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Old
06-13-2010, 04:10 PM
  #251
Darth Vitale
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Originally Posted by jdpitt05 View Post
Versteeg is nice, but I'd be pulling for Byfuglien if it was between those two for the same price. Buff's presence in the playoffs far outweighs Versteeg's imo. Versteeg is also only 5' 10 and doesn't consistently make the simple plays. I'd gladly take either though.

Byfuglien is better suited to a physical series but overall he's not as talented a player and is less the type of winger we need compared to Versteeg. There's no way I'd give Chicago a 1st for Byfuglien. A middling prospect and pick 80, maybe. Not pick 20. Versteeg OTOH, you can at least argue is better than anyone (skill-wise) that we could get at 20 though I bet Galiev will be close. Then again he could be another Kolstov. Don't you just love the draft?

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06-13-2010, 04:14 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
Byfuglien is better suited to a physical series but overall he's not as talented a player and is less the type of winger we need compared to Versteeg. There's no way I'd give Chicago a 1st for Byfuglien. A middling prospect and pick 80, maybe. Not pick 20. Versteeg OTOH, you can at least argue is better than anyone (skill-wise) that we could get at 20 though I bet Galiev will be close. Then again he could be another Kolstov. Don't you just love the draft?
Plus Big Buff had a tendency to get lazy though I'd love to have him on the PP. I think Galiev probably projects to put up similar numbers as Versteeg but it won't be for at least 3 years.

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06-13-2010, 04:50 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
Byfuglien is better suited to a physical series but overall he's not as talented a player and is less the type of winger we need compared to Versteeg. There's no way I'd give Chicago a 1st for Byfuglien. A middling prospect and pick 80, maybe. Not pick 20. Versteeg OTOH, you can at least argue is better than anyone (skill-wise) that we could get at 20 though I bet Galiev will be close. Then again he could be another Kolstov. Don't you just love the draft?
I know Buff can be lazy and Versteeg has more natural talent, but the ultimate goal is winning in the playoffs. I think Buff has shown he's a force in front of the net while continually frustrating defenses and goalies. He wreaks havoc and creates/finishes opportunities in the paint. I just think Buff makes more of an impact in a playoff series than Versteeg. However as I said, I'd gladly take either.

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06-13-2010, 05:03 PM
  #254
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I'd like to see some Buffy the Flyers Slayer photoshops as well.

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06-13-2010, 09:03 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
Byfuglien is better suited to a physical series but overall he's not as talented a player and is less the type of winger we need compared to Versteeg. There's no way I'd give Chicago a 1st for Byfuglien. A middling prospect and pick 80, maybe. Not pick 20. Versteeg OTOH, you can at least argue is better than anyone (skill-wise) that we could get at 20 though I bet Galiev will be close. Then again he could be another Kolstov. Don't you just love the draft?
Veilleux, 1st, and 3rd for Buff and Versteeg?

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06-13-2010, 09:17 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Veilleux, 1st, and 3rd for Buff and Versteeg?
I think you would have to add more picks or prospects. But wow both Buff and Versteeg as our right wingers would be great. Then maybe sign Frolov and or trade for Kulemin. Pretty cool.

Kunitz Crosby Versteeg
Kulemin/ Frolov Malkin Buff

I like your idea with Buff and Versteeg because they both did win the cup and have playoff experience at such a young age.

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06-13-2010, 09:33 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Veilleux, 1st, and 3rd for Buff and Versteeg?
3rd in 2011, sure. A deep draft and Pens have 0 picks in the first 3 rounds is bad. We need prospects to come in aswell as talent right now. But since we are in fantasy land (thinking we will get both).

Veilleux, 1st, 3rd in 11 for Buff and Steeg.
Staal, TK? for Ryan and 3rd round pick
Dupuis in draft for a 4th round pick

Kunitz-Crosby-Ryan
Steeg-Malkin-Buff
Cooke-Letestu-Tangradi
Rupp-Talbot-Adams

I love making lineups. Pens get tougher and more skilled on the wings. More toughness in the top 6? i LOVE it! Wonder how the PP will look. Also more toughness in the bottom 6 with Tangradi there learning, and keeping Cooke. Who needs Kovalchuk now, huh Jags?

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06-13-2010, 09:53 PM
  #258
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Ohh I like that. I will try my own formula for this.

Trade
Signed
Brought up

Kunitz-Crosby-Versteeg
Afinigenov-Malkin-Byfuglien
Cooke-Staal-Talbot
Dupuis-Letestu-Adams/Godard

...im not doing the salaries lol

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06-13-2010, 10:10 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by oshjo75 View Post
Ohh I like that. I will try my own formula for this.

