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Old
05-17-2004, 11:01 AM
  #1
Lunaris
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Umberger

will he sign?
Does management wants him?

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05-17-2004, 11:15 AM
  #2
Fletch
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Who knows the true story...

either they do not want him or they want the #2 pick and him. Further, I speculated that Sather may be playing another game here (a gamble of sorts). The game is let him become UFA, where Sather may think there will be demand, but not for the price he's asking, and Sather will trump the demand and end up paying less for Umberger, and get the #2 pick, than he would otherwise had he signed him prior to June 1/July 1.

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05-17-2004, 11:48 AM
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I agree with Fletch... I hope they sign him within the next few months. He's still a long-term project, but he could be as good, maybe better than Jessiman.

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05-17-2004, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
The game is let him become UFA, where Sather may think there will be demand, but not for the price he's asking
I do wonder what has happened to Umberger's value. Other GM's must be thinking, here's a guy that 2 organizations have taken a long look at and decided to pass on. He'll be asking UFA suitors to make a far less educated choice than Sather and Burke did, yet still pay a premium. That doesn't sound like a very appealing package to me.

In the end, it probably won't matter. RJ all but announced he was going to sign with Pittsburgh during his workouts with the 'Pack. I just can't wait to see if he Craig Patrick have the same "hometown discount" in mind when it comes down to negotiations though.

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05-17-2004, 12:36 PM
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That would be interesting, MJ...

but, would RJ go to PITT if the Rangers were offering $100K more? You know PITT ain't coming near $1 million per for him (I shouldn't say know, but it's safe to assume). Further, while PITT ain't home, Jagr is here, and I'm sure the kid would relish at the opportunity to play with the hometown favorite.

I honestly don't know where this one's headed. I can't say (and nobody can) what Sather's thinking. I'm sure Sather would like to add youth depth at center, but may not want to do it for $1+ million (again, approximately the salary of Lundmark). This is almost as intriguiging as having 6 picks in the first two rounds.

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05-17-2004, 02:56 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
I agree with Fletch... I hope they sign him within the next few months. He's still a long-term project, but he could be as good, maybe better than Jessiman.
Actually the RJ Umberger deadline is June 1,two weeks from tomorrow.

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05-17-2004, 03:11 PM
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Umberger vs 2nd Round Pick

At this point I would rather have Umberger versus a 2nd round pick in this year's draft. You know what you are getting in him. Unless Sather plans to use that 2nd round pick and deal it with a player or TOR's 1st rounder to move up a bit for someone like Picard...

Personally, I'd rather take Umberger right now and see what he could do.

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05-17-2004, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Actually the RJ Umberger deadline is June 1,two weeks from tomorrow.
Oh. Thanks for letting me know. That changes my ideas quite a bit...

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05-17-2004, 03:19 PM
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It all depends on what he thinks he's going to do with the pick. If he's going to just take the pick and use it, then I'd be more in favor of just signing Umberger...if however he plans on using the extra pick to move it with others, then let him go for the #2.

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05-17-2004, 04:02 PM
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What really turned me off was when Umberger started talking about "hometown discount" while being a Ranger property. At this point I rather take a chance on a #46 pick and get somebody like Berti or Meidl or Dubinsky. Another minus to Umberger is that he missed a whole year of hockey. But I wouldn't mind getting the pick and then trying to ink him.

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05-17-2004, 07:47 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
At this point I rather take a chance on a #46 pick
This is getting ridiculous. The #46 pick over a kid that has NHL-ready size and top 2 line potential? Come on.
People, what do the Rangers lack (amongst other things)? Top 2 line talent. What is RJ? Top 2 line talent. The math seems pretty simple to me.

