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Who Stays-Marleau or Nabokov?

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Old
06-06-2010, 10:30 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Not to bad actually, until Heatley got hurt, kinda like Marleau did last year. And Patty's flu or whatever had him looking like crap until the WCF's, so what's your point?

12 L Patrick Marleau 82 44 39 83 21
15 R Dany Heatley 82 39 43 82 14


Until Heatley got hurt in the PO's things were lookin pretty good, kinda like Marleau did last year. And Patty's flu or whatever had him looking like crap until the WCF's, so what's your point?

And who's to say Patty doesn't revert to his awesome 07/08 season.

12 L Patrick Marleau 78 19 29 48 -19
The other four seasons post-lockout would say he won't revert to that. I'd actually prefer Heatley to Kovalchuk only because Heatley's a lot better off the puck and passing the puck than Kovy is and that would work for this team more than a puck-hog, one-on-one player would.

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06-06-2010, 10:40 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
The other four seasons post-lockout would say he won't revert to that. I'd actually prefer Heatley to Kovalchuk only because Heatley's a lot better off the puck and passing the puck than Kovy is and that would work for this team more than a puck-hog, one-on-one player would.
That's kinda my point. Saying Heater didn't work out well due to one post season playing injured is just as unfair as judging Marleau for the piss poor season and last years playoffs.

Marleau had one of his best, if not his best season as a Shark last year and Heater was right on his tail. He also impressed most of us with his assists and an acceptable effort on D, so I'm saying I think it's worked out pretty well aside from his disappointing PO performance which I think is understandable, as it was with Marleau last year.

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06-06-2010, 10:57 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
That's kinda my point. Saying Heater didn't work out well due to one post season playing injured is just as unfair as judging Marleau for the piss poor season and last years playoffs.

Marleau had one of his best, if not his best season as a Shark last year and Heater was right on his tail. He also impressed most of us with his assists and an acceptable effort on D, so I'm saying I think it's worked out pretty well aside from his disappointing PO performance which I think is understandable, as it was with Marleau last year.
The other numbers say this past season was by far his best. The last two have been the two best of his career (same other numbers), by a large margin.

My issue with JT and Heatley is that their numbers are trending slightly down, including those other numbers. I have no issue with the effort JT or Heatley put forth this year, but I do think that their playoffs were pretty close as to what to expect. Heatley is not really a playoff goal scorer whereas Marleau is top 10 among active players (Alfredsson, Briere, Iginla, Franzen, Zetterberg, etc.). Heatley does push the assists when he isn't getting goals. Seeing Marleau trending up is very much a surprise this late in his career.

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06-06-2010, 11:33 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I really question that. He can be highlight reel as can Patty, but Patty's versatility should be given a lot more weight than you are giving it relative to Kovy's deadly shot. Kovy has played for two teams where they catered to his shot. If acquired, JT's passing game becomes a little moot. Heatley is complementary as he is good at garbage collection on rebounds. Kovy makes his own space. I don't question Kovy's desire to win, but I do think he will want a lot more than what Patty will get where the difference in total skill is not that great. Kovy is NOT a defensive player. Kovy already turned down $10mil/year from Atlanta. He may take less, but not a lot less. Rumors have $10mil/year on table from the KHL where the tax/escrow bite is a LOT less.
My take is that DW will not even be in the hunt for Kovy if Patty leaves. IMO, DW will use the money for defense/goaltending and if we are lucky, speed.
One major point aside from the difference and similarities in skills sets which is being quite overlooked, other than as mentioned as above via Easy; the money. All whom watch and know this game know that the dollars that Kovi will demand will be FAR greater than what we will be able to hold onto Patty for. This could and would kill any plan to shore up a top 2nd or 3rd spot D man and thus, we could find ourselves with a similar D next season as this season due to the lack of dollars via overspending on Kovi.

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Originally Posted by Frenzied Zamboni View Post
I'm for keeping Patty and letting Nabokov go elsewhere.

