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Hurricanes to move to the #2 spot in the draft?

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Old
06-10-2010, 04:46 PM
  #26
Sasha Cares
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totalkev View Post
Yeah, yeah. I know we've had three deep playoff runs, and as a former Whalers fan, I really do appreciate it. I was there for Game 7 in 2006 and I got to see my team lift the Cup. Not many fans can say that, and I will be forever grateful.

But we've also missed the playoffs five of the past seven seasons since the 2002 run to the Final. Our scouting budget is embarrassing. We cheaped out and split an AHL team for many years. We nickel and dime our guys during their productive RFA years, only to overpay them massively once they reach UFA status and their production declines.

Many of the problems leading to these bad seasons were easily preventable by a GM who understands the nature of building a team. The worst thing to me about these struggles is that Rutherford continues to do the same thing over and over expecting different results. We continue to basically ignore Europe in our scouting, we continue to overpay for veterans, we continue to put up with a losing coach, we continue to giftwrap important minutes to vets and we continue to give few prospects legitimate chances to play in key situations on top lines.

IT DOESN'T WORK!!

Once is a mistake, twice is bad, three times is inexcusable. But three times, Rutherford has brought back a veteran team after a long playoff run, and three times they have finished at the bottom of the league.

Now, all signs point to a similar offseason, filled with the inability of JR to do anything to address the team's obvious weaknesses.

You can agree or not, but it shouldn't be that hard to make the playoffs. It shouldn't be that hard to *return* to the playoffs after reaching the Eastern Conference Final, yet we're 0-for-3 in that situation, once managing to finish DEAD LAST (and it was *NOT* on Peter Laviolette's watch that that particular disater occurred, Mr. Karmanos).

So you can point at the budget, or you can point at three successful seasons, but none of it changes the fact that I don't personally feel that Rutherford is doing what he should be doing to get us to the point of consistently make playoff appearances. He's created a "country-club" atmosphere around the entire organization, which extends to the obvious nepotism in the front office (Jason Karmanos as the asst. GM despite quitting at one point), the obliviousness to the laughingstock that is Tripp Tracy, and the desire to continue to pay former players (Francis, Wesley, Barrasso, Rowe, Daniels, Brindy sure to come later -- to that point that we have more assistant coaches and associate coaches than any team in the league).

We could save Karmanos millions if we got down to a head coach and two assistants like every other team in the league. We could save millions if we scouted better. We could save millions by not giving ridiculous contracts to fan favorites who clearly don't have it anymore.

My fear is that JR is going to sign Whitney, once the UFA period starts slowly for Ray (see Cole, Erik and LaRose, Chad). I fear that JR will start the season with Brind'Amour in the lineup (and poisoning the locker room). I fear that whichever youngsters are lucky enough to break camp with the team will be relegated to third- and fourth-line duty while Cole scores two goals on Staal's right wing in the first three months of the season.

Sorry, but I'm not pessimistic for the sake of being pessimistic. I'm down because I'm tired of sitting here watching this team go down the same road time after time. I think it looks like we're headed there again. If you don't think so, then I think you're being overly optimistic. To each his own.
I agree with all of this...


JR's only strength seems to be in trades... His offseason signing are ATROCIOUS and among the worst in the entire league... Overpaying bad players, letting valuable pieces walk over dumb ****, NTC's, etc etc etc...

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06-10-2010, 10:39 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
I agree with all of this...


JR's only strength seems to be in trades... His offseason signing are ATROCIOUS and among the worst in the entire league... Overpaying bad players, letting valuable pieces walk over dumb ****, NTC's, etc etc etc...
This is a bit extreme. Worst in the league? 3.55 and a ntc for one of our leading scorers isn't that bad. This isn't Wade Redden or Sean Avery with the stars. one of the worst in the league is a stretch

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06-10-2010, 10:52 PM
  #28
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Huge JR fan here. I will concede that his loyalty has been as problematic as it has been beneficial for us at best. With that said, JR is the master of building a quick hitter team for deep runs because of his affinity for veteran talent. The longer term problem of building a perpetually competitive team has been quite evasive. Those claiming that he has no talent for team building couldn't be more off the mark. He has assembled some teams that have done some really great things and his moves directly after the lockout were masterful if not damn near prophetic. JR invested into Matt Cullen, Martin Gerber, Mike Commodore, Cory Stillman, Ray Whitney, and Frank Kaberle when nobody wanted them as badly as we did.

