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Old
06-18-2010, 09:01 AM
  #351
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Marleau >>>>> Kovy on THIS team.

Give me Marleau each and every day. Kovy's function = Heatley's. The only way I'd take Kovy would be if we didn't have Heatley. And when Heatley is signed at an average of about 6.2 mil a season in real salary (I know his cap hit is 7.?), and Kovy's salary most likely 7-9 mil a season, combined with the Sharks and their traditionally (not the past couple years) conservative spending habits when it comes to the team, gives you absolutely no chance of Kovy coming here.

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06-18-2010, 10:03 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And for all the supposed passion that Kovalchuk has, it's gotten him a whole one win in the post-season. He's a team killer at this point in his career. I'd rather have guys that know and do what it takes to help the team win than a guy who simply doesn't. If the Kings do end up signing Kovalchuk, it'll be one of the biggest mistakes they will ever make.
In no way am I suggesting going after Kovalchuk. I prefer Marleau and his caterpillar eyebrows. I was venturing a guess at some people's interest him, excluding pure skill.

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06-18-2010, 10:33 AM
  #353
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There is some massive homerism going on for our beloved face of the franchise

Marleau's defensive prowess is being put on a god-like pedastal and Kovie's defensive game is being stretched in the extreme opposite direction.

Do I think changing the dynamic of this team is a bad thing? Not, not so much.. every year is a heartbreaking groundhog's day. How did Marleau "Prove the naysayers wrong?" as he stated at last year's SOTS? He did so by coming alive in the third round but being invisible through the first round and a half?

All but one of his goals were by being in the right place at the right time in the Chicago series. I am not saying that is a terrible thing because he still has to execute, and more often than not he puts the puck where it needs to be, but he does not control the game or take over a game if need be. He is not a superstar. He is the most elite support player you can get.

The only real consideration I would make if I were GM is if I could replace him with anything better given what will be available as a FA or via trade. The answer is looking like a probably not. Again, though, changing the dynamic of this team may be long overdue.

Sure, we made it to the WCF, but the team still did not get just what kind of sacrifice and dedication it takes to win a cup. I can buy that Marleau is a better leader than I think he is. I also think getting the blood pumping and showing some emotion may be necessary to maintain the highest level of play for 4 rounds and keep that sense of urgency all along the way.

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06-18-2010, 11:06 AM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
Marleau's defensive prowess is being put on a god-like pedastal and Kovie's defensive game is being stretched in the extreme opposite direction.
Marleau:
Regular Season:
82GP 44G 39A 83p +21

Playoffs:
14gp 8g 5a 13p -3

Thornton:
Regular Season:
79gp 20g 69a 89p +17

Playoffs:
15gp 3g 9a 12p -11

Heatley:
Regular Season:
82gp 39g 43a 82p +14

Playoffs:
14gp 2g 11a 13p -7


This line was -21 in the playoffs, but only scored 13g. Do you really think reducing their defensive responsibility makes any sense?

Kovalchuk is a career -75 in the regular season

Marleau is a career +22 career regular season

That's a differential of 97.

So yes, there is a massive gap between their defensive abilities. Marleau is excellent defensively, Kovalchuk is total crap. That's not even hyperbole.

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06-18-2010, 11:13 AM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Marleau:
Regular Season:
82GP 44G 39A 83p +21

Playoffs:
14gp 8g 5a 13p -3

Thornton:
Regular Season:
79gp 20g 69a 89p +17

Playoffs:
15gp 3g 9a 12p -11

Heatley:
Regular Season:
82gp 39g 43a 82p +14

Playoffs:
14gp 2g 11a 13p -7


This line was -21 in the playoffs, but only scored 13g. Do you really think reducing their defensive responsibility makes any sense?

Kovalchuk is a career -75 in the regular season

Marleau is a career +22 career regular season

That's a differential of 97.

So yes, there is a massive gap between their defensive abilities. Marleau is excellent defensively, Kovalchuk is total crap. That's not even hyperbole.
I want Marleau over Kovalchuk too, but it is pretty unfair to compare a career Shark and career Thrasher.

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06-18-2010, 11:13 AM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
There is some massive homerism going on for our beloved face of the franchise

Marleau's defensive prowess is being put on a god-like pedestal and Kovie's defensive game is being stretched in the extreme opposite direction.

