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Top 10 Defensemen

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Old
05-16-2004, 08:14 PM
  #26
Mizral
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1 - Nicklas Lidstrom : This guy is a modern day legend on ice.

2 - Chris Pronger : There are times when he can be the best defenseman in the league. If he could control his temper, he would truely challenge Lidstrom.

3 - Rob Blake : Perhaps the most talented defenseman in the league. Until he got injured, he was the clear-cut favorite for the Norris trophy. Can do everything on the ice, and his defensive play is severly underrated.

4 - Scott Niedermayer : Combines speed, talent, great positioning, and a big of a mean streak.

5 - Mattias Ohlund : Big, strong, agile two-way defenseman who can be used to shut down the oppositions best forward, or put on the power play to score a goal.

6 - Adam Foote : Just a mean son of a gun. Underrated offensive ability! One of the best shutdown guys in the league.

7 - Mathieu Schneider : For my money, the best power play quarterback in the league. Guy is also one of the most underrated players. Seems like every year he's either on the all-star game, or was a giant snub.

8 - Wade Redden : Before I get to Redden, I would like to briefly address Zdeno Chara. Perhaps it's just me, but I think the guy is no better than Bryan McCabe - yet another overrated guy out there. He had a great year, but the + doesn't impress me. Marek frickin' Malik was a +35. Zdeno is clearly top 15, but Wade Redden is the straw that stirs the drink on that blueline. Redden is exceptionally gifted positionally, and is excellent in all areas of the ice. The only downside with Redden is he's not overly physical. Still, he's no pushover.

9 - Ed Jovanovski : Jovocop didn't have a great season due to a shoulder seperation that didn't even get a chance to fully heal. However, even still he was yet again one of the best Canucks in the playoffs. The year previous he put up 46 points in only 67 games, then 7 goals in 14 games in the playoffs. His mental errors haven't happened as much in the last two years to boot. Jovocop is the only defenseman in the league that literally has every talent you want in the blueliner. The only issue so far is his mental game and his ability to stay away from injury.

10 - Sergei Zubov : When he's on, he's the only guy who can be better than Schneider as a PP QB in this league for my bucks. Zubov is just INSANELY talented. Few defenseman can literally dominate a game offensivly like Zubov can. I've seen games, heck, playoff series', where it's almost Zubov alone destroying a team. The downside is that he just came off a very poor year, and he's getting a little older. However, where I consider him better than other similar players like Leetch and Gonchar is his stickhandling, which is top 10 in this league easily.

Note: Al MacInnis and Scott Stevens were left off due to questions about their injury status. If they were healthy, MacInnis would clock in at #5 on my list and bump everyone else down, and Stevens in the #9 hole and bump Jovo and Zubov down

Gonchar, Leetch, Chara, Aucoin, and Timmonen (who I was surprised nobody even mentioned!) round out my top 11 - 15 spots. Guys like McCabe, Regehr, Boynton, Hatcher, and Desjardins my top 20.

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Old
05-16-2004, 08:22 PM
  #27
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In no particular order:

Lidstrom
Pronger
Blake
Neidermayer
Foote
Chara
Leetch

After that it becomes a little hazy.....

Jovanovski
Redden
Zubov
Hatcher
Schneider
Aucoin
Ohlund
McCabe

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Old
05-16-2004, 10:10 PM
  #28
Dantes19
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Just curious, could you elaborate as to why you don't consider Chara to be among the top 10 d-men in the league??



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
1 - Nicklas Lidstrom : This guy is a modern day legend on ice.

2 - Chris Pronger : There are times when he can be the best defenseman in the league. If he could control his temper, he would truely challenge Lidstrom.

3 - Rob Blake : Perhaps the most talented defenseman in the league. Until he got injured, he was the clear-cut favorite for the Norris trophy. Can do everything on the ice, and his defensive play is severly underrated.

4 - Scott Niedermayer : Combines speed, talent, great positioning, and a big of a mean streak.

5 - Mattias Ohlund : Big, strong, agile two-way defenseman who can be used to shut down the oppositions best forward, or put on the power play to score a goal.

6 - Adam Foote : Just a mean son of a gun. Underrated offensive ability! One of the best shutdown guys in the league.

7 - Mathieu Schneider : For my money, the best power play quarterback in the league. Guy is also one of the most underrated players. Seems like every year he's either on the all-star game, or was a giant snub.