Yes, the up and down nature of this team is bothersome.... but it isn't as bothersome to me as multiple flameouts in the playoffs. When we make it we make it deep. I would rather have it that way than the other way around of making it every year and going out in the first or second round.

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06-11-2010, 06:49 AM
  #29
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane_SVT View Post
His offseason signing are ATROCIOUS and among the worst in the entire league... Overpaying bad players, letting valuable pieces walk over dumb ****, NTC's, etc etc etc...
I understand what you are saying..but I don't think it is that black and white.

I won't go way back..but rather look since the lockout:

Good/Decent offseason signings (not re-signed Canes):

Stillmann
Commodore
Cullen
Kaberle (the first time)
Gerber
Walker
Alberts
Kostopoulos

Bad
Tverdosky
Tanabe
Letowski
Hamilton
Graham
Yelle

Valuable Pieces he "let walk":
Cullen (debatable)
Seidenburg
Babchuk
Maybe Aaron Ward after 05/06..but I'm not convinced of that.

Truly Bad contracts?

Brind'Amour (hind sight..but MANY people on here defended it because of Brindy's great worth ethic back at the time)
Cole: (although only 2 years so to be fair the 2nd year should be played out)
Tverdovsky (already covered above)
Kaberle (already covered above)
Samsonov (only because it was 3 years, but after the first 1/2 year he spent with the Canes, most were saying re-sign him.

I don't think Whitney's contract was all that bad. Yes..the NTC clause came back to bite him..but I think Ray lived up to his contract (even though many don't like the way he plays). There are a lot of other good contracts that we just seem to ignore as well.

I'm not a big JR fan as I don't like the inconsistency, but I would not classify his offseason signings as Atrocious. He has some financial restraints that some big market GMs don't. The Canes will never make a huge splash in the UFA market. They will either build from within (Sutter, Staal, Ward), pick up key pieces via trade (Williams, Gleason, Pitkanen, Ruutu) or take a chance on cheaper UFAs / reclamation projects that can contribute and fit in (Stillman, Jokinen, Cullen).

I think the next few years is going to be some uncharted territory for many of us. A team that will truely be built from within so to speak (and full of young talent): Staal, Ward, Sutter, McBain, Carson, Dalpe, Boychuk, Bowman, etc..

Not this offseason, but the next 2 is how I will judge JR. IMO, he has the talent in place (and some of them in their prime) where he can add a few pieces and make the Canes a contender for years to come. Let's hope he takes advantage of this.

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06-11-2010, 07:21 AM
  #30
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meh, I wouldn't even classify Yelle as bad. He just kindof was there never really standing out either way to me. But yeah, the problem with JR that I've noticed isn't so much in the players he acquires from the outside (almost all GMs have their fair share of Grahame-esque busts) but the way he deals in negotiations to retain what we already have. He's willing to badly overpay guys that are fan favorites (Cole, LaRose) or sign guys that had brief stints of success here to contracts longer then would be justified (Samsonov).

It's rare that he'll make a signing from outside the organization that is truly horrendous. Only big one I can think of is Tverdovsky, although the Ozolinsh trade and sign was pretty bad too.

I'll post a bit of a JR +/- list in a bit.

