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Old
05-31-2010, 03:32 AM
  #1
Koster
 
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Jordan Staal to Buffalo

We all know our Top Six needs a shake up and I know we are still looking for that number one Center, with Jordan Staal stuck behind Crosby and Geno I believe Jordan Staal has the potential to be a number one Center here in Buffalo

I don't know what Pittsburgh's Price Tag is for Staal but I would imagine they are looking to add Wingers for Crosby and Geno, a Checking Line(3rd Line) Center and Defencemen that are under contract knowing they only have three Defencemen under contract

Personally, I would love Jordan Staal in a Buffalo Sabres Jersey and I am confident that Buffalo and Pittsburgh could be great realistic trading partners that could benefit both sides

At the Draft

I could see Darcy Regier flipping Ray Shero

Taking on Approx. $5.65 Million to $8.65 Million($5,650,000-$8,650,000)

Left Winger Tim Kennedy(Sal:RFA)
Right Winger Drew Stafford(Sal:1 Year/2.3 Mil)
Center Paul Gaustad(Sal:2 Year/2.5 Mil)
Defencemen Chris Butler(Sal:1 Year/0.850 Mil)/Defencemen Andrej Sekera(Sal:1 Year/1.250 Mil)
ATL 4th Round Pick 2010(98th Overall)/Rights to Defencemen Henrik Tallinder(UFA) or Defencemen Toni Lydman(UFA)
BUF 1st Round Pick 2010(23rd Overall)

For

Taking On $4.0 Million($4,000,000)

Center Jordan Staal(Sal:3 Years/4.00 Mil)
PIT 3rd Round Pick 2010(83rd Overall)

Teams Recieve

Buffalo Recieves

-Number One Center
-Another 3rd Round Pick in 2010(So it gives Buffalo now four in total) so it gives Regier an option of flipping those pick to get a late First Round Pick or an early Second Round Pick

Pittsburgh Recieves

-Two Wingers(One Left and One Right) with Top Six Potential
-A Pure Checking(Third Line) Center
-A Young Defenseman with lots of upside and has Top Four Potential(both have atleast have two years of experience)
-A Early 4th(Mid) Round Draft Pick VIA Atlanta Thrashers or rights to sign a Defencemen(Henrik Tallinder or Toni Lydman)
-A Late(Early Twenties) First Round Pick in 2010(which gives them two First Round Picks in 2010 now)

Both Sides fill their needs and voids, Regier and Shero finish business and Upgrade their respective Team's and both Buffalo Sabres and the Pittsburgh Penguins are better Team's after making the Deal

2010-2011 Buffalo Sabres Top Six

Vanek-Staal-Ennis
Roy-Connolly-Pominville

-Move Derek Roy to Wing(Left)

2010-2011 Buffalo Sabres Bottom Six

Mancari-Hecht-Grier
Kaleta-X-Kassian

-Promote and give Mark Mancari a chance to prove he belongs with the Big Club(Mancari gives us a big body on the Checking Line,has some sandpaper to his game and provides a scoring touch as well)
-Move Hecht back to Center to replace Goose as the Checking Line Center
-Sign a Fourth Line Center that has the ability and upside to play on the Checking Line(Baring Injury) so we have a replacement incase Hecht goes down maybe a Matt Cullen Type Center?
-Bring Up(Promote) Zack Kassian to the National Hockey League(NHL) to provide some Size and Grit in the Bottom Six that also can be a threat scoring with that skill he possesses on the Grind Line playing opposite of Kaleta

Thoughts on Dealing for Jordan Staal? Would Pittsburgh do this Deal(Overpayment/Underpayment)?

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05-31-2010, 06:44 AM
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Too many players, too many picks IMO.

And honestly, as good as Staal is in his role, I'm not exactly sold on him being a top-notch offensive center, who'd be able to carry his line offensively regardless of the attention which he'd be getting from the opposition.

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05-31-2010, 07:07 AM
  #3
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Pittsburgh is far too close to the cap to trade a 22 year old 3rd line center making 4 million for a 28 year old 3rd line center making 2.5 IMHO.

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05-31-2010, 07:47 AM
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Are you honestly suggesting Staal is a #1 center?

49 points and being a + player on one of the best teams in the NHL makes you a #1 center?

