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Top 10 Defensemen

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Old
05-17-2004, 10:06 PM
  #51
V for Voodoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'd say Chara's actually no better than Ohlund offensivly. Ohlund never gets 1st unit power play time unless an injury has happened, yet he scored 14 goals last year (compared to Zdeno Chara's 16 goals) and 34 points (compared to Zdeno's 41).
Chara isn't on the 1st PP unit either.

Here are the regular season stats for PP TOI per game.
Chara: 3.11
Ohlund: 3.00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Just of note, check out their playoff stats. Chara scored 1 goal and 1 assists in 7 games this year. Ohlund 1 goal 4 assists. The year before, Chara scored 1 goal and 6 assists in 18 games. That same season, Ohlund picked up 3 goals and 4 assists.
Well, we both know what happened in the playoffs this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I won't go into career stats too much, but lets just say Ohlund has a huge edge in both playoff scoring and regular season scoring over his career.
We're talking about the present and the future, not the past.
Chara did not break out until two years ago, obviously Ohlund will have better stats for the 4-5 years prior to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Physically Chara has a clear edge, yet Ohlund is still one of the stronger defensemen in the NHL.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Defensivly, Ohlund has the edge. Ohlund's hallmark is consistancy, crease clearing, and tremendous defensive play. Chara can hit like a ******* but is he comparable in his defensive game in terms of consistancy, puck decisions, 1 on 1 play, and turning into the corners? No.
Ohlund is better 1 on 1? I emphatically disagree. The other aspects are extremely close.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Again, Chara doesn't suck. He's very, very good in my books, and if he can shore up some of his problems with puck decisions in particular, he'd fly up my list.
Hyperbole #1: I know you don't think he sucks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
His offense is just fine, I agree. However, if you're going to use the arguement that Martin is an idiot, I don't know if you can do much with that. A President's Trophy winning NHL head coach agrees with me that Redden is better if you look at the ice time.
Hyperbole #2: Nowhere did I call Martin an idiot.

He under-utilized Chara and Redden in the playoffs, though especially Chara.
These guys are your horses, they should be ridden hard because they are the ones that will take you all the way.

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Old
05-17-2004, 11:03 PM
  #52
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Either way, then why would he play Redden over Chara at all? He must have felt that Redden is more useful to have on the ice more often, which is usually a pretty good indicator of being a better defenseman.

Which is part of the reason I believe Redden is better than Chara. (May as well get to this arguement, since we're going to be bickering to death about Ohlund and Chara and not get anywhere).

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Old
05-17-2004, 11:24 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Either way, then why would he play Redden over Chara at all? He must have felt that Redden is more useful to have on the ice more often, which is usually a pretty good indicator of being a better defenseman.

Which is part of the reason I believe Redden is better than Chara. (May as well get to this arguement, since we're going to be bickering to death about Ohlund and Chara and not get anywhere).
No coach is beyond reproach, we both know that.
I'd read Martin's mind, but I'm too afraid. I'd imagine it's alot like Pleasantville. Spooky.

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Old
05-18-2004, 12:19 AM
  #54
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This is quite bizarre.
For the 2 years I've felt Toronto's defence is slightly underrated, now when I look at most people's listings I see McCabe and Leetch mentioned frequently.

I'm beginning to think our defence is starting to become overrated (With the exception of Kerg/Kaberle).

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Old
05-18-2004, 11:27 AM
  #55
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I can't believe how many people have Jovo on their list of top 10, and Ohlund not getting mentioned much.

I don't know if I'd put either in my top 10 overall in the NHL right now, but Ohlund is right now a much better dman.

Jovo has more upside, more talent and should round out to be a better overall dman, but right now Ohlund just does more for our team, is much more consistent and is a much better defender.

Jovo IMO has top 5 talent, and should be in the top 10 soon... but when you take his last 3-4 seasons combined, I don't think he's played consistently well enough to be put into a top 10 *current* list of NHL defenders.

there are quite a few dmen last season, like Chara, Aucoin, maybe even McCabe who had played better... on a current list they should all be ahead of Jovo at this stage... Jovo still has more value IMO than most of these guys (similar to Chara I would think) based on his upside and his talent level.... from the original post, this was kinda unclear...

there is a difference I think between who are the top 10 current defenders and who are the top 10 most valuable (in terms of trade/market value) defenders... Chara for example has to be in the latter group (a Norris candidate who's 26 yrs old and is entering the prime of this career, making less than $2mill/yr has a lot of value... similarly Jovo has to be among the top 10 most valuable, given his age, upside and talent level.... there are also dmen that are among the top current in the league, like Lidstrom, but his salary and age (and his constant talk about retiring soon) bring his value down the list.

but when talking about the current top 10 defenders in the game I don't think that Jovo deserves to be on that list... he is still too much of an adventure out there (although better than he was a few years ago)... a top 10 dman should be on your top pairing, and should be reliable at both ends at any point in the game... that's Ohlund's role on our team, not Jovo's - and there's a reason for it.