Positives:

- good at finding hidden gems on other teams or in the AHL (Gerber, Commodore, Jokinen, Seidenberg, Cullen the first time)
- among the best in the league at managing the cap
- good at assembling teams capable of deep post-season runs
- rarely throws a horrible contract at a UFA
- very well respected and influential within the NHL managemnt circles
- good at establishing loyalty from players that have played for the organization
- has formed a pretty good scouting staff and seems to finally be allowing prospects to really develop here

Negatives:

- slow to address pressing team needs (took a season and a half to acquire Corvo when a PMD was our biggest need)
- over-reliance on vets
- overpayment of players already in the organization
- typically never really leaves roster spots open to encourage competition on the roster in training camp (the years we've had that we've done well)
- never seems to be able to assemble a team capable of making the playoffs on a consistent basis
- typically trades away picks resulting in lack of organizational depth
- rushing the development of early round picks (see: Ladd, Andrew; Tanabe, David)


Last edited by DaveG: 06-11-2010 at 07:42 AM.
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06-11-2010, 08:05 AM
  #31
Boom Boom Anton
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Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
He's willing to badly overpay guys that are fan favorites (Cole, LaRose) or sign guys that had brief stints of success here to contracts longer then would be justified (Samsonov).
True in general.....although I'm not as hung up on LaRose's contract as some are. Injuries hit him last year..but "if" he had played a full season, he would have surpassed his "career" year in points.

2007: .225 PPG ;
2008: .39 PPG;
2009: .38 PPG (career high 19 goals)
2010: .50 PPG (career high 17 assists in 56 games).

He has pretty much improved his game every year. Do I think he is an answer for a day in / day out top 6 forward...No, I don't. I think he is a very solid 3rd line player who can take some spot duty on the 2nd or 1st line when injuries occur and is a good PKer and good team guy. I personally don't think a 2 year deal averaging $1.7M is too out of line for a guy like that. If it is, it is only a couple hundred thousand high..but not that bad.

Cole..I agree on though...$3M for 2 years after his playoff performance, injury history and time in Edmonton was out of line. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt though and judge the contract after the 2nd year is complete. Samsonov I agree on also. After is time in Montreal and Chicago, there could not have been many interested parties. I can't see why JR gave him a 3 year deal.

Quote:

I'll post a bit of a JR +/- list in a bit.

Positives:

- good at finding hidden gems on other teams or in the AHL (Gerber, Commodore, Jokinen, Seidenberg, Cullen the first time)
- among the best in the league at managing the cap
- good at assembling teams capable of deep post-season runs
- rarely throws a horrible contract at a UFA
- very well respected and influential within the NHL managemnt circles
- good at establishing loyalty from players that have played for the organization
- has formed a pretty good scouting staff and seems to finally be allowing prospects to really develop here

Negatives:

- slow to address pressing team needs (took a season and a half to acquire Corvo when a PMD was our biggest need)
- over-reliance on vets
- overpayment of players already in the organization
- typically never really leaves roster spots open to encourage competition on the roster in training camp (the years we've had that we've done well)
- never seems to be able to assemble a team capable of making the playoffs on a consistent basis
- typically trades away picks resulting in lack of organizational depth
- rushing the development of early round picks (see: Ladd, Andrew; Tanabe, David)
That's a fair assessment.

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06-11-2010, 08:11 AM
  #32
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yeah I definitely want to see what LaRose does next year before saying it's without a doubt a terrible contract, but I do think it's overpayment by somewhere between half a million and a quarter million for what he brings in terms of skillset. Not a killer in itself but when you get numerous contracts like that piling up (Wallin was another one, just came to mind) it becomes overwhelming.

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06-11-2010, 09:29 AM
  #33
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Sounds like someone is a masochist.
You'll never hear me deny that.

And to be clear, I'm not one of those guys who feels we *should* throw money at UFAs. The nature of the beast is that those guys *will* be at least slightly overpaid because of the pure competition for their services and the fact that there is no compensation in terms of assets. So if you're looking for a first-line forward or a stud shutdown d-man in the UFA market, you're going to be disappointed (ask Toronto about Jeff Finger or Mike Komisarek, but the list goes on and on and is not just limited to the boneheaded Cliff Fletcher). I think JR knows this, and I don't really worry about us making a mistake here.

