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Rank offensive defencemen

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Old
06-08-2010, 10:56 AM
  #26
tarheelhockey
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Just curious, looking at windows of 2-3 years, where would Mike Green rank?

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06-08-2010, 11:32 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Just curious, looking at windows of 2-3 years, where would Mike Green rank?
Pretty high in pure offense.

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Old
06-08-2010, 07:43 PM
  #28
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I doubt Housley would be top 10. He was well behind Bourque, MacInnis, and Leetch just in his own era.

My list would be something like:

1) Orr
2) Coffey
3) Shore
4) Kelly
5) Bourque
6) Clancy
7) MacInnis
8) Potvin
9) Leetch

I'm not sure about #10 - it's probably between Pilote, Gadsby, and Robinson. Maybe Harry Cameron.

Harvey is one of the best PP QBs of all time, but he didn't really put up much offense at even strength, I don't think.

I realize it is mostly post-Orr defensemen, but I don't have a problem with that given how Orr changed the way the position was played.
There are only 3 Dmen in NHL history to score more goals than Housley's 338:

Bourque - 410
Coffey -396
MacInnis - 340

Housley is also the only Dman in history to have 6 consecutive 20 goal seasons. It would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he'd of had if he spent his career playing on the teams Coffey did.

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Old
06-08-2010, 10:06 PM
  #29
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1. Paul Coffey
2. Bobby Orr
3. Raymond Bourque
4. Brian Leetch
5. Phil Housley
6. Al Mcinnis

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Old
06-08-2010, 10:30 PM
  #30
RabbinsDuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
There are only 3 Dmen in NHL history to score more goals than Housley's 338:

Bourque - 410
Coffey -396
MacInnis - 340

Housley is also the only Dman in history to have 6 consecutive 20 goal seasons. It would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he'd of had if he spent his career playing on the teams Coffey did.
Still puts him 4th, at best, in his era. With other eras factored in I don't think he makes top 10. Great offensive player though.

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06-08-2010, 11:01 PM
  #31
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
There are only 3 Dmen in NHL history to score more goals than Housley's 338:

Bourque - 410
Coffey -396
MacInnis - 340

Housley is also the only Dman in history to have 6 consecutive 20 goal seasons. It would have been interesting to see what kind of offensive numbers he'd of had if he spent his career playing on the teams Coffey did.
How many of Housley's 338 goal were scored as a forward though? I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but I believe Housely played a considerable number of games as a winger rather than a d-man.

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Old
06-09-2010, 01:15 AM
  #32
steve141
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
How many of Housley's 338 goal were scored as a forward though? I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread yet, but I believe Housely played a considerable number of games as a winger rather than a d-man.
Hard to say. This page says he got 68 forward points between the 84 and 86 seasons, which is about a third of his total. It also implies that of his 31 goals scored in 1984, only 24 were as a defenceman. Still very good numbers though.

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Old
06-09-2010, 03:37 AM
  #33
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Still puts him 4th, at best, in his era. With other eras factored in I don't think he makes top 10. Great offensive player though.
5th at best. Housley was clearly behind Coffey, Bourque, MacInnis, and Leetch in his own era in terms of offense alone.

'

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Old
06-09-2010, 04:35 AM
  #34
Marotte Marauder
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Doug Wilson's career stats compare VERY favorably to Al MacInnis and Brian Leetch IMO and he usually played on weaker teams.

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Old
06-09-2010, 07:08 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Doug Wilson's career stats compare VERY favorably to Al MacInnis and Brian Leetch IMO and he usually played on weaker teams.
I don't see how any comparison between them is "VERY favorably" to Wilson. Even comparing just goals with Leetch and Wilson, I'd drop the very.

When saying Wilson played on weaker teams, are we forgetting about the dead puck era Rangers?

Leetch and MacInnis both played through the dead puck era and Wilson would still have to duplicate his best season multiple times to catch them in career point totals.

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Old
06-09-2010, 10:00 AM
  #36
Marotte Marauder
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I don't see how any comparison between them is "VERY favorably" to Wilson. Even comparing just goals with Leetch and Wilson, I'd drop the very.

When saying Wilson played on weaker teams, are we forgetting about the dead puck era Rangers?

Leetch and MacInnis both played through the dead puck era and Wilson would still have to duplicate his best season multiple times to catch them in career point totals.
Wilson 1024 games .23 gpa .81 ppg
Leetch 1205 games .20 gpa .85 ppg
Al Mac 1416 games .24 gpa .90 ppg

So, based on an 80 game season:

Wilson 18 goals 65 pts.
Leetch 16 goals 68 pts.
Al Mac 19 goals 72 pts.

I'd say, they are VERY comparable.