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05-17-2004, 08:00 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
This is getting ridiculous. The #46 pick over a kid that has NHL-ready size and top 2 line potential? Come on.
People, what do the Rangers lack (amongst other things)? Top 2 line talent. What is RJ? Top 2 line talent. The math seems pretty simple to me.
3 things:

1) he is not 18, he is already around 22 years old
2) he missed a whole year, mostly because of his greed and stubborness
3) doesn't have a very good attitude and must have some flaws in his game for Burke to lowball him

at #46 we can come away with a promising young player who is 3 or 4 years younger then Umberger. If Umberger want to be a Ranger , then he will sign up anyway, but most likely he wants to be a Penguin, we will be fine without him. Marek can be used as a temporary 2nd line center for a year or 2. Has anybody seen Umberger play, what is your impression of him?

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05-17-2004, 08:01 PM
  #13
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The one thing the rangers can do is out bid any team out there. He wont go to another big market team vs rangers because rangers will give him more opportunity to get NHL ice time. Pittsburgh wont have the $$. They are going to draft Malkin.
The IIHF agreement with the NHL has expired so the Penguins are going to have to cut a deal with the Russian team Malkin is under contract to. Plus they will have to pay Malkin. This wont leave enough money to compete with the Rangers. The Capitals will do the same thing with Ovechkin. I wouldnt be suprised if Sather and Brian Lawton already have a deal in place and are waiting for June 2 so the Rangers can get the pick. Umberger will be a Ranger. Nick Fotiu saw him in practice and said he was special and then backtracked so he wouldnt hurt the negotiations.
I believe there will be a lockout for at least a 1/2 a season which will give Umberger ample time to get the rust out of his game.

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Old
05-17-2004, 08:05 PM
  #14
Park #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaris
will he sign?
Does management wants him?
From my understanding (and let me tell you - information on this is very difficult to come by - I've barely heard a peep), I think Sather is going to take the pick and make a rather modest offer to Umberger/Lawton and take their chances of losing him. He'll go to Pittsburgh. In the end, Umberger will get $800,000 per to play with his hometown team. To do so, he will have stunted his growth by 2 years.

The team didn't see everthing they would have liked out of him - including a desire to get signed and playing. That said, I like Umberger as a player - but I know there was disappointment with him when they brought him in for a look see. Several people think he's a complete cement head.

If they indeed feel that way - you can understand why they wouldn't want to make a large financial commitment to him. Even as someone who has seen him, knows him fairly well, and still likes his abilities - I have to question myself if indeed two diametrically opposed teams agree on him.

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Old
05-17-2004, 08:54 PM
  #15
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[QUOTE=Park #2]The team didn't see everthing they would have liked out of him - including a desire to get signed and playing. That said, I like Umberger as a player - but I know there was disappointment with him when they brought him in for a look see. Several people think he's a complete cement head.

QUOTE]

That about sums it up. I think he's going to be surprised when he hits the market. A friend of mine actually saw him play and I remember his words exactly "He's a porsche with a V-2 under the hood".

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Old
05-17-2004, 08:59 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
A friend of mine actually saw him play and I remember his words exactly "He's a porsche with a V-2 under the hood".
Ouch

I think you'd see the effort once he's under contract and set with a team, but that's not the way to go about getting there.

Another Brendl in the making?

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Old
05-17-2004, 09:28 PM
  #17
Edge
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Originally Posted by Theo Fan
Ouch

I think you'd see the effort once he's under contract and set with a team, but that's not the way to go about getting there.

Another Brendl in the making?
Entirely possible but after missing a year and a half you gotta make stides to get into the pro game. Now if there is a lockout, he misses two years. Not a smart move at all. In the end it seemed his only interest was to go home with some money in is pocket whch he will, but I have serious doubts he'll be a real player now.

Ironic that his agent was another guy who during his playing days was a cement head as well. Some players despite all their skill just don't have the head on their shoulders to make. They just don't have the strength mentally to be better than they are. Lawton was that way and honestly Umberger could follow in his footsteps.