I'm also not in crazy agreement that JR is good at managing the cap. For the most part, the cap has never been an issue, since he works within a team-imposed budget. Of course, he almost always gets permission to exceed that budget (in good times *or* bad, not just in playoff years), and last year, he got himself to the point that a couple of injuries had us *right against the cap* despite absolutely sucking. To me, having to dress 19 guys because we can't afford to call up a kid from the AHL is horrible mismanagement, and JR would have taken a well-deserved beating in just about any market other than Raleigh for it. I don't have a lot of faith in JR being creative enough to dump some of our bad contracts in order to get down to $44 million and allow the kids to play. It's just not in his DNA.

As for Yelle, yeah, he wasn't horrible, but the truly horrible part of his signing wasn't the player we got. It was that the signing filled the spot that Brandon Sutter *clearly* deserved. It's one thing to sign a stop-gap veteran for a kid who needs some more time, it's quite another to waste money when you have a more-talented, NHL-ready internal option (this is also why I'm firmly in the Peters over Legace battle for backup goalie). Signing Yelle was a horrible decision and I can see it happening again. And again. And again. JR just can't help himself. (If he signs Legace, I'll flip out.)

The Cole contract was ridiculous on so many levels it's hard to rationalize it at all. First of all, it was crystal clear to 29 other teams that Cole offered nothing to any team other than Carolina. I can't imagine that he got a single offer from any team in the league who saw the games he played for Edmonton. The bottom line, if we're being honest, is that the guy hasn't been the same player since his neck injury, and his signing served absolutely no purpose for us (aside from the preposterous notion that our franchise player somehow *needs* him). To negotiate against ourselves to the point of giving this guy $6 million and TWO years is indefensible.

In the end, I simply have *no confidence* in JR and PM as rebuilders. I can already sense that they have penciled in six veterans (well, five and Sutter) in our top two lines and the young guys will struggle to get 10 mins a night and an ounce of power play time (aside from McBain). And when I say "penciled in," you know that they're going to force it to the point that it's clearly not working.

JR believes we can win this year (and honestly, I do too), I just don't know if he has it in him to do the right thing.

Dumping Maurice if we're below .500 at the end of November would be a great start.

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06-11-2010, 09:56 AM
  #34
Boom Boom Anton
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yeah I definitely want to see what LaRose does next year before saying it's without a doubt a terrible contract, but I do think it's overpayment by somewhere between half a million and a quarter million for what he brings in terms of skillset. Not a killer in itself but when you get numerous contracts like that piling up (Wallin was another one, just came to mind) it becomes overwhelming.
I'm more in the "maybe 200-250K too high". I just don't think you get a player like LaRose (even though he doesn't have huge skill-set) for 1-1.2M any longer in the NHL. I mean..other than the new guys/call-ups, he was the 2nd lowest paid player on the team at the end of this past year (Kostopoulus is the lowest). Yelle and Alberts were also lower paid when traded. LaRose easily brings more to the table than those 3

Look at some other players across the league with similar style and/or similar (or worse) contributions/results:

Matt Cooke: $1.2M (but comes with some major baggage)
Pasual Dupuis: $1.4M
Max Talbot: $1.1M
Rob Neidermeyer: $1M
Jay Pandolfo: $2.5M
Ian Laperierre: $1.3M
Daniel Paille: $1.35M
Mike Grier: $1.2M
Paul Gaustad: $2.5M
Raffi Torres: $2.8M
Dominic Moore: $1.1M
Chris Kelly: $2.0M
Chris Neil: $2.0M
Jarko Ruutu: $1.3M
Clarke MacArther: $1.4M
Marty Reasoner: $1.1M
Matt Bradley: $1.0M

Etc..etc..

I'm not even a huge fan of LaRose and I also realize there are some contracts that are BETTER deals than LaRose's (for instance..Jussi's looks to be that way), but in this day and age, I think somewhere around $1.5M isn't that far off.