Roy must be a superstar center by those standards....

We all said Vanek was so successful because he had great players in front of him when he scored all those points, now your trying to tell us that Jordan Staal is hindered by having great players taking away pressure from him?

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05-31-2010, 10:15 AM
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lol number one center.

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Old
05-31-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fightclubber25 View Post
lol number one center.
I find you guys laughing at the op's comment concerning Jordan Staal being a No. 1 centerman funnier than the actual comment itself.

While I agree now that he is not a No. 1 centerman (he's a third line centerman at this point), one has to acknowledge the fact he's playing behind the two best centermen in this known hockey world. Also keep in mind Staal has produced back-to-back 49 point campaigns and did this on the third line at the ages of 20 and 21. Oh btw he's 21 right now, not 22. It's not hard to do the math.

I don't know about you guys, but most players are not taken 2nd overall to be a third line centerman, granted he was and now has. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to play out of position well. Didn't adjust to well when he was slotted on the wing playing with the big boys.

Either way, we have a kid who fired 29 goals at 18 fresh out of Junior in his rookie year, and while rushed, that in itself was an impressive feat. He was much more noticeable in these past playoffs than Malkin, and while I do think it's premature to call him a 1st liner, I also believe it's premature to say he doesn't have it in him to one day become one.

He has the pedigree and talent to become a star in this league and he will, but right now his growth and development as a player has been stunted due to him being regulated to third line duties. I have no idea why Shero took Staal 2nd overall when clearly we had strength down the middle. I suppose Malkin wasn't a for-sure thing at the time and he wanted to take who he felt was the best available player at the time in the draft over positional need. Although it would have been nice if we had drafted for the latter. Our wingers are bunk.

But I do believe Staal has it in him to one day become a top-six centerman. Unfortunately that means either one of Malkin or Jordan will be going for that to happen.

P.S. I truly do hate trade proposals on these forums. They are so frivolous.

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05-31-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
I find you guys laughing at the op's comment concerning Jordan Staal being a No. 1 centerman funnier than the actual comment itself.

While I agree now that he is not a No. 1 centerman (he's a third line centerman at this point), one has to acknowledge the fact he's playing behind the two best centermen in this known hockey world. Also keep in mind Staal has produced back-to-back 49 point campaigns and did this on the third line at the ages of 20 and 21. Oh btw he's 21 right now, not 22. It's not hard to do the math.

I don't know about you guys, but most players are not taken 2nd overall to be a third line centerman, granted he was and now has. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to play out of position well. Didn't adjust to well when he was slotted on the wing playing with the big boys.

Either way, we have a kid who fired 29 goals at 18 fresh out of Junior in his rookie year, and while rushed, that in itself was an impressive feat. He was much more noticeable in these past playoffs than Malkin, and while I do think it's premature to call him a 1st liner, I also believe it's premature to say he doesn't have it in him to one day become one.

He has the pedigree and talent to become a star in this league and he will, but right now his growth and development as a player has been stunted due to him being regulated to third line duties. I have no idea why Shero took Staal 2nd overall when clearly we had strength down the middle. I suppose Malkin wasn't a for-sure thing at the time and he wanted to take who he felt was the best available player at the time in the draft over positional need. Although it would have been nice if we had drafted for the latter. Our wingers are bunk.

But I do believe Staal has it in him to one day become a top-six centerman. Unfortunately that means either one of Malkin or Jordan will be going for that to happen.

P.S. I truly do hate trade proposals on these forums. They are so frivolous.
Sabres fans have seen first hand how being hidden behind two dangerous scoring lines can inflate offensive totals. To be a #1 center you have to not only get on the scoresheet more often than Staal has, but you have to do it while being the focus of the other team's checking lines.

Is it possible that Staal can become a #1 center? Sure. But the idea that he is a #1 center RIGHT NOW is laughable.


As for the trade proposal, it's ****ing terrible. The Sabres give up WAAAAY too much.

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Old
05-31-2010, 12:28 PM
  #9
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I'm really not sold on Staal on being a #1 Centerman yet, but at the same time not sold on hes NOT a Centerman. If I was gonna go after Staal I would:

(WOULD NOT HAPPEN)
To Pit:
Pominville
3rd

To Buf:
Staal

*I think Pit gets a little less Cap room but I Could be wrong
Pit gets:
A scoring Winger for Crosby/Malkin. Plays a good two way game with a wicked shot. Was one of the more dangerous scorers on this team when he was with Briere. Imagine with Crosby.

