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Old
06-01-2010, 09:24 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by StaalForOne View Post
bolded.


I would say that only strengthens the case for Staal.
Yup. The inability to tally up 20 ES goals in one season definitely makes me cool with trading Tim Kennedy, Drew Stafford, Paul Gaustad, Chris Butler, Sekera, a top 4 defenseman, a 4th round pick, and while we're at it, a 1st.

That trade is utterly ridiculous and Staal has not lived up with that. You don't get that return for a player who speculatively might be a serviceable first line center.

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06-01-2010, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StaalForOne View Post
bolded.


I would say that only strengthens the case for Staal.
The discussion is about whether he is a #1 center. SH points are irrelevant to that topic. My entire point is that he is not an established #1 center, and not a guarentee to become one, so he is not worth trading the package outlined in the OP.

As for PP time, yes, obviously in Pittsburgh the #1 unit gets the lion's share of the time. Staal gets about 40% of what the first unit get. But he is on the 2nd unit. He plays about 2 minutes a game, which isn't drastically different from other team's 2nd units. It's only a minute less than Roy gets here as a "1b" center (in terms of role, not neccessarily ability)....which makes his 6 PP points stick out like a sore thumb. Fedetenko had more points on the PP than Staal did in less ice time. Roy had quadruple the points in less than twice the ice time.

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06-01-2010, 09:48 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
The discussion is about whether he is a #1 center. SH points are irrelevant to that topic. My entire point is that he is not an established #1 center, and not a guarentee to become one, so he is not worth trading the package outlined in the OP.

As for PP time, yes, obviously in Pittsburgh the #1 unit gets the lion's share of the time. Staal gets about 40% of what the first unit get. But he is on the 2nd unit. He plays about 2 minutes a game, which isn't drastically different from other team's 2nd units. It's only a minute less than Roy gets here as a "1b" center (in terms of role, not neccessarily ability)....which makes his 6 PP points stick out like a sore thumb. Fedetenko had more points on the PP than Staal did in less ice time. Roy had quadruple the points in less than twice the ice time.
Staal is definitely a "projection" type guy.

While I wouldn't bank on him being a pure #1 guy ala Crosby & Malkin, I think he could very well be a 1a-1b guy that would add tremendous depth to the Sabres.

Like the TC-Roy-S. Koivu talk, I would feel great about adding Staal to Roy & Connolly.

Although, I would be surprised if the Pens mess with what they have going on up the middle regardless of all the rumors.

The one way I could see them moving a center is if they feel that they need to address their D depth, especially if Gonchar walks.

And the only guy that Pittsburgh would want off the Sabres for that role is an untouchable.

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06-01-2010, 10:05 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
The discussion is about whether he is a #1 center. SH points are irrelevant to that topic. My entire point is that he is not an established #1 center, and not a guarentee to become one, so he is not worth trading the package outlined in the OP.

As for PP time, yes, obviously in Pittsburgh the #1 unit gets the lion's share of the time. Staal gets about 40% of what the first unit get. But he is on the 2nd unit. He plays about 2 minutes a game, which isn't drastically different from other team's 2nd units. It's only a minute less than Roy gets here as a "1b" center (in terms of role, not neccessarily ability)....which makes his 6 PP points stick out like a sore thumb. Fedetenko had more points on the PP than Staal did in less ice time. Roy had quadruple the points in less than twice the ice time.
Again fan made fantasy deals are more often than not preposterous and irrelevant. I will say it again, given the linemates that any of the big 3 centerman on the Pens have, and the fact he is on the third line, his background, and watching him play, I have reason to believe he can become a No. 1 centerman in the right situation. Having said that, I know that's not in Pittsburgh and sure as heck is not in Buffalo right now.

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06-01-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Staal is definitely a "projection" type guy.

While I wouldn't bank on him being a pure #1 guy ala Crosby & Malkin, I think he could very well be a 1a-1b guy that would add tremendous depth to the Sabres.