I really just wished Nabokov's playoff performances have been better. Unfortunately, they're just good enough---and good enough has only given us playoff heartbreak every year since 03-04. A change would be good.
Exactly. Naby has had some really good games but, can any of us even remember a handful of games that, like the cliche goes, 'he stole for us'?

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06-07-2010, 04:43 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
That's kinda my point. Saying Heater didn't work out well due to one post season playing injured is just as unfair as judging Marleau for the piss poor season and last years playoffs.

Marleau had one of his best, if not his best season as a Shark last year and Heater was right on his tail. He also impressed most of us with his assists and an acceptable effort on D, so I'm saying I think it's worked out pretty well aside from his disappointing PO performance which I think is understandable, as it was with Marleau last year.
My problem with the "injury excuse" heater has is the fact that he's never performed better than marleau, ever, in the playoffs. If you guys can look back at marleau post-lockout and say that's the reason he wont have an 07-08 season, why can't you look back at heater's PO numbers and say "this guy sucks every single year, injury or not he was going to suck"?

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06-07-2010, 10:12 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
My problem with the "injury excuse" heater has is the fact that he's never performed better than marleau, ever, in the playoffs. If you guys can look back at marleau post-lockout and say that's the reason he wont have an 07-08 season, why can't you look back at heater's PO numbers and say "this guy sucks every single year, injury or not he was going to suck"?
2006-2007:

Heatley-7 goals 15 assists 22 points in 20 games
Marleau-3 goals 3 assists 6 points in 11 playoff games

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06-07-2010, 11:31 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
2006-2007:

Heatley-7 goals 15 assists 22 points in 20 games
Marleau-3 goals 3 assists 6 points in 11 playoff games
Heatley's also been to the Finals, somewhere Marleau's never been.

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Old
06-07-2010, 12:58 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by D Huang View Post
Heatley's also been to the Finals, somewhere Marleau's never been.
Heatley never had to carry his team or even his line at any point during that run. Until the last two seasons, Marleau's always been expected to carry his line, if not the entire team offensively.

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06-07-2010, 01:44 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Heatley never had to carry his team or even his line at any point during that run. Until the last two seasons, Marleau's always been expected to carry his line, if not the entire team offensively.
Agree - and Marleau's actually managed it a few times, and like vs Chicago made noble efforts in other losses. I think most people should and probably do realize DW made a mistake acquiring Heatley to replace [ Marleau / goalie salary + #2 dman salary / 3rd line depth]. Marleau hurts most unless other guys make significant steps forward to replace him, more than even hopefully projected.

The people who were criticizing DW more strongly starting a few years ago have been proven right over recent years as he got more desperate, more into win-now mode, and put himself further into the corner. He can still salvage it but its not good. Some of his mistakes call into question both his ability to evaluate players and manage the cap.

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Old
06-07-2010, 04:46 PM
  #160
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Who is Dany Heatley?

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06-07-2010, 05:09 PM
  #161
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Who is Dany Heatley?
Works with Bear Grylls

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06-07-2010, 06:21 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
2006-2007:

Heatley-7 goals 15 assists 22 points in 20 games
Marleau-3 goals 3 assists 6 points in 11 playoff games
Again I get the run-around from everyone, the nit-picking, still no response as to why you can pick out one bad year from marleau and yet you can't look at SEVERAL years of fail from heater. I was saying that marleau beats heater in consistency because his numbers generally beat heater's even in heater's BEST RUN.

So marleau plays half the games and scores one fewer goals-per-game vs heater in his best run? Good example.

What about these numbers?:
02: 6 goals in 12 games (one less than heater's best run, 8 fewer games)
04: 8 goals in 17 games(4 fewer games than heater's best run, with one more goal)
06: 9 goals in 11 GAMES. (9 fewer games in case you can't count)
and most recent:
10: 8 goals in 14 games.

Should I even bring up heater's numbers? Ok so you have that one run where he shovels in linemate's shots for garbage goals. Then what?
When they actually need him to score look what he does:
06: 3 goals in 10 games
08: 0 goals in 4 games
10: 2 goals in 14 games(injury, whatever)

Ok so he hasn't been to the playoffs as often, but clearly when he does get the chance he's only scoring when the rest of his team is hot and scoring(not to mention against the east at a time when they were much weaker in defense/goaltending)

He'll never carry a team, he'll provide that extra goal you don't really need to win but is nice anyhow. Injury or not I'm not convinced he'll do anything based on his history.