Buf gets:
A TRUE CENTER that would be a fixture in the middle. A good two way player that helps in all situations. A player that would/could fit in Lindy's style of play with some wheels.

Now if they did that, it gives us more room to look at our Wingers in the pipelines. Also it gives players that have played Center but are wingers a more comfortable feeling knowing they won't be moved.

If this wasn't Buffalo's lone move I would do it, but if it is then no.

I would love to see our top 9 looking like:

Ennis-Staal-Vanek
Kennedy-Cullen-Connolly
Hecht-Roy-Grier

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05-31-2010, 01:06 PM
  #10
Corto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Sabres fans have seen first hand how being hidden behind two dangerous scoring lines can inflate offensive totals. To be a #1 center you have to not only get on the scoresheet more often than Staal has, but you have to do it while being the focus of the other team's checking lines.
Spot on, exactly what I meant in my previous post.

It's not disrespect, but most of us witnessed the drop off the awesomeness of Afinogenov, Vanek and Roy when Briere was here...
Only to find out, sadly, it's a very different game when Pronger is playing you instead of Randy Jones.

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05-31-2010, 01:54 PM
  #11
SabresAreScaryGood
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I thought we were getting Jordan Staal for second there.

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Old
05-31-2010, 04:01 PM
  #12
Gerbe42
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Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
I thought we were getting Jordan Staal for second there.
as did I

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05-31-2010, 04:43 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Sabres fans have seen first hand how being hidden behind two dangerous scoring lines can inflate offensive totals. To be a #1 center you have to not only get on the scoresheet more often than Staal has, but you have to do it while being the focus of the other team's checking lines.

Is it possible that Staal can become a #1 center? Sure. But the idea that he is a #1 center RIGHT NOW is laughable.


As for the trade proposal, it's ****ing terrible. The Sabres give up WAAAAY too much.
I won't argue that as of now he's not a No. 1 line centerman but he has the talent and the capability of becoming one. Any guy who can score virtually 50 point seasons back-to-back on a third line at 20 and 21, with the vision, hands, and feet he has can and will eventually become top line material. Problem is that won't happen if things don't change in the foreseeable future in Pittsburgh or him. We need wingers so badly it's not even funny. Crosby is amazing. Any guy who can put up top 3 points with dead weight is something special. I also knew that Poni deal was bad for us. I much rather have Caputi than Tangradi. Caputi could become a Franzen.. he can become a big body that can get garbage goals and he can win battles along the boards, and he scores must of his goals from close within.

Again my biggest pet peave on these forums is not people making premature judgment calls, but all of these phony baloney proposals.

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Old
05-31-2010, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Is it possible that Staal can become a #1 center? Sure. But the idea that he is a #1 center RIGHT NOW is laughable.
Especially since he isn't getting the attention of team's top defensive pairings and isn't exactly tearing up the stats.

Staal is an awesome player, but yeah. He's not a #1 at this point, and to treat him as such in a trade would be silly.

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05-31-2010, 05:00 PM
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PensFan6687
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Originally Posted by Clock View Post
Especially since he isn't getting the attention of team's top defensive pairings and isn't exactly tearing up the stats.

Staal is an awesome player, but yeah. He's not a #1 at this point, and to treat him as such in a trade would be silly.
Anyone who is a lock for damn near 50 points on the third line is tearing up the stats in my books. You need to put things into perspective. What do you expect? I can't see both Malkin and Staal still being on this team in a couple years from now, as they will need to address issues. That being said, the Pens need to shore up their wings and find a proper replacement in the future for Gonchar, unless Despres can come in and do a Myers.


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05-31-2010, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
Anyone who is a lock for damn near 50 points on the third line is tearing up the stats in my books.
Absolutely, but not for a guy who some are touting as a ready-to-go first liner. The discussion is based around Staal in the context of playing on a first line against a team's best defensemen. 50 points on the third line doesn't make me feel like he'll produce enough on the first line given what the Sabres would lose on the trade.