Like the TC-Roy-S. Koivu talk, I would feel great about adding Staal to Roy & Connolly.

Although, I would be surprised if the Pens mess with what they have going on up the middle regardless of all the rumors.

The one way I could see them moving a center is if they feel that they need to address their D depth, especially if Gonchar walks.

And the only guy that Pittsburgh would want off the Sabres for that role is an untouchable.
I would love to add Staal for a non-exhorbitant price. He plays the role for Pittsburgh that Drury did for Buffalo during the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons (minus the pp scoring). But again to the point of scoring not neccessarily translating - Drury is a guy who's put up good (and even great) scoring seasons but absolutely failed everywhere he's counted on to be the #1 center, first in Calgary, then here in the first half of 03-04 before Hecht/Briere/Dumont wrested away the top line slot....and again in New York where he was signed to be at the least a 1a/1b type.

If we're trading for Staal to be our shut down center who pops in 20-25 goals a year, great. But it's a pretty large risk to say, get rid of Connolly or Roy and count on Staal to be your #1 center.

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06-01-2010, 10:14 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
I have reason to believe he can become a No. 1 centerman in the right situation. Having said that, I know that's not in Pittsburgh and sure as heck is not in Buffalo right now.
Possibly, sure.

Not enough to warrant what Buffalo gives in that trade, though... by a longshot.

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06-01-2010, 10:35 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I would love to add Staal for a non-exhorbitant price. He plays the role for Pittsburgh that Drury did for Buffalo during the 05-06 and 06-07 seasons (minus the pp scoring). But again to the point of scoring not neccessarily translating - Drury is a guy who's put up good (and even great) scoring seasons but absolutely failed everywhere he's counted on to be the #1 center, first in Calgary, then here in the first half of 03-04 before Hecht/Briere/Dumont wrested away the top line slot....and again in New York where he was signed to be at the least a 1a/1b type.

If we're trading for Staal to be our shut down center who pops in 20-25 goals a year, great. But it's a pretty large risk to say, get rid of Connolly or Roy and count on Staal to be your #1 center.
The difference is Chris Drury wasn't a 2nd overall pick. He doesn't possess the skillset that Jordan Staal has. Lets also remember he came into the NHL 4 years older than Staal did. In fact he was about the same age during his rookie year that Staal is now. So it's not the best comparison.

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06-01-2010, 10:36 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
The difference is Drury wasn't a 2nd overall pick, and doesn't have the skillset that Staal has, and remember he came into the NHL 4 years older than Staal did. In fact he was about the same age during his rookie year than Staal is now. So not the best comparison.
I'm not interested in evaluating a player by draft position.

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06-01-2010, 10:43 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clock View Post
Yup. The inability to tally up 20 ES goals in one season definitely makes me cool with trading Tim Kennedy, Drew Stafford, Paul Gaustad, Chris Butler, Sekera, a top 4 defenseman, a 4th round pick, and while we're at it, a 1st.

That trade is utterly ridiculous and Staal has not lived up with that. You don't get that return for a player who speculatively might be a serviceable first line center.
I never said I agreed with the OP's offer, its obviously ridiculous like 98% of all the offers that get thrown around on these boards. However you do have to consider that the only way Shero would get rid of Staal is if he knew we were absolutely winning the deal, hes not in a situation where he needs to be dealt. He is signed for, I believe, 3 more years off the top of my head and neither Staal nor the Penguins organization has made any sort if hint that either is not happy with the other. He staying unless there is a drastic overpayment offered, which would be dumb of any other team. Staal is staying put.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
The discussion is about whether he is a #1 center. SH points are irrelevant to that topic. My entire point is that he is not an established #1 center, and not a guarentee to become one, so he is not worth trading the package outlined in the OP.