Also, this past year, LaRose's contract/performance wasn't one of the Canes' major problems. Whether due to injury or non-performance, I'd put the following guys ahead of LaRose in the "didn't perform up to his contract" category:

Walker, Samsonov, Cole, A. Ward, Ruutu, Brind'Amour, Corvo (Injury though) were much worse than LaRose vs. their contract. You could even argue that Staal and C. Ward for the first half of the season and Whitney (post trade deadline) were poor vs. their contract.

To me, the guys (other than the mid season callups) that I feel lived up to their contracts and/or expectations this year were Jokinen, Gleason, Pitkanen (somewhat debatable), Sutter, Cullen, Kostopolous, Legace, and maybe Alberts (because of low contract/expectations).

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06-11-2010, 10:05 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by totalkev View Post
In the end, I simply have *no confidence* in JR and PM as rebuilders. I can already sense that they have penciled in six veterans (well, five and Sutter) in our top two lines and the young guys will struggle to get 10 mins a night and an ounce of power play time (aside from McBain). And when I say "penciled in," you know that they're going to force it to the point that it's clearly not working.
That is a valid concern. As I said in one of my previous posts..it is what JR does over the next two off-seasons that will give me a better feel of what he can do in a true re-build mode. Even if they do nothing this off-season, the next 2 off-seasons is a great opportunity:

1) Cole, Samsonov, Brind'Amour contracts are off the books.
2) Guys like Sutter, McBain, Tlusty, Boychuck (and others) will either have a full year of experience OR we'll know that some of them can't cut it.
3) Others (like Dalpe) may be ready to make the move.
4) Much of the "core" will be in their prime (Staal, Ward, Gleason, Ruutu, Jokinen, Pitkanen)
5) We'll have a lot of high draft picks this year to get some guys who can contribute in the next couple of years.

A solid draft and/or key trades/FA signings in the next 2 off-season to augment any holes can make this team a competitive team for years to come. I fully expect them to struggle this season because it is a season of transition. But if they mess it up for 11/12 and 12/13, then I will be very disappointed.


Last edited by Boom Boom Anton: 06-11-2010 at 10:14 AM.
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06-11-2010, 10:19 AM
  #36
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Would any of you guys like to represent Carolina in a mock draft? It's quick one - just the first two rounds...

Here's the link:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=785540

PM me if interested. First come first serve.

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06-11-2010, 11:21 AM
  #37
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The Cole contract was beyond terrible... Any moron with any common sense could have avoided that contract... A guy who was completely useless for about 30 games the season before is just handed $6 million... I mean how did that negotiation happen? Cole's agent walked in, JR says "we're playing hardball and 2 years/ $6 million is all we'll go", Cole's agent passes out and is taken to Rex, wakes up and begs for a pen before this dream is over?

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06-11-2010, 11:29 AM
  #38
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You'll never hear me deny that.

As for Yelle, yeah, he wasn't horrible, but the truly horrible part of his signing wasn't the player we got. It was that the signing filled the spot that Brandon Sutter *clearly* deserved. It's one thing to sign a stop-gap veteran for a kid who needs some more time, it's quite another to waste money when you have a more-talented, NHL-ready internal option (this is also why I'm firmly in the Peters over Legace battle for backup goalie). Signing Yelle was a horrible decision and I can see it happening again. And again. And again. JR just can't help himself. (If he signs Legace, I'll flip out.)
Chopped to this part because you're getting your wish. Rutherford has chosen Peters.

Quote:
"We've told Manny's agent that we will go with Justin," Rutherford said. "It's the right time for Justin in the process of his development. He improved so much last season and dominated in the American Hockey League (with the Albany River Rats).
Right move IMO.

On the Cole portion, I recall Rutherford said last July that Cole and his agent came back to him and said "this was our best offer, and this is what it will take to re-sign" (implying the Canes got a discount from Cole's best offer elsewhere.) Whether they bluffed Rutherford is anyone's guess, but someone throwing $3 million at Cole wouldn't surprise me given some of the other ridiculous contracts thrown around on July 1.

