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Šťastný vs Forsberg

View Poll Results: Choose a player:
Peter Mattias Forsberg 23 62.16%
Peter Šťastný 8 21.62%
I'm sorry I can't, they are way too close 6 16.22%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-04-2010, 11:03 PM
  #1
Ziostilon
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Šťastný vs Forsberg

These two played for the same organization.
This isn't the question, but there were to be an expansion franchise, i would take Stastny only for the reason of Foppa's health

Here's the question, as usual:
Who is the better player?
Peter Šťastný or Peter Mattias Forsberg




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Old
06-04-2010, 11:07 PM
  #2
ZDH
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good thing you added "Mattias" I didn't know who you were talking about until I saw that...

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Old
06-04-2010, 11:09 PM
  #3
Franck
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Forsberg, but I am very biased.

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Old
06-05-2010, 02:25 AM
  #4
Big Phil
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Two great players. Nice comparison, I like it. I always loved the constantly classy Stastny and the thing that bothered me about Forsberg was that he never had more than 30 goals in a season and didn't shoot as much as he should have. You probably would pick Stastny for the pure offensive package (passing, scoring, shooting and even skating) but overall I think I pick Forsberg.

He won a Hart and Art Ross vs. the rest of the NHL and it's something Stastny never did although no one would do that with Gretzky in the way either. Take him out and Stastny wins one. I think the physical nature of Forsberg and the stronger defensive prescence put him over the top though. Not to mention his amazing playoff resume. Leading the playoffs in points twice in non-Cup years. Winning another two Cups. You like that about him.

It bothers you about his injuries but at the same time Stastny didn't have an elite year outside of the 1980s so as strange as it may sound their longevity might even up.

Top 10 scoring finishes:
Stastny: 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 6
Forsberg: 1, 2, 4, 5, 10

If you would ask the average person who would have the better top 10 record you'd likely think Stastny in a walk, but as this chart shows you, that's not true. It is very close. Kind of reminds me on a different scale once when a poster assumed Sundin had higher top 10 finishes than Federko when the opposite was true.

So add Forsberg's all around game, his playoff legacy and it's hard not to take him

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Old
06-05-2010, 02:49 AM
  #5
VMBM
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You surely love your player vs. player polls!

This one's very good IMO. I could not choose and took the lazy way out in voting.

NHL
Peak: Forsberg
Career: Stastny

International
about even (overall, someone like Sundin was maybe slightly better performer for Team Sweden than Forsberg but so were some other Czechoslovak players compared to Stastny in the late '70s/early '80s).

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Old
06-05-2010, 04:06 AM
  #6
seventieslord
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I said it was too close.

Forsberg, when healthy, could be the league's best player. He was so seldom healthy, though. Comparing top-10 finishes is a nice way to compare their offensive dominance, but once you remove the freaks of nature and their offspring from the equation, it's a definite gap in Stastny's favour.

Of course, Forsberg makes that all up and possibly more, with his excellent defensive play, and playoff record.

Forsberg may be the better player overall. But I wouldn't have them more than 5 spots apart.

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Old
06-05-2010, 04:31 AM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I said it was too close.

Forsberg, when healthy, could be the league's best player. He was so seldom healthy, though. Comparing top-10 finishes is a nice way to compare their offensive dominance, but once you remove the freaks of nature and their offspring from the equation, it's a definite gap in Stastny's favour.

Of course, Forsberg makes that all up and possibly more, with his excellent defensive play, and playoff record.

Forsberg may be the better player overall. But I wouldn't have them more than 5 spots apart.
I'm agreeing with you a frightening amount recently...

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Old
06-05-2010, 05:19 AM
  #8
pluppe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I said it was too close.

Forsberg, when healthy, could be the league's best player. He was so seldom healthy, though. Comparing top-10 finishes is a nice way to compare their offensive dominance, but once you remove the freaks of nature and their offspring from the equation, it's a definite gap in Stastny's favour.

Of course, Forsberg makes that all up and possibly more, with his excellent defensive play, and playoff record.

Forsberg may be the better player overall. But I wouldn't have them more than 5 spots apart.
I agree that is a nice way to compare offensive value over a season but if you look at offencive dominance on a per game basis it becomes misguided when comparing two players when one was injured a lot. I feel the same thing happens in the


point per game finishes

Forsberg
1 1 2 4 5 6 6 9

Stastny
2 3 5 6 7 8

1 2 3 5 6 7 with 99 and 66 removed


then Forsberg has a gap.