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05-31-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Koster View Post
We all know our Top Six needs a shake up and I know we are still looking for that number one Center, with Jordan Staal stuck behind Crosby and Geno I believe Jordan Staal has the potential to be a number one Center here in Buffalo

I don't know what Pittsburgh's Price Tag is for Staal but I would imagine they are looking to add Wingers for Crosby and Geno, a Checking Line(3rd Line) Center and Defencemen that are under contract knowing they only have three Defencemen under contract

Personally, I would love Jordan Staal in a Buffalo Sabres Jersey and I am confident that Buffalo and Pittsburgh could be great realistic trading partners that could benefit both sides

At the Draft

I could see Darcy Regier flipping Ray Shero

Taking on Approx. $5.65 Million to $8.65 Million($5,650,000-$8,650,000)

Left Winger Tim Kennedy(Sal:RFA)
Right Winger Drew Stafford(Sal:1 Year/2.3 Mil)
Center Paul Gaustad(Sal:2 Year/2.5 Mil)
Defencemen Chris Butler(Sal:1 Year/0.850 Mil)/Defencemen Andrej Sekera(Sal:1 Year/1.250 Mil)
ATL 4th Round Pick 2010(98th Overall)/Rights to Defencemen Henrik Tallinder(UFA) or Defencemen Toni Lydman(UFA)
BUF 1st Round Pick 2010(23rd Overall)

For

Taking On $4.0 Million($4,000,000)

Center Jordan Staal(Sal:3 Years/4.00 Mil)
PIT 3rd Round Pick 2010(83rd Overall)

Teams Recieve

Buffalo Recieves

-Number One Center
-Another 3rd Round Pick in 2010(So it gives Buffalo now four in total) so it gives Regier an option of flipping those pick to get a late First Round Pick or an early Second Round Pick

Pittsburgh Recieves

-Two Wingers(One Left and One Right) with Top Six Potential
-A Pure Checking(Third Line) Center
-A Young Defenseman with lots of upside and has Top Four Potential(both have atleast have two years of experience)
-A Early 4th(Mid) Round Draft Pick VIA Atlanta Thrashers or rights to sign a Defencemen(Henrik Tallinder or Toni Lydman)
-A Late(Early Twenties) First Round Pick in 2010(which gives them two First Round Picks in 2010 now)

Both Sides fill their needs and voids, Regier and Shero finish business and Upgrade their respective Team's and both Buffalo Sabres and the Pittsburgh Penguins are better Team's after making the Deal

2010-2011 Buffalo Sabres Top Six

Vanek-Staal-Ennis
Roy-Connolly-Pominville

-Move Derek Roy to Wing(Left)

2010-2011 Buffalo Sabres Bottom Six

Mancari-Hecht-Grier
Kaleta-X-Kassian

-Promote and give Mark Mancari a chance to prove he belongs with the Big Club(Mancari gives us a big body on the Checking Line,has some sandpaper to his game and provides a scoring touch as well)
-Move Hecht back to Center to replace Goose as the Checking Line Center
-Sign a Fourth Line Center that has the ability and upside to play on the Checking Line(Baring Injury) so we have a replacement incase Hecht goes down maybe a Matt Cullen Type Center?
-Bring Up(Promote) Zack Kassian to the National Hockey League(NHL) to provide some Size and Grit in the Bottom Six that also can be a threat scoring with that skill he possesses on the Grind Line playing opposite of Kaleta

Thoughts on Dealing for Jordan Staal? Would Pittsburgh do this Deal(Overpayment/Underpayment)?
I think we give up too much. Also, Gaustad wouldn't make sense going to Pittsburgh in the deal because Pittsburgh wouldn't want to take on a player of Gaustad's salary to fill a bottom six role with all the money they have tied up in Crosby and Malkin (this would be the reason why they'd want to move Staal in the first place). Stafford, Butler/Sekera, and our 1st round pick is what I'd offer, and I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be enough to get Staal, so it's not really worth talking about IMO.

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05-31-2010, 11:04 PM
  #18
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It would take Gaustad and a top 6 winger to get Staal I think. Gaustad would be a great replacement for Staal as the 3rd C and we would be making the trade to get Crosby and Malkin a good winger, I don't think the Pens would be interested in any defenseman Buffalo has to offer (they wouldn't give up Meyers) other than maybe Sekera or Rivet, but Rivet is getting up there in years and if we are giving up a long term player, I would hope to expect one in return. Pittsburgh already has a plethera of PMD signed, and should be looking for some shut down guys.