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06-07-2010, 06:54 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
Again I get the run-around from everyone, the nit-picking, still no response as to why you can pick out one bad year from marleau and yet you can't look at SEVERAL years of fail from heater. I was saying that marleau beats heater in consistency because his numbers generally beat heater's even in heater's BEST RUN.

So marleau plays half the games and scores one fewer goals-per-game vs heater in his best run? Good example.

What about these numbers?:
02: 6 goals in 12 games (one less than heater's best run, 8 fewer games)
04: 8 goals in 17 games(4 fewer games than heater's best run, with one more goal)
06: 9 goals in 11 GAMES. (9 fewer games in case you can't count)
and most recent:
10: 8 goals in 14 games.

Should I even bring up heater's numbers? Ok so you have that one run where he shovels in linemate's shots for garbage goals. Then what?
When they actually need him to score look what he does:
06: 3 goals in 10 games
08: 0 goals in 4 games
10: 2 goals in 14 games(injury, whatever)

Ok so he hasn't been to the playoffs as often, but clearly when he does get the chance he's only scoring when the rest of his team is hot and scoring(not to mention against the east at a time when they were much weaker in defense/goaltending)

He'll never carry a team, he'll provide that extra goal you don't really need to win but is nice anyhow. Injury or not I'm not convinced he'll do anything based on his history.
A goal scored when your team is down and no longer likely to win is just as worthless as extras piled on top of a sealed win. And what's the evidence that Marleau can carry a team? They've done nothing spectacular in franchise history, so he hasn't carried them anywhere. The street goes both ways

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06-07-2010, 06:58 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Huang View Post
A goal scored when your team is down and no longer likely to win is just as worthless as extras piled on top of a sealed win. And what's the evidence that Marleau can carry a team? They've done nothing spectacular in franchise history, so he hasn't carried them anywhere. The street goes both ways
But somehow to you there's more value in being a passenger to a team that loses in the finals.

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06-07-2010, 07:03 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by GuitarByte View Post
Again I get the run-around from everyone, the nit-picking, still no response as to why you can pick out one bad year from marleau and yet you can't look at SEVERAL years of fail from heater. I was saying that marleau beats heater in consistency because his numbers generally beat heater's even in heater's BEST RUN.

So marleau plays half the games and scores one fewer goals-per-game vs heater in his best run? Good example.

What about these numbers?:
02: 6 goals in 12 games (one less than heater's best run, 8 fewer games)
04: 8 goals in 17 games(4 fewer games than heater's best run, with one more goal)
06: 9 goals in 11 GAMES. (9 fewer games in case you can't count)
and most recent:
10: 8 goals in 14 games.

Should I even bring up heater's numbers? Ok so you have that one run where he shovels in linemate's shots for garbage goals. Then what?
When they actually need him to score look what he does:
06: 3 goals in 10 games
08: 0 goals in 4 games
10: 2 goals in 14 games(injury, whatever)

Ok so he hasn't been to the playoffs as often, but clearly when he does get the chance he's only scoring when the rest of his team is hot and scoring(not to mention against the east at a time when they were much weaker in defense/goaltending)

He'll never carry a team, he'll provide that extra goal you don't really need to win but is nice anyhow. Injury or not I'm not convinced he'll do anything based on his history.
Jeez calm down there chief. I just pointed out something that you said was incorrect.

Even if he wasn't scoring, Heatley was putting up points.

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06-07-2010, 07:05 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Huang View Post
A goal scored when your team is down and no longer likely to win is just as worthless as extras piled on top of a sealed win. And what's the evidence that Marleau can carry a team? They've done nothing spectacular in franchise history, so he hasn't carried them anywhere. The street goes both ways
And you just lost the argument on that one based on stats. Check playoff GWG's and show me how many players have more over the same time period.