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Old
06-09-2010, 12:01 PM
  #37
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Wilson 1024 games .23 gpa .81 ppg
Leetch 1205 games .20 gpa .85 ppg
Al Mac 1416 games .24 gpa .90 ppg

So, based on an 80 game season:

Wilson 18 goals 65 pts.
Leetch 16 goals 68 pts.
Al Mac 19 goals 72 pts.

I'd say, they are VERY comparable.
Your numbers demonstrate that Doug Wilson is not in Leetch and MacInnis' league offensively. First, using rough point totals year by year or point rankings doesn't help him since he was often injured, so you used per-game averages. Which is fine, but it should be noted that Leetch and MacInnis were more durable and played many of those games Wilson missed. Secondly, They played further into their declining years (Leetch, 200+ GP, MacInnis 400+ GP) which puts them at a disadvantage as far as their career PPG averages are concerned - yet, they still came out ahead. Finally, and most importantly, Wilson played through the entire 1980s. MacInnis played half of the 1980s. Leetch, essentially, did not play in the 1980s. The 1980s featured higher scoring levels that make it inherently easier to post a higher PPG average. Another advantage in Wilson's favour that he did not parlay into a higher average than Leetch and MacInnis. They win this comparison in a slam dunk.

I would put MacInnis in the top-10 for sure, Leetch possibly 10th-13th, and Wilson would have a hard time getting in the top-20.

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Old
06-09-2010, 05:49 PM
  #38
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
5th at best. Housley was clearly behind Coffey, Bourque, MacInnis, and Leetch in his own era in terms of offense alone.

'
How is Leetch "clearly better" offensively than Housley when he scored nearly 100 goals less (a staggering number for defensemen)?

I'm not saying Housley was better than any of those players, but he's certainly on the same level offensively.

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Old
06-09-2010, 06:43 PM
  #39
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
How is Leetch "clearly better" offensively than Housley when he scored nearly 100 goals less (a staggering number for defensemen)?

I'm not saying Housley was better than any of those players, but he's certainly on the same level offensively.
Not necessarily. How many were as a forward? And how many did he score once adjusted for era?

hockey-reference.com says Housley scored 336 adjusted goals in 1495 games. Leetch had 274 in 1205 games. That's 0.22 and 0.22 for adjusted per-game averages.

Leetch had 5 seasons with 87+ adjusted points. Housley's peak was 85.

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Old
06-09-2010, 06:58 PM
  #40
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Not necessarily. How many were as a forward? And how many did he score once adjusted for era?

hockey-reference.com says Housley scored 336 adjusted goals in 1495 games. Leetch had 274 in 1205 games. That's 0.22 and 0.22 for adjusted per-game averages.

Leetch had 5 seasons with 87+ adjusted points. Housley's peak was 85.
So that makes Leetch clearly better? Sounds fairly comprable to me.

According to one of the previous article links here, Housley played forward early on in his career with Buffalo. His 6 consecutive seasons of 20+ goals was after that and when Leetch was in the league.

My point wasn't that Housley was better than Leetch offensively. But he was ceratinly in the same ballpark as Leetch. Having been a Whalers season ticket holder for all of Housley's years in Buffalo, I got to see quite a bit of him in person. He was a hell of an offensive player. Much like Leetch in that he could make passes while at top speed as well as blow right by guys with a single move.

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Old
06-09-2010, 07:41 PM
  #41
TheDevilMadeMe
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I think Leetch has a small but clear edge in offensive peak over Housley. The adjusted numbers show this.

What makes the gap even bigger is the playoffs: Leetch had 97 points in 95 playoff games; Housley had 56 points in 85 career playoff game. Housley also had no playoff seasons as impressive as Leetch's 1992 or 1994.

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Old
06-10-2010, 05:26 AM
  #42
BM67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Wilson 1024 games .23 gpa .81 ppg
Leetch 1205 games .20 gpa .85 ppg
Al Mac 1416 games .24 gpa .90 ppg

So, based on an 80 game season:

Wilson 18 goals 65 pts.
Leetch 16 goals 68 pts.
Al Mac 19 goals 72 pts.

I'd say, they are VERY comparable.
There's a world of difference between VERY comparable and compares VERY favorably. Your statement implies that Wilson should be coming out ahead in the comparison. He doesn't.

Leetch played 181 more games and scored 201 more points, for a ppg of 1.11. Wilson put up a ppg rate of 1.11 or higher twice, and only scored over a ppg in 3 seasons for a total of 190 points in 173 games. So even adding those 3 years to Wilson's career record he comes in behind Leetch in GP, Pts and PPG, and that's before you attempt any kind of adjustment for overall scoring which would widen the gap in Leetch's favor.