I see Staal as a 2nd C, I think his point totals will go up when/if he starts getting PP Time. I believe 3/4 of the way through the season he was top 30 or so in ES Points in the league. (could be wrong though)

having said all that, the Pens likely aren't trading Staal, and they shouldn't unless its a steal for us.

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06-01-2010, 02:18 AM
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Westguy13
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All this talk of point totals inflated as a third line center is pretty funny. When Derek Roy was our 3rd line center he was also playing on the PP regularly and spent over half of his ice time with Afino and Vanek(06-07) while Briere and Drury were with wingers like Hecht, Gaustad, Pominville, Kotalik, Grier and even Cmac for stints. During that time his totals were still less impressive at even strength then Staals at several years older with far less adequate line mates.

BTW Jon Toews at Staals age had 22 goals and 25 assists at even strength playing on Chi's top line. Staal this season had 20 goals and 23 assists at ES on Pitt's 3rd line facing teams top lines quite often in a shutdown role.

I would love to see Staal as Buffalo's #1 center and I'd be very suprised if he didn't produce on a line with Vanek and Ennis not to mention he would fill in nicly as a #1 PKer and would be a pain in front of the goalie on the PP. I'd be afraid to see the price tag on him though.

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06-01-2010, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westguy13 View Post
All this talk of point totals inflated as a third line center is pretty funny. When Derek Roy was our 3rd line center he was also playing on the PP regularly and spent over half of his ice time with Afino and Vanek(06-07) while Briere and Drury were with wingers like Hecht, Gaustad, Pominville, Kotalik, Grier and even Cmac for stints. During that time his totals were still less impressive at even strength then Staals at several years older with far less adequate line mates.

BTW Jon Toews at Staals age had 22 goals and 25 assists at even strength playing on Chi's top line. Staal this season had 20 goals and 23 assists at ES on Pitt's 3rd line facing teams top lines quite often in a shutdown role.

I would love to see Staal as Buffalo's #1 center and I'd be very suprised if he didn't produce on a line with Vanek and Ennis not to mention he would fill in nicly as a #1 PKer and would be a pain in front of the goalie on the PP. I'd be afraid to see the price tag on him though.
I don't know where you're getting your stats...Vanek had 62 ES points playing behind Briere in 06-07, Roy had 47 (in 75 games), and Afinogenov had 41 in 56 games.

Staal this year had 41 in 82 games playing ~14 minutes of ES time a game. (Compared to Buf's 2nd line of Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov getting about 13).

So, in summary, Roy's ES numbers in 06-07 - hiding behind Briere - were in fact significantly better than Staal's.....as were his numbers in 07-08 even after Briere left. And no one here considers Roy a #1 center.

And if you want evidence for a player's numbers dropping significantly at even strength after losing the protection of a true #1 guy, look at Vanek. He went from 62 ES points in 82 games (about .75/game) to 40 in 82 in 07/08 (about .5/game) and has maintained that .5/game pace ever since.

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06-01-2010, 04:03 AM
  #21
Westguy13
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You're making my exact point. You're compairing point totals without compairing supporting cast. Vanek, Roy and Afino are all guys with multiple 60+ point seasons. Staal has 0 offensive supporting cast. He sits at 4th among his teams forwards in points. Only one winger on Pittsburgh had more points then Staal this year and that was Poni who wasn't even on the team most of the year meaning Staal was pittsburghs #3 in points and goals this season. (btw he had 5 more ES goals then Malkin)

Edit: also I'm not denying that the loss of a true #1 can hurt a players production I don't belive I made a statement like that in my post either. I'm saying that you are saying heres the #s ignoring the surrounding environment they were created in via the players role on the team, PP time, surrounding cast. Not to mention outright player development. To say a kid thats scored 20 ES goals in 3 of his first four seasons, stuck on the 3rd line with 0 supporting cast hasn't show offensive potential is dumbfounding.

As for the stats you're questioning. Roy had 15 ES goals and 34 ES assists in 06-07 and 13 ES goals and 18 ES assists in 05-06 compaired to Staals last two seasons of 20 ESG 24 ESA and 20 ESG 23 ESA.

