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Rutherford: Whitney unlikely to sign with Canes

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06-09-2010, 01:35 PM
  #126
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Yeah well, that's the same argument TR uses for Gonchar. Neither player LOOKS like he's going to be done in three seasons, but what if they are?

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06-09-2010, 01:36 PM
  #127
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Well I wouldn't give him 3 years, simple as that. Two for sure, if you see him tailing off in year two at least you know you're not stuck with another year.

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06-09-2010, 01:38 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Putting Sid on the point gives him the puck more. As crazy as this sounds, I don't believe Sid has the puck nearly enough over the course of a season. And obviously, the Habs denied him the puck very well. I want my best player to have the puck as much as humanly possible.

SO, either Sid is the new QB or Geno. Either way. Feed the beasts.

As JTG pointed out, whether they are literally on the point or the half-wall, just make one of them the guy on the power play. Call it the point forward, whatever. Just have them more involved.

Heck, use them both interchangeably, where every power play they alternate roles. These two guys are so special, I just don't think we're maxing out what they're capable of.

And when it comes right down to it, my whole Kovalchuk obsession is more about what I just said above than about any kind of man-crush for ol' 17. I like Kovy, but what I like even more is maximizing what we already have in Sid and Geno. THAT is Priority 1 for me right now.
Sid would be great at distributing the puck from the point but his one timer isn't good enough for the defense to respect it, Geno's is. That's why I want him on the point and not Sid. With practice Geno could be everything Gonch was and more. He can set up plays, he can shoot, he can enter the zone with the puck, he can move around on the PP.

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06-09-2010, 01:39 PM
  #129
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3 years if he makes the cap hit 2 million.

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06-09-2010, 01:39 PM
  #130
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Yeah... I have a lot of faith in Letang... but he took a visible step back this year. Going into the season I had absolutely no reservations about Gonchar potentially leaving, since I figured Letang's development would continue on the same track it had been. But man... ugly year. You're right, though... with both he and Goligoski... it's all confidence.

It totally boggled my mind that the coaching staff started to emphasize him practicing his point shot on the powerplay with something like two weeks left in the regular season when he had been biffing opportunities all... year... long.
Everything that plagues Letang is mental, which is very scary. It's not something that can be coached.

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Yeah well, that's the same argument TR uses for Gonchar. Neither player LOOKS like he's going to be done in three seasons, but what if they are?
Whitney being 3 years older has a lot more left than Sarge does, IMO.

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06-09-2010, 01:40 PM
  #131
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Well I wouldn't give him 3 years, simple as that. Two for sure, if you see him tailing off in year two at least you know you're not stuck with another year.
Absolutely. No disputing that logic. You are too wise, WVP.

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06-09-2010, 01:44 PM
  #132
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Everything that plagues Letang is mental, which is very scary. It's not something that can be coached.
Oh yeah, I get that.

But... still... you'd think they'd of had a sit-down with him earlier in the year and let him get a lot of time in practicing that aspect of his game. You know... lots of repetition. The powerplay was plaguing them all year... a more effective Letang would have helped out immensely. You can build confidence in practice, too. I dunno... it just seemed like a pretty lackadaisical, somewhat careless and extremely tardy response to a glaring year-long issue.

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Whitney being 3 years older has a lot more left than Sarge does, IMO.
Absolutely agree. I saw the guy a good bit throughout the course of the regular season. Like you said earlier, it was really difficult to tell that he's a guy in his late 30s. Still silky smooth in almost all aspects of his game.

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06-09-2010, 01:47 PM
  #133
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Everything that plagues Letang is mental, which is very scary. It's not something that can be coached.
What's odd to me, is that he regularly tries show-off plays (usually bonehead) bringing the puck out of the zone while at the same time appears timid in other areas. Like Jekyll and Hyde. But then he scores a nice goal and looks like an all star for the rest of the game.

He just turned 23, I'm guessing we have a few more years of mental hiccups, let's just hope they decrease in frequency.

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You are too wise, WVP.
Well let's not get crazy here.

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06-09-2010, 02:02 PM
  #134
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People are so low on Sarge these days it's ridiculous. God we know he had a bad year defensively, so did every other Dman and also the goalie. Get over it. He's a premier offensive defenseman that can still at least be reliable back there. You're taking him for granted.