8 - Wade Redden : Before I get to Redden, I would like to briefly address Zdeno Chara. Perhaps it's just me, but I think the guy is no better than Bryan McCabe - yet another overrated guy out there. He had a great year, but the + doesn't impress me. Marek frickin' Malik was a +35. Zdeno is clearly top 15, but Wade Redden is the straw that stirs the drink on that blueline. Redden is exceptionally gifted positionally, and is excellent in all areas of the ice. The only downside with Redden is he's not overly physical. Still, he's no pushover.

9 - Ed Jovanovski : Jovocop didn't have a great season due to a shoulder seperation that didn't even get a chance to fully heal. However, even still he was yet again one of the best Canucks in the playoffs. The year previous he put up 46 points in only 67 games, then 7 goals in 14 games in the playoffs. His mental errors haven't happened as much in the last two years to boot. Jovocop is the only defenseman in the league that literally has every talent you want in the blueliner. The only issue so far is his mental game and his ability to stay away from injury.

10 - Sergei Zubov : When he's on, he's the only guy who can be better than Schneider as a PP QB in this league for my bucks. Zubov is just INSANELY talented. Few defenseman can literally dominate a game offensivly like Zubov can. I've seen games, heck, playoff series', where it's almost Zubov alone destroying a team. The downside is that he just came off a very poor year, and he's getting a little older. However, where I consider him better than other similar players like Leetch and Gonchar is his stickhandling, which is top 10 in this league easily.

Note: Al MacInnis and Scott Stevens were left off due to questions about their injury status. If they were healthy, MacInnis would clock in at #5 on my list and bump everyone else down, and Stevens in the #9 hole and bump Jovo and Zubov down

Gonchar, Leetch, Chara, Aucoin, and Timmonen (who I was surprised nobody even mentioned!) round out my top 11 - 15 spots. Guys like McCabe, Regehr, Boynton, Hatcher, and Desjardins my top 20.

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Old
05-16-2004, 10:16 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Wiz
Where would Tarnstrom and Zidlicky fit in as far as rankings ?

They'd be in top 20 wouldn't they ?
Both would be hard-pressed to be in the top 50 IMO, Ill name 50 better than them if you want.

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05-16-2004, 10:18 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Both would be hard-pressed to be in the top 50 IMO, Ill name 50 better than them if you want.
Umm... Zidlicky maybe, but Tarnstrom is a really good offensive defenseman on a terrible Penguins team. I bet you don't make that comment if he plays on any other team.

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Old
05-16-2004, 10:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Russian_fanatic
Leopold is very good , but he would be a top 4 on most team , I will never see him as a number 1 defence man with the likes of everyone up there

*Blake , Foote , Pronger , Neidermayer , Jovanovski , Ohlund*

All of them can play offence just like Leopold , but the thing that ALL of them can do , but Leopold cant is move big foward out of the crease area which is a big thing ...
Ouch, you really have to watch more of Calgary's games. Leopold not a top 4 on most teams in the league? You can't be serious? He's one of the top 2 dmen on one of the best defensive groups in the entire league. He would easily be top 4 on every team in the league and top 2 on many of them. I really have no clue where that comment came from.

And Leopold can move a big forward from the crease. It doesn't take a big, strong dman to do that. You have Niedermayer listed as being able to do that, well so can Leopold. He does it with positioning and stickwork. You seem to forget that this is only Leopold's 2nd year in the league and he's already at this level. Just imagine what he'll be at in a few more years.

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Old
05-16-2004, 10:41 PM
  #32
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Leopold would be a top 4 defenseman on any team in the league with ease. I'd take him on the Canucks as the #3 defenseman over Salo & Sopel.

Is Leopold a #1 defenseman by ice time? Yeah. Is he by the standards we're talking about? No. Leopold at the moment I think most would classify as a #3 defenseman currently, but he's moving up rapidly. Inside of 3 years, Leopold I think will be a #1 defenseman, and on some of these top 10 charts inside of 5 years. He's one of the best kept secrets in all of the Western Conference.

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05-16-2004, 10:41 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritty
Ouch, you really have to watch more of Calgary's games. Leopold not a top 4 on most teams in the league? You can't be serious? He's one of the top 2 dmen on one of the best defensive groups in the entire league. He would easily be top 4 on every team in the league and top 2 on many of them. I really have no clue where that comment came from.

And Leopold can move a big forward from the crease. It doesn't take a big, strong dman to do that. You have Niedermayer listed as being able to do that, well so can Leopold. He does it with positioning and stickwork. You seem to forget that this is only Leopold's 2nd year in the league and he's already at this level. Just imagine what he'll be at in a few more years.
Well that's explainable you're a Calgary fan you of course will stick up for him .