Do I think changing the dynamic of this team is a bad thing? Not, not so much.. every year is a heartbreaking groundhog's day. How did Marleau "Prove the naysayers wrong?" as he stated at last year's SOTS? He did so by coming alive in the third round but being invisible through the first round and a half?

All but one of his goals were by being in the right place at the right time in the Chicago series. I am not saying that is a terrible thing because he still has to execute, and more often than not he puts the puck where it needs to be, but he does not control the game or take over a game if need be. He is not a superstar. He is the most elite support player you can get.

The only real consideration I would make if I were GM is if I could replace him with anything better given what will be available as a FA or via trade. The answer is looking like a probably not. Again, though, changing the dynamic of this team may be long overdue.

Sure, we made it to the WCF, but the team still did not get just what kind of sacrifice and dedication it takes to win a cup. I can buy that Marleau is a better leader than I think he is. I also think getting the blood pumping and showing some emotion may be necessary to maintain the highest level of play for 4 rounds and keep that sense of urgency all along the way.
Agree with your POV. Largely a balanced one. WRT Marleau this year in the P/O's most of his goals were of the too little too late variety even when he did start to score but I think he was hurt too. We have not yet heard who was dealing with what outside of Heatley afaik. But Marleau never cut loose with his speed through the entire series but gradually got better skating each game, which made me believe he was doing the best he could. Some I dump back on TMac for leaving Heatley on the top line and skating him 23 minutes in at least one of the games. That makes it more difficult for Marleau when Heatley can use his better than average speed or his size down low.

But to the point, I agree. Its not going to hurt to have Marleau leave depending on what he is replaced with. Its all up to the agents and GM at this point though. If Patty wants to earn market, he won't be a Shark.

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06-18-2010, 11:18 AM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
There is some massive homerism going on for our beloved face of the franchise

Marleau's defensive prowess is being put on a god-like pedastal and Kovie's defensive game is being stretched in the extreme opposite direction.

Do I think changing the dynamic of this team is a bad thing? Not, not so much.. every year is a heartbreaking groundhog's day. How did Marleau "Prove the naysayers wrong?" as he stated at last year's SOTS? He did so by coming alive in the third round but being invisible through the first round and a half?

All but one of his goals were by being in the right place at the right time in the Chicago series. I am not saying that is a terrible thing because he still has to execute, and more often than not he puts the puck where it needs to be, but he does not control the game or take over a game if need be. He is not a superstar. He is the most elite support player you can get.

The only real consideration I would make if I were GM is if I could replace him with anything better
given what will be available as a FA or via trade. The answer is looking like a probably not. Again, though, changing the dynamic of this team may be long overdue.

Sure, we made it to the WCF, but the team still did not get just what kind of sacrifice and dedication it takes to win a cup. I can buy that Marleau is a better leader than I think he is. I also think getting the blood pumping and showing some emotion may be necessary to maintain the highest level of play for 4 rounds and keep that sense of urgency all along the way.
I think the right place in the right time argument is a weak one. Being in the right place in the right time takes skill and smarts to get there.

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Old
06-18-2010, 11:27 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
I want Marleau over Kovalchuk too, but it is pretty unfair to compare a career Shark and career Thrasher.
Sure, if they were close, but that's almost a 100 point differential.

Whatever the degree, I don't think anyone can make a logical argument that Kovalchuk is better defensively than Marleau. With that said, my point stands, do you really want to reduce the defensive responsibility of a line that was -21 in the playoffs?

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06-18-2010, 11:44 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Sure, if they were close, but that's almost a 100 point differential.

Whatever the degree, I don't think anyone can make a logical argument that Kovalchuk is better defensively than Marleau. With that said, my point stands, do you really want to reduce the defensive responsibility of a line that was -21 in the playoffs?
Not really. I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here, I mean, does anyone believe that Doug Wilson has any interest in bringing in a Russian? He's gradually eliminated almost all non North American skaters.