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06-09-2010, 02:03 PM
  #135
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I can't remember what thread I put it in, but the same thing goes for Letang's physicality. The games where the opposition tries to rough him up in the beginning of the game, I get excited, because he plays like a top pairing defenseman with a sharp edge for the rest of the game. He's much like Crosby. You see Crosby playing, then all of a sudden someone takes a liberty, the dog gets woken up, and all of a sudden he's unstoppable.

Maybe someone needs to punch Letang in the face before every game to get him into it

That's what it looks like to me...some games he's into it, and some games he's not.

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06-09-2010, 02:08 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
People are so low on Sarge these days it's ridiculous. God we know he had a bad year defensively, so did every other Dman and also the goalie. Get over it. He's a premier offensive defenseman that can still at least be reliable back there. You're taking him for granted.
This wasn't just last year. His defense has been declining since his Norris caliber season a few years back. He is becoming a liability in his own zone, and to be very honest, I put our powerplay's inability to get things set up on his shoulders. He carries the puck up the ice much, much slower than he used to, and that really stalls our unit.

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06-09-2010, 02:15 PM
  #137
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The question is how much does he have left, specifically. I don't want to gamble on that third year, which his camp will undoubtedly ask for.
If he wants to play for the Pens as much as Mckenzie said he does, I'm sure he would accept a 2 yr deal.

Even if they gave a 3 yr deal, who knows what the new CBA will hold.... the final two years will be under a new CBA and who knows what clauses will carry over, specifically the 35+ provision.

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06-09-2010, 02:18 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
People are so low on Sarge these days it's ridiculous. God we know he had a bad year defensively, so did every other Dman and also the goalie. Get over it. He's a premier offensive defenseman that can still at least be reliable back there. You're taking him for granted.
I've found myself saying "WTF Gonchar" on numerous occasions the last two seasons... his positional play has taken a sharp decline... Some of the things I see him doing out there boggles my mind. Its like he is playing in a garage league pickup game at times...

I'd rather sacrifice some of his points to have a more reliable blueliner in his own end, than Sarge.

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06-09-2010, 02:19 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
People are so low on Sarge these days it's ridiculous. God we know he had a bad year defensively, so did every other Dman and also the goalie. Get over it. He's a premier offensive defenseman that can still at least be reliable back there. You're taking him for granted.
I'm afraid of bringing back the same defense. And if you add another top 4 guy along with bringing Gonchar back then our wings might even be worse than this year.

And if you don't bring in another guy you're really counting on Gonchar to bring it for at least two more years. That seems like a silly risk.

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06-09-2010, 03:33 PM
  #140
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If they don't keep Gonchar it is what it is, I'm not saying he's perfect, but why can't you upgrade the blue line and also keep him? I don't think his defense declined but in a actuality we just started getting what we paid for. I've said this before: He was a $6-7 defenseman for awhile there. Now since he's coming back to earth people think he'd be overpaid if he got $5 million again. Not true, we're just getting what we thought we were getting originally: an elite PP QB who is so-so at best on defense. That's what you pay for them, that's what they cost whether we like it or not.

I feel strongly about this for the same reason I got way too freaked out with the Malkin trade talk: I don't think you should eschew talent just because of other factors aside from said talent. You build the rest of your team around anything else you need. Letang or Goligoski ain't puttin up 55-65 points trust me. Plus, and I admit it's a very acute point, but it's nigh impossible to find a point man with a slap shot like Gonchar's, get rid of him, then find another. Malkin could do it but doesn't want to and I don't know if I want him back there anyways.

If you can keep Gonchar for the same or preferably $4.5 million, put him with Orpik again or if Orpik's running around bothers you then get a Hamhuis or Michalek if possible and do it that way. Again I don't think Gonchar is reliable as he once was, but I honestly don't believe he's as bad on defense now as everyone says. People were hung up on him not hitting anyone (uh, he never did) and the play against Montreal was absolutely pathetic but it was one play where he admitted it was a terrible judgment call on his part not a lack of effort. I agree it was horrid but if you're going to get hung up on that then let's get hung up on everything else that went wrong in the Montreal series, of which one item was how bad Letang and Goligoski were.