I don´t think this is the definite way to compare either since I think it is one of the biggest reasons some players get overrated but i think a combo of the two might be the best way to go.

if you compare these two top ten points finishes

1 6 7

3 4 5 10

you might say it´s close

but if you add these point per game finishes

1 2 3 3 4 6 9 9

4 6 10

it´s easy to assume that Erik Lindros was a more dominant offensive player than Mark Recchi.

voted Forsberg based on Homerism and intangibles.

btw this was not directed at you in any way seventieslord, just a thought I wanted to expand on


Last edited by pluppe: 06-05-2010 at 07:13 AM.
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Old
06-05-2010, 05:42 AM
  #9
Reds4Life
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I'd take Forsberg in a second, just based on what I have seen, Stastny never dominated the way Forsberg did when he was healthy.

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06-05-2010, 07:07 AM
  #10
unknown33
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Regular Season scoring seems really close.
Now add Playoffs, Internationals and Defense.

Voted Forsberg.

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Old
06-05-2010, 09:53 AM
  #11
Psycho Papa Joe
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Stastny was a very good big game player. Forsberg was a great big game player. That's the difference between these two. Regular season play is pretty close, but Forsberg was the better playoff player. That's not an insult to Stastny, it's just that that Forsberg was just that damned good in playoff games..

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Old
06-05-2010, 11:34 AM
  #12
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Comparing top-10 finishes is a nice way to compare their offensive dominance, but once you remove the freaks of nature and their offspring from the equation, it's a definite gap in Stastny's favour.
Freaks of nature? Oh you mean that Gretzky character?

Yeah lump Stastny into that club (Hawerchuk, Yzerman, Bossy, Messier, Savard etc.) who may have won some awards if not for #99. No one in any era surpasses him anyways

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Old
06-05-2010, 12:52 PM
  #13
poise
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I like Stastny for this. Stastny was like a less talented, less physically built Jagr, and not by much. In their best seasons alone Forsberg makes it close, though I'd still take Stastny but Stastny has a big enough longevity edge, even just counting NHL play.

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Old
06-05-2010, 03:31 PM
  #14
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluppe View Post
I agree that is a nice way to compare offensive value over a season but if you look at offencive dominance on a per game basis it becomes misguided when comparing two players when one was injured a lot. I feel the same thing happens in the


point per game finishes

Forsberg
1 1 2 4 5 6 6 9

Stastny
2 3 5 6 7 8

1 2 3 5 6 7 with 99 and 66 removed


then Forsberg has a gap.

I don´t think this is the definite way to compare either since I think it is one of the biggest reasons some players get overrated but i think a combo of the two might be the best way to go.

if you compare these two top ten points finishes

1 6 7

3 4 5 10

you might say it´s close

but if you add these point per game finishes

1 2 3 3 4 6 9 9

4 6 10

it´s easy to assume that Erik Lindros was a more dominant offensive player than Mark Recchi.

voted Forsberg based on Homerism and intangibles.

btw this was not directed at you in any way seventieslord, just a thought I wanted to expand on
That's another way to look at it, but still, you have to play the games to get the credit.

Also, if you remove the freaks for Stastny you should do it for Forsberg too. (it affects him in a couple of seasons)

Regarding the freaks, I think most people agree that Coffey, Messier, Anderson and Kurri would not be top scorers on their own and Gretzky elevated them to top-5 status. I would remove them, too.

Stastny: 1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8
Forsberg: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 9

Relatively even, but still an edge for Forsberg until you consider who actually played the games and who didn't.

When comparing an injury-riddled player with a healthy one, it might be best to use a bigger sample size:

Top-100 scorers during Statsny's best 10 seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Stastny places 2nd - 1st among mortals. His points per game average was 90% as high as the highest mortal, Mike Bossy.

Top-100 scorers during Forsberg's best 11 seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Forsberg places 5th - His PPG average was, like Stastny's, 2nd among mortals, and 92% as high as the highest, Jagr.

it's a case of a guy definitely being equal per-game but missing about 260 games in the best years of his life.

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Old
06-05-2010, 03:51 PM
  #15
pluppe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
That's another way to look at it, but still, you have to play the games to get the credit.

Also, if you remove the freaks for Stastny you should do it for Forsberg too. (it affects him in a couple of seasons)

Regarding the freaks, I think most people agree that Coffey, Messier, Anderson and Kurri would not be top scorers on their own and Gretzky elevated them to top-5 status. I would remove them, too.