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06-18-2010, 12:08 PM
  #360
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Harding (for value- otherwise they will keep him)
Boucher (I think they want to keep Leighton, but also want to upgrade at starter)
JDD/Dubynk (both RFAs they will pick one, let the other become UFA, or stick em in the AHL)

Darkhorse:
Fleury- they were not happy with his performance, and their GM strikes me as having a triggerfinger when it comes to inconsistency (Malkin excluded IMO). The wise thing to do is keep Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Tangradi, Letang, Orpik and Fleury at any cost, and focus on building around them through the draft. Have a constant group of prospects and last-chance vets recycling through their ranks. When the additions work out- conference finals. When they don't- think of the higher draft picks as a positive.
I've read (from other Philly posters) that Holmgren might not be too sold on Leights after two yanks in the Finals. I think they talked about it some in the Nabokov to Philly thread in TR&FA

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06-18-2010, 12:26 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Esoteric Ubiquity View Post
I've read (from other Philly posters) that Holmgren might not be too sold on Leights after two yanks in the Finals. I think they talked about it some in the Nabokov to Philly thread in TR&FA
I wouldn't be sold on him either. He was exposed that series. It's not even his fault either... he's just not that good.

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06-18-2010, 12:54 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
There is some massive homerism going on for our beloved face of the franchise

Marleau's defensive prowess is being put on a god-like pedastal and Kovie's defensive game is being stretched in the extreme opposite direction.

Do I think changing the dynamic of this team is a bad thing? Not, not so much.. every year is a heartbreaking groundhog's day. How did Marleau "Prove the naysayers wrong?" as he stated at last year's SOTS? He did so by coming alive in the third round but being invisible through the first round and a half?

All but one of his goals were by being in the right place at the right time in the Chicago series. I am not saying that is a terrible thing because he still has to execute, and more often than not he puts the puck where it needs to be, but he does not control the game or take over a game if need be. He is not a superstar. He is the most elite support player you can get.

The only real consideration I would make if I were GM is if I could replace him with anything better given what will be available as a FA or via trade. The answer is looking like a probably not. Again, though, changing the dynamic of this team may be long overdue.

Sure, we made it to the WCF, but the team still did not get just what kind of sacrifice and dedication it takes to win a cup. I can buy that Marleau is a better leader than I think he is. I also think getting the blood pumping and showing some emotion may be necessary to maintain the highest level of play for 4 rounds and keep that sense of urgency all along the way.
Marleau was 9th in Selke voting last year and will be in the top 20 again for sure this year. Kovalchuk doesn't even get a homer vote. There is a vast difference in their defensive game and it's known league-wide. Even if you buy into the right-place, right-time as some major difference between taking over the game, how do you justify applying it to Kovalchuk? Kovalchuk didn't take over games. One end-to-end rush is not taking it over. Putting up points on the power play is not taking it over.

You're just as guilty in completely overshooting just what Ilya Kovalchuk brings to the table and what he's actually capable of. Goal-scorers in general are inconsistent especially in the post-season. What makes for winning hockey is when that player isn't scoring if he's being a liability out there or helping other score. Kovalchuk doesn't help others around him in a playmaking sense and is a defensive liability. Marleau is no playmaker either but is generally the 3rd man high with the big line since they're too slow to get back and helps kill penalties. These are things Kovalchuk will never do.

Winning in the playoffs is about doing the little things as much as it is about scoring and really Kovalchuk doesn't do enough of either. If this team is going to let Marleau go, that's fine but don't compound the fail by bringing Kovalchuk in. That will only further tie the organization down to large cap contracts and get us no closer to the Stanley Cup.

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06-18-2010, 01:02 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Marleau:
Regular Season:
82GP 44G 39A 83p +21

Playoffs:
14gp 8g 5a 13p -3

Thornton:
Regular Season:
79gp 20g 69a 89p +17

Playoffs:
15gp 3g 9a 12p -11

Heatley:
Regular Season:
82gp 39g 43a 82p +14

Playoffs:
14gp 2g 11a 13p -7


This line was -21 in the playoffs, but only scored 13g. Do you really think reducing their defensive responsibility makes any sense?

Kovalchuk is a career -75 in the regular season

Marleau is a career +22 career regular season

That's a differential of 97.

So yes, there is a massive gap between their defensive abilities. Marleau is excellent defensively, Kovalchuk is total crap. That's not even hyperbole.
I'm with you in no way to spend the heavy extra dollars to bring in Kova. over Patty...


Re-sing Patty to the lower dollars and re-inforce our D.

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06-18-2010, 07:52 PM
  #364
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Agree to disagree

I do agree that good players find a way to get to loose pucks and "be in the right place at the right time."