The second part of your argument is silly. Hockey is a team sport and that is the beauty of it. The point was made earlier that no one player carries a team entirely through the playoffs. Check the Conn Smythe winners and show me any one who was entirely responsible for a cup win.

Saying that a player is trash because he can't accomplish an impossbile task is not a good argument.

The real argument is how critical is a player to a team's future success and can he be replaced with a better player or combination of players. The real argument on Marleau hinges on the answer to that question.

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06-07-2010, 07:06 PM
  #167
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But somehow to you there's more value in being a passenger to a team that loses in the finals.
You're making it sound like Heatley accidentally got points during that run. The guy was on the top line, he was more than just a passenger.

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06-07-2010, 07:10 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
You're making it sound like Heatley accidentally got points during that run. The guy was on the top line, he was more than just a passenger.
Until the final round.

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06-07-2010, 07:12 PM
  #169
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Until the final round.
Well, only Alfredsson had a good round for them.

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06-07-2010, 07:22 PM
  #170
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Well, only Alfredsson had a good round for them.
I had Fisher as OK in that round as well, but that was about it. Funny how the guy who got less of the credit during the year was pretty much the heart of that team. Alfie was creditable in the 4-0 loss in their ugly playoffs as well, but the injury was too much.

For me, the guys who still fight back at overwhelming odds are the guys I would want on my team, even if they do lose.

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06-07-2010, 07:23 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Until the final round.
heatley 1 goal, 0 assists in 5 games.
spezza 0 goals, 2 assists in 5 games.
alfredsson 3 goals, 2 assists in 5 games.

this is the funny thing about sports, it was alright for spezza to be useless that round, but heatley it wasn't. heatley gets all the blame for the loss, while spezza goes scotch free.

and i still won't get on heatley's case, for his entire playoff career he is still a point per game player. but i know, putting up point per game numbers is just lucky, and he really did nothing to garner those types of numbers.

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06-07-2010, 07:27 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
heatley 1 goal, 0 assists in 5 games.
spezza 0 goals, 2 assists in 5 games.
alfredsson 3 goals, 2 assists in 5 games.

this is the funny thing about sports, it was alright for spezza to be useless that round, but heatley it wasn't. heatley gets all the blame for the loss, while spezza goes scotch free.
Believe me, I wasn't letting Spezza off the hook. They were both awful and Murray wasn't exactly happy with either. With the way Murray was handling the whole thing, I thought he was throwing gasoline on the fire.

Others may have let Spezza off, I did not and never have.

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06-07-2010, 07:29 PM
  #173
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Believe me, I wasn't letting Spezza off the hook. They were both awful and Murray wasn't exactly happy with either. With the way Murray was handling the whole thing, I thought he was throwing gasoline on the fire.

Others may have let Spezza off, I did not and never have.
I think that was more aimed at Sens fans. A large majority of them blame the entire thing on Heatley noting that Alfredsson and Spezza carried him the entire playoffs, when in reality it was only Alfy who deserved the credit.

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06-07-2010, 07:30 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
heatley 1 goal, 0 assists in 5 games.
spezza 0 goals, 2 assists in 5 games.
alfredsson 3 goals, 2 assists in 5 games.

this is the funny thing about sports, it was alright for spezza to be useless that round, but heatley it wasn't. heatley gets all the blame for the loss, while spezza goes scotch free.
Hey, he had twice as many points as Heatley.

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06-07-2010, 07:34 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
You're making it sound like Heatley accidentally got points during that run. The guy was on the top line, he was more than just a passenger.
I'm not actually. Heater was a ppg player this post-season but I wouldn't call what he did as being anything more than a passenger. The same is true for that Ottawa run. He had some meaningful production but he never was the driving force on that line and was never the guy that controlled play even though he got points.

Alfredsson was a goal-scoring machine that year and Spezza played very similar to how Thornton plays in terms of controlling the puck. He didn't accidentally get the same stat line as Spezza and he didn't simply get lucky to do that. He worked his tail off to do it just as he did injured this year. But relative to the linemates he played with, he was the 3rd most important player out there just like this year and just like every year he plays with two star players.

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