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06-09-2010, 03:39 PM
  #141
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If they don't keep Gonchar it is what it is, I'm not saying he's perfect, but why can't you upgrade the blue line and also keep him? I don't think his defense declined but in a actuality we just started getting what we paid for. I've said this before: He was a $6-7 defenseman for awhile there. Now since he's coming back to earth people think he'd be overpaid if he got $5 million again. Not true, we're just getting what we thought we were getting originally: an elite PP QB who is so-so at best on defense. That's what you pay for them, that's what they cost like it or not.
At some point, Sarge will be gone though. He isn't going to reverse age.

Might as well cut the umbilical cord now and let GoGo and Letang grow into their PP roles. I've seen GoGo run a PP before in WBS and he is very good at it... will he ever be like Sarge? Prob not... but in a cap era, you need to make tough decisions.

I'd rather see the excess cap room go to signing a young all around blueliner like Michalek and finding a legit winger - then give Sarge who is declining on the back end, and becoming injury prone, 5m.

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06-09-2010, 03:48 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
People are so low on Sarge these days it's ridiculous. God we know he had a bad year defensively, so did every other Dman and also the goalie. Get over it. He's a premier offensive defenseman that can still at least be reliable back there. You're taking him for granted.
No one's taking the 2010-11 version of Sarge for granted. Everybody and their brother knows Gonchar has a good year left in him. Two? Three?

It's more about moving on one year sooner rather than too late, more than anything negative towards Sarge. He was a good Penguin. Thank him for his time and move on.

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06-09-2010, 03:55 PM
  #143
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Hey I'm just leaving it be in the way that whatever happens happens. I just think some people are way too low on him. I actually like Goligoski power play-wise he just doesn't have the shot for my taste. If we could keep Gonchar for 2 years/$8-9 million I don't see why you wouldn't do it. I think the mentality should be different for talented guys and the scrubs we try to scrape together and call a winger corps. Those type of free agents if we get a certain one great, if not.....meh. However a talented player we can't really be snooty about his deficiencies because other teams don't care and will pay him the money because they aren't picky and want the player for what he does well not what he lacks.

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06-09-2010, 03:56 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
No one's taking the 2010-11 version of Sarge for granted. Everybody and their brother knows Gonchar has a good year left in him. Two? Three?

It's more about moving on one year sooner rather than too late, more than anything negative towards Sarge. He was a good Penguin. Thank him for his time and move on.
Absolutely.

Even in the the first cup berth year, he had his moments where you just wanted to strangle him. Now, we know he wasn't a defensive stalwart to start, but the mistakes have built up more and more as the years have passed. So have the injuries. Plus, how will our youngsters learn on the blueline if everyone is still leaning on Gonch?

I would have thought that the Montreal series would have showed us a few things .... one of those being an threatening PP is necessary if you aren't doing anything 5 on 5. If that's supposed to be his speciality, and it failed when we needed it the most .....

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06-09-2010, 03:56 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
If he wants to play for the Pens as much as Mckenzie said he does, I'm sure he would accept a 2 yr deal.

Even if they gave a 3 yr deal, who knows what the new CBA will hold.... the final two years will be under a new CBA and who knows what clauses will carry over, specifically the 35+ provision.
Jiggy, I doubt the 35+ rule is going to disappear. They'll likely grandfather it out if it's no longer a part of the next CBA, like how some rules were grandfathered in the last time.

Either way, I am not banking on the CBA to save our bacon on the Gonchar and Whitney issues.

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06-09-2010, 03:59 PM
  #146
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At some point, Sarge will be gone though. He isn't going to reverse age.

Might as well cut the umbilical cord now and let GoGo and Letang grow into their PP roles. I've seen GoGo run a PP before in WBS and he is very good at it... will he ever be like Sarge? Prob not... but in a cap era, you need to make tough decisions.

I'd rather see the excess cap room go to signing a young all around blueliner like Michalek and finding a legit winger - then give Sarge who is declining on the back end, and becoming injury prone, 5m.
I have to agree with this post. I still think Gonch could contribute but it would not be enough of a contribution to warrant what someone else will probably give him.

We have to start giving the young guys the playing time and let them grow. Hopefully GoGo and Letang can improve while we strengthen the team in other areas where we are lacking.

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06-09-2010, 04:02 PM
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What's odd to me, is that he regularly tries show-off plays (usually bonehead) bringing the puck out of the zone while at the same time appears timid in other areas. Like Jekyll and Hyde. But then he scores a nice goal and looks like an all star for the rest of the game.