My real point is do you think if Roy would have been on a line with Mair and Gaustad with no PP time and playing in a shutdown role he'd have seen any kind of production boost from having Briere and Drury ahead of him?


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06-01-2010, 07:35 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westguy13 View Post
You're making my exact point. You're compairing point totals without compairing supporting cast. Vanek, Roy and Afino are all guys with multiple 60+ point seasons. Staal has 0 offensive supporting cast. He sits at 4th among his teams forwards in points. Only one winger on Pittsburgh had more points then Staal this year and that was Poni who wasn't even on the team most of the year meaning Staal was pittsburghs #3 in points and goals this season. (btw he had 5 more ES goals then Malkin)

Edit: also I'm not denying that the loss of a true #1 can hurt a players production I don't belive I made a statement like that in my post either. I'm saying that you are saying heres the #s ignoring the surrounding environment they were created in via the players role on the team, PP time, surrounding cast. Not to mention outright player development. To say a kid thats scored 20 ES goals in 3 of his first four seasons, stuck on the 3rd line with 0 supporting cast hasn't show offensive potential is dumbfounding.

As for the stats you're questioning. Roy had 15 ES goals and 34 ES assists in 06-07 and 13 ES goals and 18 ES assists in 05-06 compaired to Staals last two seasons of 20 ESG 24 ESA and 20 ESG 23 ESA.

My real point is do you think if Roy would have been on a line with Mair and Gaustad with no PP time and playing in a shutdown role he'd have seen any kind of production boost from having Briere and Drury ahead of him?
I don't know how the goals and assists break down, but according to nhl.com, Staal had 39 ES points in 08/09 and 41 in 09/10. And he absolutely does get PP time on the 2nd unit, as both Crosby and Malkin play on the top unit.

As for using Roy's 05-06 stats, you realize that he started that season in Rochester, right? And that he played a lot of 4th line time (before Briere got hurt, in particular)? I mean if you want to use his rookie year, can I use Staal's whopping 28 point season (not even strength, total points) from 07-08?

The question isn't whether Roy can produce with 4th line wingers (as a playmaker, he probably couldn't) - the question is can Staal produce as a #1 center, facing #1 defensive pairings night in and night out where his job is to score....at a greater rate than he ever has in his career, which is where the debate started. I even posted earlier that it's possible that he could become one, but the fact is he is not one right now....and for the package the OP outlined, we'd need to be getting an ESTABLISHED #1.

I would love to trade for him to play on the #3 line for the kind of package StaalForOne outlined (Pominville + Gaustad or Stafford + Gaustad) but I doubt the Pens would be interested in the first one due to actually taking back more salary than they'd be losing and the 2nd one because, well, Stafford hasn't shown anything.


Another thing this talk of linemates disregards completely is chemistry. Briere played with Hecht, not because it spread out the scoring, but because - despite Hecht being less talented than Vanek, Roy, Afinogenov, etc - he did the dirty work for the line and kept posession and was a good (and smart) passer. Who's to say Stall hasn't been moved to the #2 line (either with Malkin as his winger or with Crosby/Malkin on the top line, as Malkin certainly has played LW in the past) because he simply does not have chemistry with higher skilled guys? Perhaps his game is best suited for a crunching 3rd/4th energy or forechecking line?

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06-01-2010, 07:48 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Westguy13 View Post
You're making my exact point. You're compairing point totals without compairing supporting cast. Vanek, Roy and Afino are all guys with multiple 60+ point seasons. Staal has 0 offensive supporting cast. He sits at 4th among his teams forwards in points. Only one winger on Pittsburgh had more points then Staal this year and that was Poni who wasn't even on the team most of the year meaning Staal was pittsburghs #3 in points and goals this season. (btw he had 5 more ES goals then Malkin)

Edit: also I'm not denying that the loss of a true #1 can hurt a players production I don't belive I made a statement like that in my post either. I'm saying that you are saying heres the #s ignoring the surrounding environment they were created in via the players role on the team, PP time, surrounding cast. Not to mention outright player development. To say a kid thats scored 20 ES goals in 3 of his first four seasons, stuck on the 3rd line with 0 supporting cast hasn't show offensive potential is dumbfounding.