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06-11-2010, 12:27 PM
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Chopped to this part because you're getting your wish. Rutherford has chosen Peters.



Right move IMO.

On the Cole portion, I recall Rutherford said last July that Cole and his agent came back to him and said "this was our best offer, and this is what it will take to re-sign" (implying the Canes got a discount from Cole's best offer elsewhere.) Whether they bluffed Rutherford is anyone's guess, but someone throwing $3 million at Cole wouldn't surprise me given some of the other ridiculous contracts thrown around on July 1.
bwhahahahhahahahahahhahahhah

You think any other team even offered him more than a mil or 1.5? I got some ocean front property in Arizona for you...

If they pulled that BS, we should have said don't let the door hit you

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06-11-2010, 07:02 PM
  #40
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Erik Cole at $2.9M was a bad contract even if other teams were offering $7M/yr. It was painfully obvious that he was a rapidly declining one trick pony who couldn't produce anything in the playoffs. Yet the "Staal needs Cole" lie negated everything else.

LaRose is not overpaid according to "market value", but I contend that a small market team that is already paying market value to a gazillion other players can't afford to pay "market value" for what is ultimately a very average hockey player.

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06-11-2010, 08:59 PM
  #41
Boom Boom Anton
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LaRose is not overpaid according to "market value", but I contend that a small market team that is already paying market value to a gazillion other players can't afford to pay "market value" for what is ultimately a very average hockey player.
that's a fair argument. When put into context with the other contracts the Canes had in place, it is hard to accept that contract. I can buy that.

Again, I am not a big LaRose fan by any means but just don't think his contract is even nearly as atrocious as some of the others JR has given.

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06-11-2010, 09:16 PM
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Chopped to this part because you're getting your wish. Rutherford has chosen Peters.



Right move IMO.
I'm taking a small step back from the ledge now.

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On the Cole portion, I recall Rutherford said last July that Cole and his agent came back to him and said "this was our best offer, and this is what it will take to re-sign" (implying the Canes got a discount from Cole's best offer elsewhere.) Whether they bluffed Rutherford is anyone's guess, but someone throwing $3 million at Cole wouldn't surprise me given some of the other ridiculous contracts thrown around on July 1.
I'm a lot less concerned with the actual salary than a lot of you guys. I don't begrudge the guys from getting what they're getting. The CBA is what it is, and both sides *should* use it to their own best interest. I don't necessarily care if a player plays to the value of his contract. At the end of the day, your entry-level and RFA players are probably going to be underpaid and your veterans who are into their UFA years are going to be overpaid. It's just the way it is.

I worry more about the player. If you have a great player, who makes his teammates better, puts points on the board, kills penalties, puts butts in the seats, and signs autographs until every kid has left the building, you can't pay him too much. He's going to help you no matter how much he makes.

If you have a guy who can't stay in the lineup due to injury, avoids contact when he does play, tries to get cute constantly and never makes the safe play, and makes rookie mistakes time and time again and never seems to learn from them, he's going to hurt no matter how much you pay him (even if it's the league minimum).

To me, LaRose is a plus player. The team is better with him than without him. His salary fits with the budget, so I don't sweat it if he makes a few hundred grand more than maybe he should.

But there was no reason to sign Cole *at any price* because he just doesn't do anything that good players do, and he does a lot of the things that bad players do. Even if he was making 500k, he'd still be overpaid. I feel Whitney's situation this summer is similar. Regardless of the contract details, do we *want* Ray Whitney on the 2010-11 Hurricanes? That's the question we should answer *first*.

So I'd rather not split hairs over a few hundred grand or even a million or two. I want guys who are going to help us win hockey games. What they make individually matters about zero to me. Once the puck drops, I just want to know what you're doing to help your team win hockey games.

BTW, I realize this thread has turned into "Totalkev's manifesto on how to build a hockey team," and I both apologize and thank you for putting up with me.


Last edited by totalkev: 06-11-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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06-12-2010, 04:37 AM
  #43
Sasha Cares
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I'm taking a small step back from the ledge now.