In a couple seasons, maybe next year, Jovo could improve enough to be there - his talent is that high IMO that he's not far off.... but right now, there are at least 10 others who have shown more consistency and been more valuable to their teams than Jovo has been for us recently IMO.

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Old
05-18-2004, 11:40 AM
  #56
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said another way NFITO......Ohlund is the Canucks best defenseman in franchise history. I challenge anyone to state a case supporting a better one, including the dude in my avatar.

Ohlund is clearly a top 10 in my mind in the league. I cannot say that for Jovo.

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Old
05-18-2004, 12:01 PM
  #57
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1.Lidstrom
2.Pronger
3.Blake
4.Neidermeyer
5.Stevens(if healthy)
6.Foote
7.Gonchar
8.Redden
9.Chara
10.Aucoin

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Old
05-18-2004, 01:02 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritty
It should get very interesting in a year or two with guys like McCabe, Ohlund, Regehr, Leopold, Bouwmeester, Pitkanen and all these other young dmen working their way up. I wonder what a top 10 in 5-6 years might be like?

Pronger
Jovanovski
Bouwmeester
Regehr
Redden
Pitkanen
Leopold
Chara
Blake
Niedermayer

That's just a quick guess. I'm very interested to see what other people think.
I'll play the Blues' homer: What about Barret Jackman??

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Old
05-18-2004, 01:07 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceace
I'll play the Blues' homer: What about Barret Jackman??
For a second I thought you were talking about top 10 in the NHL, then I saw the post you were responding to. Jackman has a good shot at being a top 10 defenseman in the future IF he can avoid the injury bug.

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Old
05-18-2004, 01:07 PM
  #60
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1) Lidstrom
2) Pronger
3) Niedermayer
4) Blake
5) Zubov
6) Leetch
7) MacInnis
8) Foote
9) Chara
10) Gonchar

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Old
05-18-2004, 02:41 PM
  #61
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If I am going into a playoff run and I had to choose between Jovo and Ohlund to backstop my top pairing I'd choose Ohlund in a heartbeat.

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Old
05-18-2004, 02:44 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = Dud
What's laughable is how you rank Schneider, Aucoin and Kubina above the 3 you find so hilarious.
I second this.

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Old
05-18-2004, 02:46 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
If you have Jovocop on your list, you may as well put Ohlund there as well. At worst, Ohlund is just as good right now.
I also agree with that too.

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Old
05-19-2004, 02:31 AM
  #64
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I thought Schneider was better than Zubov this season...a lot better. His all-around game vastly improved, and he played with grit Zubov didn't have...and I saw an assload of Stars and Wings games this year. How that translates into top-10 lists I don't know, since so many guys had crappy years (Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidstrom, Ed Jovanovski, Derek Morris). I don't think it's ludicrous to rank Schneider ahead of Zubov.

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Old
05-19-2004, 09:38 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Either way, then why would he play Redden over Chara at all? He must have felt that Redden is more useful to have on the ice more often, which is usually a pretty good indicator of being a better defenseman.

Which is part of the reason I believe Redden is better than Chara. (May as well get to this arguement, since we're going to be bickering to death about Ohlund and Chara and not get anywhere).
Redden and Chara's ice times are normally extremely close, and, as moany top teams do, they are split onto different pairings (besides the PK, where Redden and Chara formt he #1 unit). At the end of the game, Redden and Chara again form the pairing, as the need to spread out the defense subsides. In fact, Chara had more ES ice than Redden, slightly less PK (normally because he took a couple penalties), and had less PP (as Redden is on the first unit, Chara the second).

BTW Mizral, every time you bash a player on the Sens, you start your post off with the "I LIKE Ottawa", yet you CLEARLY detest Havlat (which I hypothesize is because they take away the glory from the Sedin's), and seem to have bizzare ways of evaluationg most of our players. It has always struck me as odd...

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Old
05-19-2004, 09:56 AM
  #66
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1. Niedermayer
2. Pronger
3. Jovanovski
4. Lidstrom
5. Blake
6. Foote
7. Redden
8. Zubov
9. Ohlund
10. Warrener

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Old
05-19-2004, 11:10 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeo21
1. Niedermayer
2. Pronger
3. Jovanovski
4. Lidstrom
5. Blake
6. Foote
7. Redden
8. Zubov
9. Ohlund
10. Warrener
Rhett Warrener at #10?

Surely you have to justify that selection, Takeo.

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Old
05-19-2004, 11:25 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Surely you have to justify that selection, Takeo.
He's my boy.

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Old
05-19-2004, 02:15 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
Redden and Chara's ice times are normally extremely close, and, as moany top teams do, they are split onto different pairings (besides the PK, where Redden and Chara formt he #1 unit). At the end of the game, Redden and Chara again form the pairing, as the need to spread out the defense subsides. In fact, Chara had more ES ice than Redden, slightly less PK (normally because he took a couple penalties), and had less PP (as Redden is on the first unit, Chara the second).