As for the stats you're questioning. Roy had 15 ES goals and 34 ES assists in 06-07 and 13 ES goals and 18 ES assists in 05-06 compaired to Staals last two seasons of 20 ESG 24 ESA and 20 ESG 23 ESA.

My real point is do you think if Roy would have been on a line with Mair and Gaustad with no PP time and playing in a shutdown role he'd have seen any kind of production boost from having Briere and Drury ahead of him?
Jordan Staal hasn't once scored 20 even strength goals in a season. I think you're forgetting to take out short handed points.

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06-01-2010, 09:19 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I don't know how the goals and assists break down, but according to nhl.com, Staal had 39 ES points in 08/09 and 41 in 09/10. And he absolutely does get PP time on the 2nd unit, as both Crosby and Malkin play on the top unit.

False, he gets little no no powerplay time. The top unit stays out there for 1:30 + every time were on the PP. So all Jordan gets for PP time is scraps.

As for using Roy's 05-06 stats, you realize that he started that season in Rochester, right? And that he played a lot of 4th line time (before Briere got hurt, in particular)? I mean if you want to use his rookie year, can I use Staal's whopping 28 point season (not even strength, total points) from 07-08?

18 years old, where was Roy at that age?

The question isn't whether Roy can produce with 4th line wingers (as a playmaker, he probably couldn't) - the question is can Staal produce as a #1 center, facing #1 defensive pairings night in and night out where his job is to score....at a greater rate than he ever has in his career, which is where the debate started. I even posted earlier that it's possible that he could become one, but the fact is he is not one right now....and for the package the OP outlined, we'd need to be getting an ESTABLISHED #1.

That has yet to be seen, as you mentioned.

I would love to trade for him to play on the #3 line for the kind of package StaalForOne outlined (Pominville + Gaustad or Stafford + Gaustad) but I doubt the Pens would be interested in the first one due to actually taking back more salary than they'd be losing and the 2nd one because, well, Stafford hasn't shown anything.


Another thing this talk of linemates disregards completely is chemistry. Briere played with Hecht, not because it spread out the scoring, but because - despite Hecht being less talented than Vanek, Roy, Afinogenov, etc - he did the dirty work for the line and kept posession and was a good (and smart) passer. Who's to say Stall hasn't been moved to the #2 line (either with Malkin as his winger or with Crosby/Malkin on the top line, as Malkin certainly has played LW in the past) because he simply does not have chemistry with higher skilled guys? Perhaps his game is best suited for a crunching 3rd/4th energy or forechecking line?
bolded.
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Jordan Staal hasn't once scored 20 even strength goals in a season. I think you're forgetting to take out short handed points.
I would say that only strengthens the case for Staal.

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06-01-2010, 09:22 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westguy13 View Post
You're making my exact point. You're compairing point totals without compairing supporting cast. Vanek, Roy and Afino are all guys with multiple 60+ point seasons. Staal has 0 offensive supporting cast. He sits at 4th among his teams forwards in points. Only one winger on Pittsburgh had more points then Staal this year and that was Poni who wasn't even on the team most of the year meaning Staal was pittsburghs #3 in points and goals this season. (btw he had 5 more ES goals then Malkin)

Edit: also I'm not denying that the loss of a true #1 can hurt a players production I don't belive I made a statement like that in my post either. I'm saying that you are saying heres the #s ignoring the surrounding environment they were created in via the players role on the team, PP time, surrounding cast. Not to mention outright player development. To say a kid thats scored 20 ES goals in 3 of his first four seasons, stuck on the 3rd line with 0 supporting cast hasn't show offensive potential is dumbfounding.

As for the stats you're questioning. Roy had 15 ES goals and 34 ES assists in 06-07 and 13 ES goals and 18 ES assists in 05-06 compaired to Staals last two seasons of 20 ESG 24 ESA and 20 ESG 23 ESA.

My real point is do you think if Roy would have been on a line with Mair and Gaustad with no PP time and playing in a shutdown role he'd have seen any kind of production boost from having Briere and Drury ahead of him?
That is true, but you have to consider two things. Malkin had a pretty poor year by his standards, partially due to injury. Malkin does score a lot of PP goals though, when Malkin was struggling throughout the year, so was the PP.

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