I'm a lot less concerned with the actual salary than a lot of you guys. I don't begrudge the guys from getting what they're getting. The CBA is what it is, and both sides *should* use it to their own best interest. I don't necessarily care if a player plays to the value of his contract. At the end of the day, your entry-level and RFA players are probably going to be underpaid and your veterans who are into their UFA years are going to be overpaid. It's just the way it is.

I worry more about the player. If you have a great player, who makes his teammates better, puts points on the board, kills penalties, puts butts in the seats, and signs autographs until every kid has left the building, you can't pay him too much. He's going to help you no matter how much he makes.

If you have a guy who can't stay in the lineup due to injury, avoids contact when he does play, tries to get cute constantly and never makes the safe play, and makes rookie mistakes time and time again and never seems to learn from them, he's going to hurt no matter how much you pay him (even if it's the league minimum).

To me, LaRose is a plus player. The team is better with him than without him. His salary fits with the budget, so I don't sweat it if he makes a few hundred grand more than maybe he should.

But there was no reason to sign Cole *at any price* because he just doesn't do anything that good players do, and he does a lot of the things that bad players do. Even if he was making 500k, he'd still be overpaid. I feel Whitney's situation this summer is similar. Regardless of the contract details, do we *want* Ray Whitney on the 2010-11 Hurricanes? That's the question we should answer *first*.

So I'd rather not split hairs over a few hundred grand or even a million or two. I want guys who are going to help us win hockey games. What they make individually matters about zero to me. Once the puck drops, I just want to know what you're doing to help your team win hockey games.

BTW, I realize this thread has turned into "Totalkev's manifesto on how to build a hockey team," and I both apologize and thank you for putting up with me.
This is a perfect post... kudos

I agree... Cole at a league minimum is not helpful to this team at all... The guy is bad for the team at any price... Look, he used to be my favorite player, but he is just awful now and has developed so many bad habits that he can't be counted on at all

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06-12-2010, 01:34 PM
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bleedgreen
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the cole contract and situation i think has become the most retarded thing we talk about. erik cole had no bearing on this season. he played 30 games, almost all of them hurt. he more than earned his contract in the past, and one year of suck doesnt equal a massive pay cut. vets get paid as vets and always have. jr pays them too much too often, but cole is one i dont mind. he is too young not to have a chance to come back. his game can be effective in different roles. he isnt overpaid for what he has done in the past and has the potential to bring, and those who say there is no way other teams wouldnt have paid him and anyone who thinks they would is an idiot....kiss my butt. you dont know what anyone offered. you arent privy to negotiations. it was said we matched what was out there, what proof other than "cuz i said so" do you have against it? you just want to hate and now its cole. his contract did not in any hamper us last season and does even less to hamper us this season. you cant go into oct with 20 year olds. you have to have some vets, some of those vets need to be able to show people things. i trust cole to that job far more than i trust sammy/whitney. how people can get so frustrated about cole, yet say nary a word about sammy is beyond me. sammy played all season! he was healthy! he makes the same kind of money and sucked all season long but no one hates the guy. we hate cole for giving 100% when he only had 40% to give. we hate him for snapping his leg? that should be a season ender. we DID see a shell of cole this season. part of it is absolutely his own fault for always rushing back early, and the rest is mo's fault for a) playing him at all too early b) playing him on the pp c)playing him with staal. i only hope some of you have the sense to see it isnt cole that should be hated, he didnt pick linemates or icetime.

in the end mo is like jr, he prefers vets who play it the way he wants, mo will play cole out of position (for what he is right now) because he wants vets who will do what he says. this will be a truly interesting season for me - i have always wanted a young built from inside team....for 15 years ive asked for it. i dont trust mo to coach it, and i dont trust jr to stick with it and ride it till the end.

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06-12-2010, 01:56 PM
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This is a perfect post... kudos
Thank you. I really appreciate that.