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05-16-2004, 10:45 PM
  #34
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I have Leopold as Calgary's 4th best defenceman. Regehr, Warrener, and Lydman are all better than Leopold IMO.

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Old
05-16-2004, 10:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Dantes19
Just curious, could you elaborate as to why you don't consider Chara to be among the top 10 d-men in the league??
First off, I don't want to be considered anti-Ottawa, because I'm not. Love the Sens, and I have been a tireless crusader of guys like Redden and Hossa on this board over the years (particularly Hossa who is one of my favorite players in the league).

Chara's massive advantage is his massive size and massive mean streak. (he's also a heck of a fighter by the way, but he doesn't fight much in the NHL. Truely, he was the best fighter I've ever seen in major junior) However, Chara I believe has some major downfalls to his game that I think don't tend to be seen as often as they might on another team due to Ottawa's great defensive system.

First, I'll start on the giveaways. They aren't the only reason, but Chara does make some poor choices with the puck in his own zone at times. I'm not saying it's a crisis here - he isn't Hans Johnson. But it's enough to make you wonder if he belongs in the top 5 as some have. Still, some guys in my top 10 do have giveaway problems too (Zubov, Blake and Jovocop for instance).

The second part that bothers me about Chara is I do not think he's ironed out some of the problems he has positionally. It's not just about his footspeed either (which isn't poor, but isn't great either). In particular, Chara seems to lose his place on the cycle if guys get behind him more than you'd like to see - particularly if the play ends up going around the back of the net.

He is absolutely one of the better defensemen in the league. However, those two issues about Chara are large enough to make me think he doesn't quite belong in the top 10. His defensive play even with those deficiencies is no worse than a guy like Zubov's, but Zubov's offensive game is probobly superior, as is his skating and puck devisions.

Another small point I'd like to mention is that I think Chara had a bit of a 'dream' season last year offensivly. 34 points is about where I'd have him at most years, but 15 goals seemed like more than you'd expect from him year-to-year.

I don't mean to completely trash Chara, because he does have some awesome positives to his game. However, I believe even the most ardent Sens fan would probobly agree with me in saying that Redden is a better defenseman than Chara over the long haul.

If it does make anyone feel better though, I'd have him only *just* outside the top 10. Around #11 or #12 probobly.

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05-16-2004, 10:58 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
First off, I don't want to be considered anti-Ottawa, because I'm not. Love the Sens, and I have been a tireless crusader of guys like Redden and Hossa on this board over the years (particularly Hossa who is one of my favorite players in the league).

Chara's massive advantage is his massive size and massive mean streak. (he's also a heck of a fighter by the way, but he doesn't fight much in the NHL. Truely, he was the best fighter I've ever seen in major junior) However, Chara I believe has some major downfalls to his game that I think don't tend to be seen as often as they might on another team due to Ottawa's great defensive system.

First, I'll start on the giveaways. They aren't the only reason, but Chara does make some poor choices with the puck in his own zone at times. I'm not saying it's a crisis here - he isn't Hans Johnson. But it's enough to make you wonder if he belongs in the top 5 as some have. Still, some guys in my top 10 do have giveaway problems too (Zubov, Blake and Jovocop for instance).

The second part that bothers me about Chara is I do not think he's ironed out some of the problems he has positionally. It's not just about his footspeed either (which isn't poor, but isn't great either). In particular, Chara seems to lose his place on the cycle if guys get behind him more than you'd like to see - particularly if the play ends up going around the back of the net.

He is absolutely one of the better defensemen in the league. However, those two issues about Chara are large enough to make me think he doesn't quite belong in the top 10. His defensive play even with those deficiencies is no worse than a guy like Zubov's, but Zubov's offensive game is probobly superior, as is his skating and puck devisions.

Another small point I'd like to mention is that I think Chara had a bit of a 'dream' season last year offensivly. 34 points is about where I'd have him at most years, but 15 goals seemed like more than you'd expect from him year-to-year.

I don't mean to completely trash Chara, because he does have some awesome positives to his game. However, I believe even the most ardent Sens fan would probobly agree with me in saying that Redden is a better defenseman than Chara over the long haul.

If it does make anyone feel better though, I'd have him only *just* outside the top 10. Around #11 or #12 probobly.
Much like the Jovanovski , Ohlund debate . Jovanovski is better than Ohlund because these two (Jovo , Redden) are completely the same , both play a simular game , but Jovanovski is more phyisical .