As for PP time, yes, obviously in Pittsburgh the #1 unit gets the lion's share of the time. Staal gets about 40% of what the first unit get. But he is on the 2nd unit. He plays about 2 minutes a game, which isn't drastically different from other team's 2nd units. It's only a minute less than Roy gets here as a "1b" center (in terms of role, not neccessarily ability)....which makes his 6 PP points stick out like a sore thumb. Fedetenko had more points on the PP than Staal did in less ice time. Roy had quadruple the points in less than twice the ice time.
That is true hes not established, nor is he guaranteed to become a no. 1 C . The SH goals are just bonus, obviously it doesn't reflect on his ES points, but it says a lot for his value to any team.

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06-01-2010, 10:50 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I'm not interested in evaluating a player by draft position.
I'm not, but there is a reason why guys are taken high, because they are a cut above the rest in their draft class. I also know it can be a crapshoot as well.. one only has to look at the Lawtons, Wickenheisers, Mann's of the past. But my focus wasn't on the draft so don't go there. I threw it in as one itty bitty thing to fuel my argument... if it were the focus of my argument then sure you can use it against me.

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06-01-2010, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
I'm not, but there is a reason why guys are taken high, because they are a cut above the rest in their draft class. I also know it can be a crapshoot as well.. one only has to look at the Lawtons, Wickenheisers, Mann's of the past. But my focus wasn't on the draft so don't go there. I threw it in as one itty bitty thing to fuel my argument... if it were the focus of my argument then sure you can use it against me.
Drury also scored 44 points as a 22 year old, which is not too far off from where Staal is now, so the better skill set seems to just be conjecture and opinion as of now - and Staal has had 3 years of additional professional seasoning. It's not like Drury is (well, was) a bad player. He's been extremely successful - when not counted on to be a team's primary scoring threat.

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06-01-2010, 11:10 AM
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Sabres fans are weird about Staal... i never quite understood why they passionately argue the "he's never done this or that" angle...

I would trade any of our forwards for Staal.

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06-01-2010, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Drury also scored 44 points as a 22 year old, which is not too far off from where Staal is now, so the better skill set seems to just be conjecture and opinion as of now - and Staal has had 3 years of additional professional seasoning. It's not like Drury is (well, was) a bad player. He's been extremely successful - when not counted on to be a team's primary scoring threat.
It is when you consider the fact Staal had 5 more points on the third line and did it as a 21-year-old... a year younger... oh yeah! Not certain, because that was 1998-99? Either way, did he play in a top six role because again we're comparing apples to oranges here... what do you expect from a guy who scores virtually 50 points in a bottom six position? Again, not the best comparison. At the end of the day I have a feeling that J. Staal's ceiling will far exceed Drury's, if and only if, he gets out of his current situation. It's stunting his growth as a player.

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06-01-2010, 11:29 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Sabres fans are weird about Staal... i never quite understood why they passionately argue the "he's never done this or that" angle...

I would trade any of our forwards for Staal.
Given his upside and low salary/cap hit, Ennis would be the only Sabres forward that I would swallow hard if he were dealt for Staal.

And Myers & Miller are the only two other players that I'd question moving for Staal.

I'm not 100% sure that Staal could grow into a big time #1 center. But, he would be a HUGE asset to any club that could get their paws on him.

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06-01-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PensFan6687 View Post
It is when you consider the fact Staal had 5 more points on the third line and did it as a 21-year-old... a year younger... oh yeah! Not certain, because that was 1998-99? Either way, did he play in a top six role because again we're comparing apples to oranges here... what do you expect from a guy who scores virtually 50 points in a bottom six position? Again, not the best comparison. At the end of the day I have a feeling that J. Staal's ceiling will far exceed Drury's, if and only if, he gets out of his current situation. It's stunting his growth as a player.
You keep calling him a 3rd liner, and in the loosest sense, he is the #3 center on the depth chart, but did you know that Staal had more ES ice time than any Pittsburgh winger? It's not like he was hurting for ice time. Maybe he played with the guys he did because that's who he had chemistry with? Someone on here has already mentioned how Staal flopped when flipped to winger to play in the top 6.