Trade
Signed
Brought up

Kunitz-Crosby-Versteeg
Afinigenov-Malkin-Byfuglien
Cooke-Staal-Talbot
Dupuis-Letestu-Adams/Godard

...im not doing the salaries lol
Who and what are we trading to get the Chicago boys?

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06-13-2010, 10:16 PM
  #260
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People need to quit using neon green.

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06-13-2010, 10:31 PM
  #261
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Byfuglien provides an element that the Hawks don't otherwise have, and there are plenty of other options they'll exhaust before getting rid of him, especially now that he's somewhat of a folk hero.

We need to narrow our gaze a little here - I don't think the Pens are going to have 3 new FA options joining the top 6, nice as that would be. If we re-sign Gonch, Cooke, nab Whitney for the top 6, and have the other 2 spots filled in by Tangradi/Johnson and maybe Talbot, I think we'll have done okay.

We don't need to re-invent the wheel.

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06-13-2010, 10:41 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Veilleux, 1st, and 3rd for Buff and Versteeg?
In half a heartbeat.

1st for Versteeg is about right, maybe slight overpayment maybe slight under... you could argue either way.

Pick 80 and Veilleux for Buff, given his playoff, is probably low... but not too far off. If Ray somehow managed to get both without giving up Tangradi or Despres, I'd poop myself. I still think Buff is in for a slow start next year though. You just know the guy is going to put on weight this summer given his past habits and winning the Cup / celebrating / etc.

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06-13-2010, 10:57 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Byfuglien provides an element that the Hawks don't otherwise have, and there are plenty of other options they'll exhaust before getting rid of him, especially now that he's somewhat of a folk hero.
Actually, I think he is going to be one of the first they move. I don't disagree with you on what you otherwise said of him, but Chicago better than anyone know that Buf just isn't that good, and right now is the perfect time to get someone to overpay. After all, 'big man who can score' is something everyone wants to pay for.

But we're talking about a man who has never had a 20 goal season, is streaky as hell and often playing lazy, and he has been playing with QUALITY for the past couple of years. We're talking third line with Versteeg and Havlat last season, and elevator duty on their first three lines this season, ending up with Toews and Kane when he exploded + plus of course the PP which is his bread and butter.... and where BILL GUERIN was more dangerous than him in the regular season.
Granted, he has a better shot and can even be used on the point, but in terms of what he is otherwise doing, we can take Taylor Pyatt for a fourth/fifth of Buf's salary and expect almost the same - with better D.

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06-14-2010, 12:10 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Actually, I think he is going to be one of the first they move. I don't disagree with you on what you otherwise said of him, but Chicago better than anyone know that Buf just isn't that good, and right now is the perfect time to get someone to overpay. After all, 'big man who can score' is something everyone wants to pay for.
Guys who can own the area in front of the net - Holmstrom, Smyth, Byfuglien, maybe Hornqvist shortly - score the ugly goals when checking gets tight and finesse and grit alone don't get it done. They also become an unavoidable focus for premier defensemen, giving the stars room to shine. It seems like it should be easy, but it's a rare skill - we know from seeing so many of our players fail at it.

Nobody else on Chicago can fill that role. The team has skill and speed to burn, but no other Buffs.

Quote:
But we're talking about a man who has never had a 20 goal season, is streaky as hell and often playing lazy, and he has been playing with QUALITY for the past couple of years. We're talking third line with Versteeg and Havlat last season, and elevator duty on their first three lines this season, ending up with Toews and Kane when he exploded + plus of course the PP which is his bread and butter.... and where BILL GUERIN was more dangerous than him in the regular season.
I think Franzen's playoff breakout a couple years ago could be a good parallel for Buff.

Quote:
Granted, he has a better shot and can even be used on the point, but in terms of what he is otherwise doing, we can take Taylor Pyatt for a fourth/fifth of Buf's salary and expect almost the same - with better D.
Oh Rip, you can't mean that. You're underrating the value of the sort of net presence Byfuglien has - just being big doesn't cut it, and Pyatt hasn't shown a shred of it despite being 4 years older than Buff.

No opponent's going to change a game plan because Pyatt is a team's go-to crease squatter.

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06-14-2010, 12:43 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Guys who can own the area in front of the net - Holmstrom, Smyth, Byfuglien, maybe Hornqvist shortly - score the ugly goals when checking gets tight and finesse and grit alone don't get it done. They also become an unavoidable focus for premier defensemen, giving the stars room to shine. It seems like it should be easy, but it's a rare skill - we know from seeing so many of our players fail at it.