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Old
05-17-2004, 12:14 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian_fanatic
Well that's explainable you're a Calgary fan you of course will stick up for him .
Give me a break. It's not a matter of "sticking up for him". It's a matter of truth. I never come on these boards and pump up Calgary players. I speak from personal opinions and I have no biased opinions. Leopold IS a top 4 dman in every team in the league, that's is so simple it isn't even funny. Anyone who has seen him play can see that. Anyone that doesn't believe that doesn't know a quality dman. On most teams he would be a #4 at the very least. In 5 years he will be a top 10 dman, he's that good.

I really love who you can post such a mature thought. Good to see you can provide reasons behind an answer. Nice work.

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05-17-2004, 12:33 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritty
Give me a break. It's not a matter of "sticking up for him". It's a matter of truth. I never come on these boards and pump up Calgary players. I speak from personal opinions and I have no biased opinions. Leopold IS a top 4 dman in every team in the league, that's is so simple it isn't even funny. Anyone who has seen him play can see that. Anyone that doesn't believe that doesn't know a quality dman. On most teams he would be a #4 at the very least. In 5 years he will be a top 10 dman, he's that good.

I really love who you can post such a mature thought. Good to see you can provide reasons behind an answer. Nice work.
I agree with you. It takes a while for a D-man in the NHL to be an "elite". Leopold will be in that classification in about 3-5 years IMO.

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Old
05-17-2004, 12:42 PM
  #39
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Lidstrom
Chara
Pronger
Neidermayer
Blake
Hatcher
Redden
Ohlund
Gonchar
Zubov

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Old
05-17-2004, 12:58 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritty
Give me a break. It's not a matter of "sticking up for him". It's a matter of truth. I never come on these boards and pump up Calgary players. I speak from personal opinions and I have no biased opinions. Leopold IS a top 4 dman in every team in the league, that's is so simple it isn't even funny. Anyone who has seen him play can see that. Anyone that doesn't believe that doesn't know a quality dman. On most teams he would be a #4 at the very least. In 5 years he will be a top 10 dman, he's that good.

I really love who you can post such a mature thought. Good to see you can provide reasons behind an answer. Nice work.
I can think of a few teams Leopold would not make the ''top 4'', namely the Wings with Lidstrom, Hatcher, Schneider, Chelios all better, and San Jose with Rathje, Stuart, Hannan, and Mclaren.

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05-17-2004, 01:06 PM
  #41
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I dunno about the Sharks. Considering their power play bites, Leopold would probobly get 18 minutes a night at least.

The Wings for sure. But they are a special case, wouldn't you agree?

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05-17-2004, 01:08 PM
  #42
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Oh no doubt, the Wings really spent a lot of $$$ on their defence, but I'm waiting for an arguement that Leopold is better than either Rathje, Hannan, Mclaren, or Stuart.

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05-17-2004, 01:39 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Oh no doubt, the Wings really spent a lot of $$$ on their defence, but I'm waiting for an arguement that Leopold is better than either Rathje, Hannan, Mclaren, or Stuart.
I'd take Jordan Leopold over Kyle McLaren in absolute heartbeat.

1. Scott Hannan
2. Mike Rathje
3. Brad Stuart
4. Jordan Leopold
5. Kyle McLaren

McLaren is not that good... I don't know how long it will take people to realize this. He is *not* a guy you want out there in crucial situations, and his over-aggressiveness often leads to missed defensive assignments.

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05-17-2004, 05:59 PM
  #44
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I can't believe that I totally forgot about Pronger. I'd put him on instead of McCabe.

The reason I left Mac and Jovo off is because neither of them have been playing much recently, so I don't think that somebody who plays 50 great games should make it on over somebody who plays 80 great games.

As for Jordan Leopold, I would certainly take him to have on my team over most defensmen in the NHL. His youth and skill make him a great investment for any team.

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05-17-2004, 06:14 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
I have Leopold as Calgary's 4th best defenceman. Regehr, Warrener, and Lydman are all better than Leopold IMO.
Obviously you haven't seen enough Calgary games. He was clearly better than Warrener or Lydman THIS season and his ice time reflects that. Of course if you aren't taking the entire season into account...

I have him as tied for our best defensemen this season. Of course in the playoffs Regehr stepped up his game and is our clear #1 but seems foolish to focus just on the playoffs.