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06-01-2010, 12:20 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
You keep calling him a 3rd liner, and in the loosest sense, he is the #3 center on the depth chart, but did you know that Staal had more ES ice time than any Pittsburgh winger? It's not like he was hurting for ice time. Maybe he played with the guys he did because that's who he had chemistry with? Someone on here has already mentioned how Staal flopped when flipped to winger to play in the top 6.
Staal has looked really well imo in his limited time with Malkin, the two I think have pretty good chemistry, but they both look more comfortable at C, which is why I think they don't get more time together. He plays with the guys he does partially because of chemistry, and partially because him and Malkin are not all they can be on the wing. And FWIW, that 3rd line is arguably the best in the league.

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Sabres fans are weird about Staal... i never quite understood why they passionately argue the "he's never done this or that" angle...

I would trade any of our forwards for Staal.
Its not just Sabres fans. He is the most over and underrated player in the league. Just depends who you ask.

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06-01-2010, 12:31 PM
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So if the option was there would you not take the opportunity to draft Tyler Seguin just because he isn't a proven #1? With just about any player in the NHL outside of the established top players you are taking some kind of risk that they wont produce with your squad. Chris Drury, Olli Jokinen, Scott Gomez, Martin Havlat, Jason Blake, All guys who at one point were expected to be 30+ Goal 70+ point guys when they changed teams. To say we shouldn't trade for a very young obviously talented player who fits a need because they haven't played regular minutes as a top line center is something I just can't agree with. I'm not saying I'd throw everything we have at Staal but I'd very easily throw a first, Poms, Stafford for him. Hell maybe even throw Butler or Sekera in the deal. Not to mention Powerforwards generally take longer to develop and we definantly need a guy of his size and ability in the top 6.

Vanek for Staal!


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06-01-2010, 12:41 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by StaalForOne View Post
Its not just Sabres fans. He is the most over and underrated player in the league. Just depends who you ask.
I think he's just really really good for his age to role/responsibility. And the ceiling is as high on him as it is on ANY under 23 yr old center in the league.

I guess that means i overrate him

I know most Pens fans feel he is untouchable. I don't think that's really the case, as he is their most valuable/tradeable piece while keeping the 2 of the top 5 centers in the game together. The Pens have holes all along the wings, and they need to fill in some spots on the blue line.

If Pitt decided they were going to trade Staal, what would it cost from Buffalo? (excluding Myers... sorry).

The Sabres have a lot of wingers, and a good bunch of young defensemen at the NHL and AHL level.

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06-01-2010, 12:43 PM
  #44
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So if the option was there would you not take the opportunity to draft Tyler Seguin just because he isn't a proven #1? With just about any player in the NHL outside of the established top players you are taking some kind of risk that they wont produce with your squad. Chris Drury, Olli Jokinen, Scott Gomez, Martin Havlat, Jason Blake, All guys who at one point were expected to be 30+ Goal 70+ point guys when they changed teams. To say we shouldn't trade for a very young obviously talented player who fits a need because they haven't played regular minutes as a top line center is something I just can't agree with. I'm not saying I'd throw everything we have at Staal but I'd very easily throw a first, Poms, Stafford for him. Hell maybe even throw Butler or Sekera in the deal. Not to mention Powerforwards generally take longer to develop and we definantly need a guy of his size and ability in the top 6.

Vanek for Staal!
I would... anything and everything outside Myers.

Keep in mind, Pitt probably doesnt want to take on salary, unless they are filling MULTIPLE holes. So Vanek for Staal doesnt make much sense.

Pominville, Gerbe, Butler, Sekera, 1st 2010, 1st 2011
for
Stall, Goligoski

Pitt gets:
- 1st line winger for Crosby (80 pt, 2 way, all situations 1st liner)
- Previous AHL rookie of the year who is NHL ready, would fit nicely on a SIZE line with Malkin.
- 2 NHL defensemen making 1 mil or less with 2+ years NHL experience
- 2 first rounders

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06-01-2010, 12:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I would... anything and everything outside Myers.