The only guy we've had like that since Malone is Bill Guerin who can hardly move and is now 40 years old. What I am saying is that if we have a big man who will actually go in front of that cage and battle instead of waiting for a puck with his RH stick on the ice to the left of the goal, the skill level of the guy in question doesn't have to be very high. He doesn't have to play on the top6 either, just like Buf hasn't been a top6 player for the Hawks much, because he just isn't that good 5 on 5.
I give Buf all sorts of credit for what he did to close this seasons playoffs, but considering him a premier big man/in front of the net guy... to me that is as premature as it was thinking Talbot would be a top6 player after last year.

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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Nobody else on Chicago can fill that role. The team has skill and speed to burn, but no other Buffs.

True that, but then they have to go out an gamble on another third liner to give them that - or hope Beach can do it. Fact is that they will have to shed a ridiculous amount of salary, and there's always the deadline to address the net presence issue, if the guys they take in aren't getting it done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I think Franzen's playoff breakout a couple years ago could be a good parallel for Buff.

We'll see, and maybe you're right.... but I think Franzen is twice as good as a hockey player than Buf is. Chicago had a team that was absolutely loaded. Many guys will come to look good with a specialist skill when helped by that kind of team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Oh Rip, you can't mean that. You're underrating the value of the sort of net presence Byfuglien has - just being big doesn't cut it, and Pyatt hasn't shown a shred of it despite being 4 years older than Buff.

Of course he has. That's why I point it out . When he was actually in that role on Vancouver with the Sedin's, he produced just as much with about the same amount of time on the PP as what Buf has done for the Hawks these past two years. Difference is the playoff success Buf just had, but... you cannot compare those Vancouver teams with these Hawks teams. Their ES production is almost identical in latter seasons also, despite Buf getting more ice-time with significantly better players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
No opponent's going to change a game plan because Pyatt is a team's go-to crease squatter.
I am not saying Pyatt is as good, nor that it is really close. Its not to pimp my Pyatt idea that hard, it is just an example. I am simply saying that what we need for the PP is one who is on that doorstep + able to win some battles behind the cage. Pyatt did both against the Wings, and he has been doing so consistently many times when I've watched the Coyotes this season (a pet fancy of mine).
Ideally - we want to get that kind of addition on the cheap. Pyatt would be. Buf will be more of a guarantee - on the PP at least - but he is simply not a good 5 on 5 player. He wouldn't be an upgrade on this seasons Guerin 5 on 5. Seriously. I don't want to pay 3 million+ per year for that.

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06-14-2010, 07:56 AM
  #266
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People need to quit using neon green.
Agreed. That **** makes my eyes wanna go crossed.

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06-14-2010, 08:26 AM
  #267
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I agree with Tender Rip. Guerin certainly proved that a big body can score points with Crosby just by standing in front of the net and providing a screen or just letting the puck deflect. Obviously, Guerin is a savvy veteran and that contributed to his success, but his physical shortcomings also were quite obvious.

As Rip pointed out, we now know that Crosby doesn't need a super skilled player on that wing, so getting someone who can fill that role cheaply and bring a little more defense/cycling skill to the game would be great. Pyatt is a good example of such a player. He has a history of scoring some goal when on a line with good players and demonstrated some additional physicality last year.

Clearly, a Buff or a Holmstrom would be preferable, but in a cap world, Guerin proved that Crosby's right wing is a position where we might be able to save some cash. Those savings could then be invested in a defenseman.

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06-14-2010, 08:29 AM
  #268
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I agree with Tender Rip. Guerin certainly proved that a big body can score points with Crosby just by standing in front of the net and providing a screen or just letting the puck deflect. Obviously, Guerin is a savvy veteran and that contributed to his success, but his physical shortcomings also were quite obvious.

As Rip pointed out, we now know that Crosby doesn't need a super skilled player on that wing, so getting someone who can fill that role cheaply and bring a little more defense/cycling skill to the game would be great. Pyatt is a good example of such a player. He has a history of scoring some goal when on a line with good players and demonstrated some additional physicality last year.

Clearly, a Buff or a Holmstrom would be preferable, but in a cap world, Guerin proved that Crosby's right wing is a position where we might be able to save some cash. Those savings could then be invested in a defenseman.
Very solid points. Welcome to HF.

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06-14-2010, 08:37 AM
  #269
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We need to get off this Taylor Pyatt idea. He's 28 years old and he has a career best of 37 points. Pascal Dupuis is coming off a 38-point campaign, and that wasn't even his career best.

If we cannot re-sign Matt Cooke, Pyatt would be the type of player we could sign to replace him on the third line...that is, if we didn't already have internal replacement options.

Skill. Skill. Skill. I cannot stress that enough. We don't need a Canadian Ruslan Fedotenko in the top six. We need wingers who can actually create a scoring chance by themselves once in a while.