BTW Mizral, every time you bash a player on the Sens, you start your post off with the "I LIKE Ottawa", yet you CLEARLY detest Havlat (which I hypothesize is because they take away the glory from the Sedin's), and seem to have bizzare ways of evaluationg most of our players. It has always struck me as odd...
I don't like Havlat. I think he's vastly overrated. Has nothing to do with the Twins though. Just think he's not nearly as good as some on these boards think.

Doesn't mean I don't like the Sens. I like nearly all of their players. I've always been a big supporter of Marian Hossa on this board (last year, I said Hossa was better than Thornton and got laughed at, not even Sens fans backed me up on that one). I said Alfredsson was one of the top captains in the league and was given greif for that too.

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Old
05-19-2004, 02:17 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
I thought Schneider was better than Zubov this season...a lot better. His all-around game vastly improved, and he played with grit Zubov didn't have...and I saw an assload of Stars and Wings games this year. How that translates into top-10 lists I don't know, since so many guys had crappy years (Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidstrom, Ed Jovanovski, Derek Morris). I don't think it's ludicrous to rank Schneider ahead of Zubov.
Either do I.

But Kubina and Aucoin is pretty ridiculous

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Old
05-19-2004, 02:45 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit
I thought Schneider was better than Zubov this season...a lot better. His all-around game vastly improved, and he played with grit Zubov didn't have...and I saw an assload of Stars and Wings games this year. How that translates into top-10 lists I don't know, since so many guys had crappy years (Derian Hatcher, Nicklas Lidstrom, Ed Jovanovski, Derek Morris). I don't think it's ludicrous to rank Schneider ahead of Zubov.
I wouldn't disagree with that. Schneider impressed me just as much as anyone, I even had him pencilled in as a Norris candidate at some point in the season. However, Zubov, who didn't play any worse or better than any of his teammates, has been a superior defenseman in comparison to Schneider ever since they both came into the league. I am not a flavour person like some here (Mizral), one season does not make up for 10 years of dominance, only in some exceptions like if Zubov was on the decline and Schneider a young, rising stud defenseman, but this is neither the case. Zubov is still a far better defenseman in my book. Judgin Stars players on this season (most individual's worst season ever) while not looking at their history is quite foolish if you ask me. In your case, how bout making a top 10 center list and not include Modano untill 50 or something? It's the exact same stuff..


Last edited by Ajacied: 05-19-2004 at 02:48 PM.
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Old
05-19-2004, 06:49 PM
  #72
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Schneider has been a great player for years now. As I recall, he was on the All-Star team as a King at least twice too. It's not like he just dropped out of the sky and became good recently.

To be honest, I always like Schneider, and held him in very high esteem for about 4 years straight now (ever since he got outa NYI basically). At worst, in these past 4 years, he's only been a little bit worse than Zubov. At best, a little bit better. Realistically, I consider them about equal, but Schneider seems to have gotten better with age. Zubov, while not at the end, you can see is slowing down slightly. He's still top 10 in this league though for my money.

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Old
05-19-2004, 07:41 PM
  #73
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Okay, I'm going to change my list... Mizral has somewhat convinced me about Ohlund

In no particular order:

Pronger
Blake
Lidstrom
Leetch
Niedermayer
Foote
Schneider
Jovanovski
Chara
Ohlund

Left off due to injury: Stevens, MacInnis (who would replace Leetch, Ohlund)
Left off because I just don't think he has it anymore: Derian Hatcher. I never liked him and don't consider him a top-10 D-man. Aging and just off the top-10: Sergei Zubov.
Close to the top-10 and severely underrated: Dick Tarnstrom, Kim Johnsson.


Last edited by Classic Devil: 05-19-2004 at 08:45 PM.
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Old
05-19-2004, 08:40 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
Okay, I'm going to change my list... Mizral has somewhat convinced me about Ohlund

In no particular order:

Pronger
Blake
Lidstrom
Leetch
Niedermayer
Zubov
Schneider
Jovanovski
Chara
Ohlund

Left off due to injury: Stevens, MacInnis (who would replace Zubov, Ohlund)
Left off because I just don't think he has it anymore: Derian Hatcher. I never liked him and don't consider him a top-10 D-man.
Close to the top-10 and severely underrated: Dick Tarnstrom, Kim Johnsson.
There is no way that each of those ten, along with Dick Tarnstrom and Kim Johnsson, are all better than Adam Foote.

None.

Zero.

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Old
05-19-2004, 08:44 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
There is no way that each of those ten, along with Dick Tarnstrom and Kim Johnsson, are all better than Adam Foote.

None.

Zero.
****. I forgot Foote.
Thank you, I'll fix that.

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