But sometimes it is just dumb luck. The problem is, we have a lot of guys that can't capitalize when they are awarded with a golden opportunity. Marleau is definitely an opportunist, and I would trust him pouncing on the puck in the high slot as much as any top sniper in the game to turn it into a great scoring chance. I feel like a good deal of his goals are a result of the hard work of someone else on the team though.

Mostly, I would just like to see Nabby and Patty gone and the dawn of a new era in San Jose. I would also like JT to shoot more!

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06-18-2010, 07:56 PM
  #365
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And the guys I would want most ideally taking the place of PM would be Brenden Morrow or Jarome Iginla via trade.

Also, if the two salaries were equal: Kovie>Marleau. Sorry, that is a fact. Look it up sometime.

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06-18-2010, 07:59 PM
  #366
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Kovy is more explosive and dynamic than Marleau, but I'll take Marleau's overall game and cheaper price over Kovy and his bloated demands.

Also would agree with others that Marleau is a better fit for this team than Kovy.

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06-18-2010, 08:04 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
Agree to disagree

I do agree that good players find a way to get to loose pucks and "be in the right place at the right time."

But sometimes it is just dumb luck. The problem is, we have a lot of guys that can't capitalize when they are awarded with a golden opportunity. Marleau is definitely an opportunist, and I would trust him pouncing on the puck in the high slot as much as any top sniper in the game to turn it into a great scoring chance. I feel like a good deal of his goals are a result of the hard work of someone else on the team though.

Mostly, I would just like to see Nabby and Patty gone and the dawn of a new era in San Jose. I would also like JT to shoot more!
So, change for the sake of change, not because what would be replaced is any better, but your entertainment value (clamoring for Kovy) has gone down and you feel that the team won't be successful with those two in teal.

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06-18-2010, 08:26 PM
  #368
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Nabby has had plenty of time to prove his playoff worth and has come up short. PM has been consistently good but not dominant, and typically was outplayed by his captain counterpart on every team we would square off against in the playoffs. I feel these players have not gotten it done. I would not be against keeping them if it weren't for the salary issues. I would want Nabby to take a much more massive discount than PM though to keep him.

Call that change for the sake of change or what you will.

I realize obtaining Kovalchuk is a fantasy land dream for the sake of off-season entertainment. It is fun to indulge from time to time. I like to be entertained as a fan of a sport, which is why I watch. It is also entertaining to speculate and keep up to date on all the latest off season moves.

Ultimately, how does the Sharks winning a cup make my life any better? Does it give real life benefits to me? You do get to watch more hockey and be entertained longer (4 rounds of it vs 1-3 rounds). I guess the real draw is being a winner (or recent Stanley Cup Champion) makes guys want to come play here and be willing to play for a discount. Then Kovie will want to come play here for 7m a season! Oh snaps!

Losing is no fun. True. Double true. Winning is more fun. Winning and scoring lots of pretty goals = Moar Funner. High fives to be had. Guys come in to pound fists and then go all "Explosion!"

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06-18-2010, 08:32 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by MadmanSJ View Post
Nabby has had plenty of time to prove his playoff worth and has come up short. PM has been consistently good but not dominant, and typically was outplayed by his captain counterpart on every team we would square off against in the playoffs. I feel these players have not gotten it done. I would not be against keeping them if it weren't for the salary issues. I would want Nabby to take a much more massive discount than PM though to keep him.

Call that change for the sake of change or what you will.

I realize obtaining Kovalchuk is a fantasy land dream for the sake of off-season entertainment. It is fun to indulge from time to time. I like to be entertained as a fan of a sport, which is why I watch. It is also entertaining to speculate and keep up to date on all the latest off season moves.

Ultimately, how does the Sharks winning a cup make my life any better? Does it give real life benefits to me? You do get to watch more hockey and be entertained longer (4 rounds of it vs 1-3 rounds). I guess the real draw is being a winner (or recent Stanley Cup Champion) makes guys want to come play here and be willing to play for a discount. Then Kovie will want to come play here for 7m a season! Oh snaps!

Losing is no fun. True. Double true. Winning is more fun. Winning and scoring lots of pretty goals = Moar Funner. High fives to be had. Guys come in to pound fists and then go all "Explosion!"
The problem is you seem to think that Kovy coming to San Jose means winning hockey stays. That's not even close to being true. Unless you have better options available and Kovy is not a better option, then it's better the evil you know and can build around to compensate for the weaknesses of a player you know than having to learn a completely new set of weaknesses to cover up...and with Kovy, there is a lot of them.