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I agree... Cole at a league minimum is not helpful to this team at all... The guy is bad for the team at any price... Look, he used to be my favorite player, but he is just awful now and has developed so many bad habits that he can't be counted on at all
To bleedgreen's point, I think the elephant in the room in Cole's situation is his neck injury. He simply hasn't been the same player since then, and 29 other NHL teams realize it. I don't begrudge him his nicks and bruises. He's had a lot of bad luck, there's no doubt.

I'm also am a huge Erik Cole fan, and I hope he proves us all wrong. But I just don't think he's Erik Cole anymore. And expecting him to be Erik Cole again is just silly to me.

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06-13-2010, 09:41 AM
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FWIW, we ended up with Tarasenko in scott76's mock draft. It was between him and Connolly.

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06-13-2010, 03:07 PM
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the cole contract and situation i think has become the most retarded thing we talk about. erik cole had no bearing on this season. he played 30 games, almost all of them hurt. he more than earned his contract in the past, and one year of suck doesnt equal a massive pay cut. vets get paid as vets and always have. jr pays them too much too often, but cole is one i dont mind. he is too young not to have a chance to come back. his game can be effective in different roles. he isnt overpaid for what he has done in the past and has the potential to bring, and those who say there is no way other teams wouldnt have paid him and anyone who thinks they would is an idiot....kiss my butt. you dont know what anyone offered. you arent privy to negotiations. it was said we matched what was out there, what proof other than "cuz i said so" do you have against it? you just want to hate and now its cole. his contract did not in any hamper us last season and does even less to hamper us this season. you cant go into oct with 20 year olds. you have to have some vets, some of those vets need to be able to show people things. i trust cole to that job far more than i trust sammy/whitney. how people can get so frustrated about cole, yet say nary a word about sammy is beyond me. sammy played all season! he was healthy! he makes the same kind of money and sucked all season long but no one hates the guy. we hate cole for giving 100% when he only had 40% to give. we hate him for snapping his leg? that should be a season ender. we DID see a shell of cole this season. part of it is absolutely his own fault for always rushing back early, and the rest is mo's fault for a) playing him at all too early b) playing him on the pp c)playing him with staal. i only hope some of you have the sense to see it isnt cole that should be hated, he didnt pick linemates or icetime.

in the end mo is like jr, he prefers vets who play it the way he wants, mo will play cole out of position (for what he is right now) because he wants vets who will do what he says. this will be a truly interesting season for me - i have always wanted a young built from inside team....for 15 years ive asked for it. i dont trust mo to coach it, and i dont trust jr to stick with it and ride it till the end.
bwwahahahahhahahahahah... I don't know how to stop laughing after that post

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06-13-2010, 03:11 PM
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bwwahahahahhahahahahah... I don't know how to stop laughing after that post
im shocked. youre the ring leader of the hang cole posse.

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06-13-2010, 04:31 PM
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im shocked. youre the ring leader of the hang cole posse.
I think he's actually laughing AT your points instead of their salience, which is confusing. I thought the post was right on the button. Cole gets so much undue heat around here it's not even funny. It's not a good contract. It's not even a market value contract, but it's nowhere near as bad as paying Scott Walker $2.5 million last season for what he gave us.

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06-16-2010, 07:34 PM
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Huge JR fan here. I will concede that his loyalty has been as problematic as it has been beneficial for us at best. With that said, JR is the master of building a quick hitter team for deep runs because of his affinity for veteran talent. The longer term problem of building a perpetually competitive team has been quite evasive. Those claiming that he has no talent for team building couldn't be more off the mark. He has assembled some teams that have done some really great things and his moves directly after the lockout were masterful if not damn near prophetic. JR invested into Matt Cullen, Martin Gerber, Mike Commodore, Cory Stillman, Ray Whitney, and Frank Kaberle when nobody wanted them as badly as we did.

Yes, the up and down nature of this team is bothersome.... but it isn't as bothersome to me as multiple flameouts in the playoffs. When we make it we make it deep. I would rather have it that way than the other way around of making it every year and going out in the first or second round.
Agree with all of this. That was a great post. You win.

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