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05-17-2004, 09:43 PM
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this is nothing more than a gut-feeling but i think sather's plan from day 1 has been to let umberger become a UFA to get the draft pick and then try to sign him after june 1st taking advantage of a loophole...

the only question is whether umberger & his agent are in on the deal and plan to sign with the rangers after june 1st, or if sather is just being arrogant and betting on the fact that no team will give him the rookie max and therefore he feels he can top any offer later while still paying less than they are asking for now

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Old
05-17-2004, 10:10 PM
  #19
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on this one I do know for a fact that the plan was to sign him ASAP and get him to hartford, but the minute he stepped on the ice that all changed. Umberger looked like he didnt want to be out there and to put it mildly, stunk.

at this point there are now two teams who have seen serious flaws in his game and his head and i'd be surprised if he ended up anywhere but Pitts. for the only a little more than he was offered initially and with 1 maybe 2 years lost.

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05-17-2004, 10:11 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR469
this is nothing more than a gut-feeling but i think sather's plan from day 1 has been to let umberger become a UFA to get the draft pick and then try to sign him after june 1st taking advantage of a loophole...

the only question is whether umberger & his agent are in on the deal and plan to sign with the rangers after june 1st, or if sather is just being arrogant and betting on the fact that no team will give him the rookie max and therefore he feels he can top any offer later while still paying less than they are asking for now
Thats pretty much what I've been thinking. Sather has always been one to try to find loopholes around a situation in order make himself seem smarter. Why would this be an exception?

And I'll go with the latter of the two possibilities. I doubt he and his agent have already struck a secret deal and are planning to sign it on June 2nd. Too suspicious, especially considering Sather almost got burned by the NHL a couple of years ago for illegally contacting Mike Keenan when he was in contract with Florida. In the end, I think the whole Umberger stand-off has soured his value to the point where even Pittsburgh will not be able to give him close to the money he thinks he deserves. Hopefully eventually he comes to his senses and takes the initial Rangers offer, settles in Hartford next season and eventually gets some looks with the Rangers towards the end of the year.

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Old
05-18-2004, 08:33 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
3 things:

1) he is not 18, he is already around 22 years old
2) he missed a whole year, mostly because of his greed and stubborness
3) doesn't have a very good attitude and must have some flaws in his game for Burke to lowball him

at #46 we can come away with a promising young player who is 3 or 4 years younger then Umberger. If Umberger want to be a Ranger , then he will sign up anyway, but most likely he wants to be a Penguin, we will be fine without him. Marek can be used as a temporary 2nd line center for a year or 2. Has anybody seen Umberger play, what is your impression of him?
1. 22 is not 32. Last I checked, 22 was still fairly young.
2. Greed & stubborness? So he wanted to get the most bang for his buck. Much like any other person in the free world.
3. Why must he have serious flaws to be lowballed by Burke? Apparently, Burke thought enough of his game to draft him 16th overall.
The chances of picking a player with better potential than Umberger at #46 is low. Sure we will be fine w/o him. Just like we're fine without Ovechkin or any other kid or possible draft choice. The kid clearly has a good combination of size and talent. And in an organization that has a dearth of high-end prospect, I do not see the wisdom of letting him go.

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Old
05-18-2004, 10:09 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR469
this is nothing more than a gut-feeling but i think sather's plan from day 1 has been to let umberger become a UFA to get the draft pick and then try to sign him after june 1st taking advantage of a loophole...

the only question is whether umberger & his agent are in on the deal and plan to sign with the rangers after june 1st, or if sather is just being arrogant and betting on the fact that no team will give him the rookie max and therefore he feels he can top any offer later while still paying less than they are asking for now
As I posted within hours of the trade, the NYR had every intention of getting this guy playing. They started to question that within 48-72 hours of the trade. If the team does have concerns that they feel are legitimate, you cannot argue with the strategy here.... Caving into a contract demand from a player you feel has serious flaws sets horrible precedent. I've seen the arguements on this board, "Well, if they can give Karpa/Ulanov/Kamensky/etc millions, surely this kid they can splurge on..." Well, with the Collective Bargaining coming up, you don't want to continue a bad trend on a player you feel has flaws.

I watched RJ 10 times last he played for Ohio State and I liked him. I've met with him a few times during that period, and I have no problems with him and liked his game. That said, if two teams completely agree - you have to wonder where the problem lies here.

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