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06-18-2010, 08:50 PM
  #370
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The problem is you seem to think that Kovy coming to San Jose means winning hockey stays. That's not even close to being true. Unless you have better options available and Kovy is not a better option, then it's better the evil you know and can build around to compensate for the weaknesses of a player you know than having to learn a completely new set of weaknesses to cover up...and with Kovy, there is a lot of them.
That's why I want to trade Murray too

Or shoot.. I would just make a first line of Kovie/Jumbo/Mitchell. Problem solved !

Again, I am just having some fun with all of this. Truth be told though, I do feel like people have an irrational sentimental attachment to PM as he was drafted/developed/captained by this organization and has been the most successful player in team history. I do it too, I will always have the warm fuzzies in my heart for Cheechoo, even when he played like Poophoo.

And since Kovie's name surfaced, I just thought it funny how many people say he is terrible defensively.. I would put his defensive game more realistically on par with average. The Thrashers as a whole team/organization/coaching system/whatever are definitely not the Sharks. Kovie was also not the reason the Devils went down without much more than a whimper, as many would like to try and correlate when discussing his playoff contributions.

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06-18-2010, 09:13 PM
  #371
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That's why I want to trade Murray too

Or shoot.. I would just make a first line of Kovie/Jumbo/Mitchell. Problem solved !

Again, I am just having some fun with all of this. Truth be told though, I do feel like people have an irrational sentimental attachment to PM as he was drafted/developed/captained by this organization and has been the most successful player in team history. I do it too, I will always have the warm fuzzies in my heart for Cheechoo, even when he played like Poophoo.

And since Kovie's name surfaced, I just thought it funny how many people say he is terrible defensively.. I would put his defensive game more realistically on par with average. The Thrashers as a whole team/organization/coaching system/whatever are definitely not the Sharks. Kovie was also not the reason the Devils went down without much more than a whimper, as many would like to try and correlate when discussing his playoff contributions.
It's not an accident that a team that was 2nd in the East was only winning half their games after they acquired Kovalchuk.

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06-18-2010, 09:19 PM
  #372
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It's not an accident that a team that was 2nd in the East was only winning half their games after they acquired Kovalchuk.
That's not really fair. Kovy was a ppg player in New Jersey, but the Devils struggled as a team. There's no way his defensive effect on the team was that negatively grandiose.

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06-18-2010, 09:31 PM
  #373
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That's not really fair. Kovy was a ppg player in New Jersey, but the Devils struggled as a team. There's no way his defensive effect on the team was that negatively grandiose.
It's the star acquisition effect. The team changes as a whole on how to play when a guy like Kovy comes aboard. It's not simply his defensive abilities or lack thereof. They struggle as a team because everyone has to change how they play. The top guys have to adjust to Kovy's style. The secondary players have to play with someone new because Bergfors isn't there anymore. The d-men pairing get shaken up because a 20+ minute player is shipped out.

People underestimate just how much change occurred with the Devils when they made the acquisition. The same will happen with whoever signs him if he stays in the NHL. Joe Thornton had this sort of effect in the positive way because he's able to make others around him better. Kovalchuk doesn't do that so it's a struggle to adjust.

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06-18-2010, 09:44 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's the star acquisition effect. The team changes as a whole on how to play when a guy like Kovy comes aboard. It's not simply his defensive abilities or lack thereof. They struggle as a team because everyone has to change how they play. The top guys have to adjust to Kovy's style. The secondary players have to play with someone new because Bergfors isn't there anymore. The d-men pairing get shaken up because a 20+ minute player is shipped out.

People underestimate just how much change occurred with the Devils when they made the acquisition. The same will happen with whoever signs him if he stays in the NHL. Joe Thornton had this sort of effect in the positive way because he's able to make others around him better. Kovalchuk doesn't do that so it's a struggle to adjust.
This was part of it, but Oduya was sorely missed

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06-18-2010, 10:16 PM
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I'm sure the Devils would have gelled with Kovy over a full season. Hard to judge them on that short of time frame. Kovy did his job, the rest of the team faltered for whatever reason.

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