Stastny: 1, 2, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8
Forsberg: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 5, 9

Relatively even, but still an edge for Forsberg until you consider who actually played the games and who didn't.

When comparing an injury-riddled player with a healthy one, it might be best to use a bigger sample size:

Top-100 scorers during Statsny's best 10 seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Stastny places 2nd - 1st among mortals. His points per game average was 90% as high as the highest mortal, Mike Bossy.

Top-100 scorers during Forsberg's best 11 seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Forsberg places 5th - His PPG average was, like Stastny's, 2nd among mortals, and 92% as high as the highest, Jagr.

it's a case of a guy definitely being equal per-game but missing about 260 games in the best years of his life.
I agree about the bolded, my comment was only directed at the "dominant" part.

I also feel that removing 4 more might be pushing it (Messier for example did have his most productive season after Gretzky + 2 30 point playoffs) but since I agree it´s close I´ll let it slide.

while I think most also agree that Forsberg has his own reckless play to blame for many of his injuries, and those games missed rightfully should lead to lower ranking on career lista, I think that same attitude is what pushes him ahead of many and that therein lies the problem rating him.

I guess I have to admit that ranking players aren´t all brain, it´s also heart, and that pushes Forsberg ahead for me.

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Old
06-05-2010, 03:58 PM
  #16
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Regarding the freaks, I think most people agree that Coffey, Messier, Anderson and Kurri would not be top scorers on their own and Gretzky elevated them to top-5 status. I would remove them, too.
Messier's scoring finishes with Gretzky on the team:

3, 5, 7

Messier's scoring finishes without Gretzky:

2, 5, 10

Not much of a difference at all. Then when you consider that Messier was at the age when most forwards are in his prime during the Gretzky years and consider what Messier's role was on the team, I think Gretzky held Messier's scoring back more than he helped him. (At least in the regular season. Obviously playing on the same team as Gretz gave Messier more total playoff games in which to excel).

I do agree with the rest of your post, though.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 06-05-2010 at 04:15 PM.
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Old
06-05-2010, 04:13 PM
  #17
seventieslord
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[QUOTE=TheDevilMadeMe;26149367]
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post



Messier's scoring finishes with Gretzky on the team:

3, 5, 7

Messier's scoring finishes without Gretzky:

2, 5, 10

Not much of a difference at all. Then when you consider that Messier was at the age when most forwards are in his prime during the Gretzky years and consider what Messier's role was on the team, I think Gretzky held Messier's scoring back more than he helped him. (At least in the regular season. Obviously playing on the same team as Gretz gave Messier more total playoff games in which to excel).

I do agree with the rest of your post, though.
As it happened, Messier never made an impact on Stastny's ranking anyway.

So, we cool, we cool.

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Old
06-05-2010, 07:33 PM
  #18
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I chose too close.. but, if I had to choose one I'd prob go with Stastny.

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Old
06-10-2010, 08:46 AM
  #19
begbeee
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Remove Sakic from Colorado and try to imagine what could Forsberg did with Avs - I am sure that were not 2 Cups...
And then remove Stastny from Quebec and try to imagine what would Nordiques look like...

Stastny.

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Old
06-10-2010, 09:10 AM
  #20
tony d
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It's close but I'll go with Forsberg

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06-10-2010, 01:57 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franck View Post
Forsberg, but I am very biased.
Stastny, for the same reason!! I'll never forget seeing Quebec at Madison Sq. Garden after they came over from the WHA, and the three Stastnys working that puck around like they owned the ice. I became an instant fan.

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06-10-2010, 09:13 PM
  #22
The Kingslayer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Remove Sakic from Colorado and try to imagine what could Forsberg did with Avs - I am sure that were not 2 Cups...
And then remove Stastny from Quebec and try to imagine what would Nordiques look like...

Stastny.
Take Scott Stevens out of New Jersey does Brodeur win a cup?

Take Yzerman out of Detroit does Fedorov win a cup?

Take Lemieux out of Pittsburgh does Jagr win a cup?

We can do this all day my friend. I think the Avs win a cup without Sakic just like I think Brodeur, Fedorov and Jagr would win cups without their Hall of Fame teammates.

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Old
06-11-2010, 01:27 AM
  #23
Fredrik_71
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I like both players a lot and when looking at stats, longevity, intagibles etc. I just couldn't separate them.

/Cheers

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06-11-2010, 11:47 AM
  #24
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They're both very close career wise, slight edge to Forsberg. However, my eyes and adjusted stats tell me Forsberg is comfortably the better player between the two of them.

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