MacInnis played 392 more games and scored 447 more points, for 1.14 ppg. So the gap is over half of Wilson's career total at a pace which he matched only once in a season where he only played 27 games.

Here they are compared in my Vs. #2 numbers.

PlayerTGHGH3GCAGTAHAH3ACAATPHPH3PCAP
Brian Leetch4.7830.4071.0150.26610.4920.9202.2940.5838.9810.8291.9350.499
Al MacInnis6.2890.5491.3710.27311.8680.8332.2270.51610.6020.7862.1100.461
Doug Wilson3.8990.6091.1140.2446.7850.6431.7590.4246.1740.5781.5950.386

Here they are compared to only the other defensemen each year.

PlayerTGHGH3GCAGTAHAH3ACAATPHPH3PCAP
Brian Leetch11.9861.1052.6450.66614.3521.2893.3320.79714.4481.1863.1370.803
Al MacInnis15.2831.1673.0760.66416.1521.0612.9320.70216.7731.0963.0820.729
Doug Wilson 9.2441.3452.6070.5789.4740.8752.3470.59210.0561.0002.5910.629

Wilson's 39 goal season stands out but otherwise he doesn't lead in any other category, and trails in almost all.

Certainly Wilson comes into the discussion for a top 20 or so spot, but he's not really a top 10 contender.

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Old
06-10-2010, 09:37 PM
  #43
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Good to see Flash Hollett mentioned.

Did he have career records for dmen when he retired? (goals, points). I know he had more then Shore.

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06-11-2010, 05:59 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Leetch has a small but clear edge in offensive peak over Housley. The adjusted numbers show this.

What makes the gap even bigger is the playoffs: Leetch had 97 points in 95 playoff games; Housley had 56 points in 85 career playoff game. Housley also had no playoff seasons as impressive as Leetch's 1992 or 1994.
Housley had no playoff seasons that were impressive period
He personally wet the bed in almost every playoff. Embarrassing to watch sometimes.

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Old
06-11-2010, 07:20 AM
  #45
Canadiens1958
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Offensive Defensemen

A key factor has been overlooked in the discussion to date. Going beyond the numbers, one of the critical considerations is the shut down factor.

Could the defenseman in question be limited offensively by the opposition?

Defensemen like Phil Housley were relatively easy to shut down with a bit of pressure or additional demands on their defensive game.

Such an approach would not work with Bobby Orr, Doug Harvey, Paul Coffey, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque amongst others.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 06-11-2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: addition
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Old
06-11-2010, 09:05 AM
  #46
Psycho Papa Joe
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In terms of guys who I saw play:

Coffey
Potvin
Bourque
Leetch
Park
Macinnis
Lidstrom
Housley
Salming
Robinson

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Old
06-11-2010, 10:59 AM
  #47
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I'm pretty much in agreement with everyone.

I'm kinda confused about the knocks on Housely. He played in the Aud, people. Very small ice surface, yet the guy was the best (outside of Coffey) at creating space, opening the ice up and picking apart defenses.

From a purely "offensive" standpoint, Housely needs to get more love. I often wondered what kind of numbers he would have put up with run-and-gun 1980s offenses like in Edmonton, Pittsburgh and Calgary. In fact, the one time he was in such a program, he had a Norris-caliber season with the Jets in 1993.

I had his Bauer skates, so I'm a little partial.

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Old
06-11-2010, 05:42 PM
  #48
Dennis Bonvie
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Housley had no playoff seasons that were impressive period
He personally wet the bed in almost every playoff. Embarrassing to watch sometimes.
Housley never played on a team that was really good. Not really fair to compare his playoff numbers with guys that played on much better teams, which is just about everyone discussed here.

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Old
06-11-2010, 05:52 PM
  #49
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
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Housley never played on a team that was really good. Not really fair to compare his playoff numbers with guys that played on much better teams, which is just about everyone discussed here.
Well, part of the reason that Housley's teams were never that great is that he was absolutely atrocious in his own zone.

Still though, his playoff offensive numbers are well behind Leetch, even if you remove Housley's long run with Washington when he was past his prime.

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Old
06-12-2010, 08:39 PM
  #50
Dennis Bonvie
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Well, part of the reason that Housley's teams were never that great is that he was absolutely atrocious in his own zone.

Still though, his playoff offensive numbers are well behind Leetch, even if you remove Housley's long run with Washington when he was past his prime.
This is absolutely true.

But that is not what we are comparing.

Housley's teams made the playoffs 13 times and 11 of those times they went out in the first round. All I'm saying is its pretty difficult for a defenseman to put up good offensive numbers when he's always playing on a losing team. Which Housley was doing in the playoffs.

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