennis tournament in 88, are you going to argue she was not a professional?

The vote actually happened in 1986, btw.
After the 1988 Calgary games but before the 1988 Seoul games the rules came into effect.

The first time major professional team athletes showed up was Barcelona.

The first games the NHL could of been at was 92.

The vote happened in 86 but it's effects weren't immediate.

Just as laws are passed by governments that have stipulations that don't come into effect for years.

If you have some evidence that NHL players could have legally played in the Calgary games by all means let's see it.

Anyone care to take a stab?

What other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?


Last edited by Wham City: 08-05-2010 at 10:45 AM.
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08-05-2010, 10:58 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
After the 1988 Calgary games the Seoul games occured months later.
Are you now arguing that Seoul was "after the 88 games" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
If you have some evidence that NHL players could have legally played in the Calgary games by all means let's see it.
The evidence is that some actually did. Jim Peplinski for instance, who played 75 NHL games in 87-88.

Btw, pro football players had already taken part in the Olympics in 1984.


Last edited by jekoh: 08-05-2010 at 11:10 AM.
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08-05-2010, 11:08 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The evidence is that some actually did. Jim Peplinski for instance, who played 75 NHL games in 87-88
Fair enough. They missed out on three games, under normal circumstances it would have been two.

I was going off this.
Quote:
After the 1988 Games, the IOC voted to declare all professionals eligible for the Olympics, subject to the approval of the international federations in charge of each sport. All but three federations eventually went along with the lifting of restrictions promoted by the IOC. Soccer and baseball continued to forbid professionals, while soccer has agreed to allow three professionals on their roster in addition to the professionals under the age of 23, against whom there is no prohibition.
I guess it's wrong.

The question remains. Any handball experts know if there's a match?

What other sport has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of it's most elite professional league?


Last edited by Wham City: 08-05-2010 at 11:20 AM.
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08-05-2010, 11:20 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Fair enough. They missed out on three games, under normal circumstances it would have been two.
Under normal circumstances it would have been zero. But unfortunately for the hockey world, the NHL is not a normal sports league. Even the NBA took part as soon as they could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I guess it's wrong.
I don't know about "wrong" but it's not perfectly accurate and that last sentence is certainly confusing. The main point though is that in 1988 all pros became eligible, meaning some already were.

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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
The question remains.
It's already been answered.


Last edited by jekoh: 08-05-2010 at 11:27 AM.
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08-05-2010, 11:24 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Under normal circumstances it would have been zero. But unfortunately for the hockey world, the NHL is not a normal sports league. Even the NBA took part as soon as they could.


It's already been answered.
FIFA and MLB are much more restrictive when it comes to player participation in the Olympics then the NHL.

Football doesn't even close to satisfying the question. It's world championship is quadrennial not annual.


Last edited by Wham City: 08-05-2010 at 11:31 AM.
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08-05-2010, 11:32 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
FIFA and MLB are much more restrictive when it comes to player participation in the Olympics then the NHL.
FIFA is not a sports league. MLB is arguably worse, in fact they got their sport thrown out of the olympics. The NHL is still very near the bottom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Football doesn't even close to satisfying the question. It's world championship is quadrennial not annual.
There are qualifiers every year for major tournaments. Kicks off just next week actually.

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08-05-2010, 11:42 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
FIFA is not a sports league. MLB is arguably worse, in fact they got their sport thrown out of the olympics. The NHL is still very near the bottom.


There are qualifiers every year for major tournaments. Kicks off just next week actually.
But FIFA is the controlling international body, it has age quotas to stifle any perceived competition which would arise with the World Cup.

The NHL by comparison is a downright model Olympic partner.

When the World Cup is played annually opposite the domestic and Champions League knockout stages I will gladly tip my cap to the visionaries that are the IIHF.

I"m just not holding my breath on that one.


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08-05-2010, 01:20 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
But FIFA is the controlling international body, it has age quotas to stifle any perceived competition which would arise with the World Cup.

The NHL by comparison is a downright model Olympic partner.
You do realise the olympic tournament and the world cup are both fifa tournaments, right? Comparing FIFA with a sports league does not make any sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
When the World Cup is played annually opposite the domestic and Champions League knockout stages I will gladly tip my cap to the visionaries that are the IIHF.
You make it sound like it's a lot of leagues that still go on during the Worlds. In the reality, it's just one country (sometimes with one team from a second country). All the others were able to agree on when to play. Your proposed scenario does not happen because no league other than the NHL is stupid enough to refuse to adopt a schedule similar to the one in other countries (and those that do because of their country's climate simply stop their season and that's it).

The hockey world would be much better off if the NHL would simply disappear.

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08-05-2010, 02:17 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
You do realise the olympic tournament and the world cup are both fifa tournaments, right? Comparing FIFA with a sports league does not make any sense.



You make it sound like it's a lot of leagues that still go on during the Worlds. In the reality, it's just one country (sometimes with one team from a second country). All the others were able to agree on when to play. Your proposed scenario does not happen because no league other than the NHL is stupid enough to refuse to adopt a schedule similar to the one in other countries (and those that do because of their country's climate simply stop their season and that's it).

The hockey world would be much better off if the NHL would simply disappear.
FIFA's a partner with the IOC just as the IIHF is a partner just as the NHL is a partner.