If the choice is between Pyatt and Guerin, SADLY, the latter is still a better option.

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06-14-2010, 09:58 AM
  #270
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We need to get off this Taylor Pyatt idea. He's 28 years old and he has a career best of 37 points. Pascal Dupuis is coming off a 38-point campaign, and that wasn't even his career best.
The PP needs a big man. No matter who it is, the PP needs a big man. People are talking about Byfuglien - who has never had a 37 point season - nor has he ever scored 20 goals in a season. That's the reason for talking about Pyatt - or whoever in that mould.
Because if you want a big man with skill and recent accomplishments in the scoring department... that will cost you big time - or it will be Bil Guerin (which is not OK) or it will be Bertuzzi (which is fine with me).
Either way - the PP needs a big man.

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If the choice is between Pyatt and Guerin, SADLY, the latter is still a better option.
I have seen too many PP's just die because of Guerin, not to mention him being too off the pace on Crosby's wing, to accept doing nothing about that. I'd rather relinquish the 'big man' part of the first line altogether than seeing Guerin on it again.
But - again - the PP needs a big man, or a Homlström... but there are very, very few smaller forwards like him who can accomplish what he does, and Nashville sure aren't giving up there's.

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06-14-2010, 10:12 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post

I think Franzen's playoff breakout a couple years ago could be a good parallel for Buff.

Let's not get carried away.

While the "out of nowhere" aspect of it seems familiar, and they're both big dudes, Franzen has a much better skillset and he's in much better shape.

You could call Buff a "poor man's Franzen" and it would be more accurate. Franzen is going to be close to a perennial 30-30 guy IMO. Buff will probably be a 20-20 player most of his career. They're not on the same level IMHO, even though they can play a similar style sometimes and in a tough playoff series will be asked to do the same kinds of things. I just think Franzen will consistently do them better as long as he's healthy.

I do agree with Chick (welcome btw) that if you're talking about Crosby, you don't necessary *need* a Franzen to be successful with that line, so in that sense Buff would fit pretty well if he takes his conditioning seriously, etc. But I would list a "big body to deflect shots and clean up Sid's rebounds" as a third priority, right behind

1 - Skilled winger
1a - Orpik Junior
3 - Big bodied deflector / ****-stirrer


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 06-14-2010 at 10:56 AM.
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06-14-2010, 10:54 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
The PP needs a big man. No matter who it is, the PP needs a big man. People are talking about Byfuglien - who has never had a 37 point season - nor has he ever scored 20 goals in a season. That's the reason for talking about Pyatt - or whoever in that mould.
Because if you want a big man with skill and recent accomplishments in the scoring department... that will cost you big time - or it will be Bil Guerin (which is not OK) or it will be Bertuzzi (which is fine with me).
Either way - the PP needs a big man.



I have seen too many PP's just die because of Guerin, not to mention him being too off the pace on Crosby's wing, to accept doing nothing about that. I'd rather relinquish the 'big man' part of the first line altogether than seeing Guerin on it again.
But - again - the PP needs a big man, or a Homlström... but there are very, very few smaller forwards like him who can accomplish what he does, and Nashville sure aren't giving up there's.
Fine. BUT, why Taylor Pyatt? He's just another bottom sixer. He's never had consistent time in front of the net for any team. He's NOT the guy you're looking for. Sadly, the guy you're looking for just bombed after we acquired him at the deadline. Ponikarovsky, at least, had the pedigree of a scoring winger...which Pyatt does not.

We have Tangradi and Staal for the front of the net. We have bigger fish to fry this summer.

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06-14-2010, 12:24 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
We need to get off this Taylor Pyatt idea. He's 28 years old and he has a career best of 37 points. Pascal Dupuis is coming off a 38-point campaign, and that wasn't even his career best.
I've heard a couple legit writers/hosts say he wants to be a Leaf pretty badly and Burke wants to sign him.

They talked about it like it was a done deal, but you know...

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06-14-2010, 12:41 PM
  #274
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I believe Burke brought him to Vancouver, so it makes sense.

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06-14-2010, 01:19 PM
  #275
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I've heard a couple legit writers/hosts say he wants to be a Leaf pretty badly and Burke wants to sign him.

They talked about it like it was a done deal, but you know...
CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT:

I know it sounds nuts but I'm [I]this[I] close to really believing that reporters based in Toronto basically publicize who Burke wants in free agency or trade in order for him to avoid tampering penalties. Seriously, how come every time he wants someone it comes out in the papers? There's just WAY too many stories plainly saying who Burke specifically wants. Then again maybe they're just making **** up like every other NHL reporter.

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