Keep in mind, Pitt probably doesnt want to take on salary, unless they are filling MULTIPLE holes. So Vanek for Staal doesnt make much sense.

Pominville, Gerbe, Butler, Sekera, 1st 2010, 1st 2011
for
Stall, Goligoski

Pitt gets:
- 1st line winger for Crosby (80 pt, 2 way, all situations 1st liner)
- Previous AHL rookie of the year who is NHL ready, would fit nicely on a SIZE line with Malkin.
- 2 NHL defensemen making 1 mil or less with 2+ years NHL experience
- 2 first rounders
I can't see Pittsburgh moving Staal or Goligoski this offseason.

And I really can't see them moving both of them for that package.

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06-01-2010, 01:29 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Westguy13 View Post
So if the option was there would you not take the opportunity to draft Tyler Seguin just because he isn't a proven #1? With just about any player in the NHL outside of the established top players you are taking some kind of risk that they wont produce with your squad. Chris Drury, Olli Jokinen, Scott Gomez, Martin Havlat, Jason Blake, All guys who at one point were expected to be 30+ Goal 70+ point guys when they changed teams. To say we shouldn't trade for a very young obviously talented player who fits a need because they haven't played regular minutes as a top line center is something I just can't agree with. I'm not saying I'd throw everything we have at Staal but I'd very easily throw a first, Poms, Stafford for him. Hell maybe even throw Butler or Sekera in the deal. Not to mention Powerforwards generally take longer to develop and we definantly need a guy of his size and ability in the top 6.

Vanek for Staal!
I would love to have either of Vanek or Pominville, they are both right handed scoring wingers which we desperately lack. Problem is they both make more than Staal. Pominville is closest in salary and he makes 1.5 mil more. So Stafford would probably be the most likely candidate, but I sure as hell would not move Staal for Stafford, unless there is a very good pick and at least one more good player involved.

About the power forwards thing, Staal this past year I believe is just now realizing how big he is, hes become more dominant in the corners and uses his reach very well. Shooting and finishing is something ide like to see him work on though.


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I can't see Pittsburgh moving Staal or Goligoski this offseason.

And I really can't see them moving both of them for that package.
Gogo is tradable, he had a poor second half after a really good first half...until he got injured. However we seem to have an unlimited supply of PMD in our system, so he is available for the right offer.

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06-01-2010, 02:07 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Sabres fans are weird about Staal... i never quite understood why they passionately argue the "he's never done this or that" angle...

I would trade any of our forwards for Staal.
For the OP's return package?

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06-01-2010, 02:17 PM
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holy crap, that original post looks like a Hershel Walker trade.

don't get me wrong, I think Jorden Stall is worth a couple late first rounders and a bonafide prospect. He's not worth half the team and a first rounder. Jordan is no Gretzky.

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06-01-2010, 02:37 PM
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For the OP's return package?
The fact is... most of the assets being traded are relatively meaningless in the big picture. They are filler, role players, depth... albeit with potential to be a bit more...would we miss Goose... sure, but we'd have filled a massive team need while trading away secondary pieces... and the Sabres actually cut some cap space in the deal

I would do just about anything for a potential 1st line center. I think Staal is that type of player. I guess I'm in the "overrate him" crowd. I think Staal is close to the total package. I don't think he'll be a dominant offensive #1, but i think he'll be an excellent all around #1.

I think he's comparable to Toews. I think Staal is just scratching the surface of his skill level. He's freaking 21 with 60 playoff games and a cup. He handles huge responsibilities, he's already one of the best 2 way centers in the game... did i mention he's 21? and locked into a long term cap friendly deal?

All the stuff in the original post is pretty easy to replace (other then Goose... who although incredibly valuable to the Sabres, is not someone who is irreplaceable)

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06-01-2010, 02:58 PM
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http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=782212

interesting thread on the pens board, involving or winger situation.

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