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05-17-2004, 06:17 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
5 - Mattias Ohlund : Big, strong, agile two-way defenseman who can be used to shut down the oppositions best forward, or put on the power play to score a goal.
I swear, you could use this exact description for Chara. You are very high on Ohlund, but overall very few facets of his game are superior to Chara. Chara is stronger offensively and has a clear advantage physically, and not just because he drops the gloves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
However, Chara I believe has some major downfalls to his game that I think don't tend to be seen as often as they might on another team due to Ottawa's great defensive system.
I have a problem with you using this as the crux of your argument because it is conjecture, but that's your opinion.
I believe that the system the Senators employ benefits Chara offensively more than defensively, although Chara has shown that he can create offense by himself. The way that Martin distributed icetime amongst the defenseman was a disservice to Chara, a d-man like him needs to be playing more than 24 minutes to maximize his impact on the game. Even Ohlund averaged 3 minutes more per game than he did in the playoffs.

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05-17-2004, 07:47 PM
  #47
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I don't think too many G.M.'s would agree with you.

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05-17-2004, 08:56 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi
Oh no doubt, the Wings really spent a lot of $$$ on their defence, but I'm waiting for an arguement that Leopold is better than either Rathje, Hannan, Mclaren, or Stuart.
I have absolutely no problem saying that Leopold is better than McLaren. I'm not sold on McLaren whatsoever. I think he's slow and gets out of position quite regularly. His offensive skills are minimal and he doesn't control a game like Leopold can. Leopold plays in every situation and plays it well. He would make the Sharks top 4.

So that's 2 teams that he isn't a top 4 dman on and only because those teams shell out big cash to grab top dmen. Give Leopold the years of service that those players have and we'll see what the case is then. Everyone seems to forget that this guy has only played 2 years and he is already that good. Anyone who can't see it has to watch some Calgary games a little more often.

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05-17-2004, 09:45 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Voodoo
I swear, you could use this exact description for Chara. You are very high on Ohlund, but overall very few facets of his game are superior to Chara. Chara is stronger offensively and has a clear advantage physically, and not just because he drops the gloves.
I'd say Chara's actually no better than Ohlund offensivly. Ohlund never gets 1st unit power play time unless an injury has happened, yet he scored 14 goals last year (compared to Zdeno Chara's 16 goals) and 34 points (compared to Zdeno's 41).

Just of note, check out their playoff stats. Chara scored 1 goal and 1 assists in 7 games this year. Ohlund 1 goal 4 assists. The year before, Chara scored 1 goal and 6 assists in 18 games. That same season, Ohlund picked up 3 goals and 4 assists.

I won't go into career stats too much, but lets just say Ohlund has a huge edge in both playoff scoring and regular season scoring over his career.

Physically Chara has a clear edge, yet Ohlund is still one of the stronger defensemen in the NHL.

Defensivly, Ohlund has the edge. Ohlund's hallmark is consistancy, crease clearing, and tremendous defensive play. Chara can hit like a ******* but is he comparable in his defensive game in terms of consistancy, puck decisions, 1 on 1 play, and turning into the corners? No.

Quote:
I have a problem with you using this as the crux of your argument because it is conjecture, but that's your opinion.
I believe that the system the Senators employ benefits Chara offensively more than defensively, although Chara has shown that he can create offense by himself. The way that Martin distributed icetime amongst the defenseman was a disservice to Chara, a d-man like him needs to be playing more than 24 minutes to maximize his impact on the game. Even Ohlund averaged 3 minutes more per game than he did in the playoffs.
Again, Chara doesn't suck. He's very, very good in my books, and if he can shore up some of his problems with puck decisions in particular, he'd fly up my list. His offense is just fine, I agree. However, if you're going to use the arguement that Martin is an idiot, I don't know if you can do much with that. A President's Trophy winning NHL head coach agrees with me that Redden is better if you look at the ice time.

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Old
05-17-2004, 10:01 PM
  #50
zetterberg40
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my top10:

1. Lidstrom
2. Pronger
3. Blake
4. Neidermayer
5. Gonchar
6. Foote
7. Jovonovski
8. Schneider
9. Zubov
10. Chara
===========================
my top 11-20 after that

11. Aucoin
12. MacInnis (if he can get back)
13. Redden
14. Stevens
15. Leetch
16. McCabe
17. Jonsson
18. Kubina
19. Morris
20. Hatcher (when healthy and 100% i think he could be back at top 20 or better, he was a norris finalist last year and age isnt a factor when ur in your early 30's)

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