FIFA's anti-competitive quota system limits professional players free-agency to participte in the Olympics. The NHL by comparison is a much fuller and less-restrictive Olympic partner. If the NHL were to craft a rule in the next CBA that Olympic participation would only be open to players 22 and under, then I think it would be fair to say they're a worse partner then FIFA.

The reality is the NHL isn't going anywhere and the World Championships will continue to be irrelevant absent reforms.

Until the IIHF removes itself from being the sole answer to this question it will continue to erode any legitimacy it's "World Championship" ever had.

What sporting body has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of said sports most elite professional league?


Last edited by Wham City: 08-05-2010 at 02:23 PM.
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08-05-2010, 03:53 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
FIFA's a partner with the IOC just as the IIHF is a partner just as the NHL is a partner.
No. FIFA and IIHF are organisers on behalf of the IOC, the NHL is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
What sporting body has an annual world championship that conflicts with the playoff schedule of said sports most elite professional league?
Man, stop it, you look like a complete idiot repeating the same thing over and over again.

Just because you don't pay any attention whatsoever to what is said to you, it does not mean your points have to be repeated as nauseam.
Well, at least not until you end up in people's ignore lists.

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08-05-2010, 04:36 PM
  #142
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No. FIFA and IIHF are organisers on behalf of the IOC, the NHL is not.



Man, stop it, you look like a complete idiot repeating the same thing over and over again.

Just because you don't pay any attention whatsoever to what is said to you, it does not mean your points have to be repeated as nauseam.
Well, at least not until you end up in people's ignore lists.
How can you castigate the NHL on one hand for things that happened many years ago and on the other turn a blind eye to FIFA"s current anti-competitive practices vis a vis the Olympics?

Yes one's a league and one's an organizing committee but both hold significant power and in this case FIFA is exercising it's very heavy-handedly

What have I disregarded? I've taken your football example head on, but it was a specious argument so that's why I repeat myself.

Show me an annual World Cup overlapping with league playoffs or an annual FIBA World Championship that runs opposite the NBA playoffs and I'll concede the point.


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08-05-2010, 06:01 PM
  #143
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It's ok, but why not to watch both events... that was my main point.
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Well he says "If I had to choose" So maybe he will watch both if he gets a chance.
But don't forget that the WHC is mostly played in Europe and thus it's not as easy to follow for people in North America due to the time difference. Just like it will be difficult for many of us Europeans to follow the World Cup if it is played in Canada or the US.
I do watch both, when I have a chance to. The World Championship games are on in either the morning or afternoon where I live (which is 4 hours ahead from where Krazy_Eyes lives). That means that I can only watch games on Saturday or Sunday because of work. I did attend 2 games at the 2008 World Championship in Halifax, which is the only time it has ever been held in Canada. I love hockey but I would rather see a world cup game. I think having the World Cup alternate between Europe and North America would change your minds.

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08-05-2010, 06:40 PM
  #144
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I think having the World Cup alternate between Europe and North America would change your minds.
We all know that will never happen. Games in Europe=bad times for North American tv->bad ratings->even less interest in the US for the tournament etc. NHL/NHLPA will ALWAYS demand for the finals to be played on North American soil.

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08-05-2010, 07:22 PM
  #145
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We all know that will never happen. Games in Europe=bad times for North American tv->bad ratings->even less interest in the US for the tournament etc. NHL/NHLPA will ALWAYS demand for the finals to be played on North American soil.
Jussi, you might be the most pessimistic poster of all time Maybe the world championships will be held in north America more often than Halleys comet.

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08-05-2010, 08:17 PM
  #146
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apparently there was no coverage of the american games at the worlds this year ?

there was fine coverage of canada and i watched as many games as my work sked allowed

i was watchin highlights of the last world cup from sweden and finland and it seemed like no one showed up?

i know wherever games in canada are ill try to get to one (dont judge, im 6 hours to the closest real city)

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08-06-2010, 06:00 AM
  #147
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Jussi, you might be the most pessimistic poster of all time Maybe the world championships will be held in north America more often than Halleys comet.
No fear of that, neither Canada or USA WANTS to stage it. 2008 was a one time thing due to the IIHF centennial.

And it's not pessimism, it's realism. I KNOW the European sports fans mentality and media's interest. The World Cup, if held in August/September or whenever, lacks the interest of both at that time of the year. Also to afrobomber11, the ticket prices alone scare a lot of the biggest hockey fans away. Your average Finnish hockey fan is only willing to spend money on their local team, one or two of Finland's games (primarily the Sweden game) at the Karjala tournament (Euro Hockey Tour) or the World Championships.


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08-06-2010, 12:36 PM
  #148
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i beg to differ, we in canada would hold it more, problem being how can any of our 6 nhl cities host if they are involved in playoffs

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08-06-2010, 08:10 PM
  #149
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i beg to differ, we in canada would hold it more, problem being how can any of our 6 nhl cities host if they are involved in playoffs
No, that was the message from IIHF via the Finnish hockey federation boss Kalervo Kummola. This was a one time thing. There hasn't been nor will there be real interest for hosting the Worlds.

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08-07-2010, 11:21 AM
  #150
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No, that was the message from IIHF via the Finnish hockey federation boss Kalervo Kummola. This was a one time thing. There hasn't been nor will there be real interest for hosting the Worlds.
uh, ok so the finnish boss told the iihf that canada only gets it once, or on wants it once or am i missing something entirely

seems like kinda a bs story if you ask me

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