He just turned 23, I'm guessing we have a few more years of mental hiccups, let's just hope they decrease in frequency.
I thought I was the only one who noticed that (or cared to note it). I've seen Letang try cutesy plays to get the puck out of the zone so many times, that I wonder if he is encouraged to do it.

Anyway, what I find odd about Letang is that he is so good at grabbing the puck and getting the play going the other way, but he seldom gets it to lead to any real scoring opportunities. If there's one thing I really like about him it's the way he's gone in an instant towards the opposing zone. I don't expect these plays to end in goals a lot, I just would like to see some quality scoring opportunities every once in a while from plays Letang starts in his own zone. One of the things he isn't as good at as Gonchar is is passing the puck quickly to forwards instead of lugging it himself through the neutral zone, so maybe it's partially that and also due to his experience and the lack of skilled wingers.

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06-09-2010, 04:03 PM
  #148
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Hey I'm just leaving it be in the way that whatever happens happens. I just think some people are way too low on him. I actually like Goligoski power play-wise he just doesn't have the shot for my taste. If we could keep Gonchar for 2 years/$8-9 million I don't see why you wouldn't do it. I think the mentality should be different for talented guys and the scrubs we try to scrape together and call a winger corps. Those type of free agents if we get a certain one great, if not.....meh. However a talented player we can't really be snooty about his deficiencies because other teams don't care and will pay him the money because they aren't picky and want the player for what he does well not what he lacks.
He's a puckmover .... we don't lack for those.
He's an offensive threat .... overall, we don't lack for those.
He's a veteran .... we don't lack for those either.

He's not a defensive defenseman .... we need that.
He's not a top six forward .... we need that.

I would just rather infuse that 5M into pieces that we desperately need rather than putting it in a 35 year old, recently oft-injured, somewhat "soff" defender who is part of the reason why our power play is where it is. If we can get two guys who can make us harder to play against and add some of what Gonch brings offensively, to me, we can't pass up that opportunity. And many of the suitors for Gonchar probably already have those "pieces" that we are trying to acquire.

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06-09-2010, 04:04 PM
  #149
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Rutherford is a good GM but he played his cards wrong on this one. Not only did his team not make the playoffs but now they will get nothing in return for a player who he knew wanted out.
Only wrong move that JR made was giving Whitney an NTC in the first place. Whitney, after repeated statements this season that he would waive it to help the team, refused to waive his NTC to go to LA for a 2nd and a choice of Teubert/Voynov because LA wouldn't re-sign him for 3 years. He refused to waive it again at the deadline. Nothing else JR could have done to play this differently.

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I wonder what Carolina would want for his rights...
conditional 5th(condition obviously being that he signs) and I'd be happy.

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06-09-2010, 04:05 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
If they don't keep Gonchar it is what it is, I'm not saying he's perfect, but why can't you upgrade the blue line and also keep him? I don't think his defense declined but in a actuality we just started getting what we paid for. I've said this before: He was a $6-7 defenseman for awhile there. Now since he's coming back to earth people think he'd be overpaid if he got $5 million again. Not true, we're just getting what we thought we were getting originally: an elite PP QB who is so-so at best on defense. That's what you pay for them, that's what they cost whether we like it or not.

I feel strongly about this for the same reason I got way too freaked out with the Malkin trade talk: I don't think you should eschew talent just because of other factors aside from said talent. You build the rest of your team around anything else you need. Letang or Goligoski ain't puttin up 55-65 points trust me. Plus, and I admit it's a very acute point, but it's nigh impossible to find a point man with a slap shot like Gonchar's, get rid of him, then find another. Malkin could do it but doesn't want to and I don't know if I want him back there anyways.

If you can keep Gonchar for the same or preferably $4.5 million, put him with Orpik again or if Orpik's running around bothers you then get a Hamhuis or Michalek if possible and do it that way. Again I don't think Gonchar is reliable as he once was, but I honestly don't believe he's as bad on defense now as everyone says. People were hung up on him not hitting anyone (uh, he never did) and the play against Montreal was absolutely pathetic but it was one play where he admitted it was a terrible judgment call on his part not a lack of effort. I agree it was horrid but if you're going to get hung up on that then let's get hung up on everything else that went wrong in the Montreal series, of which one item was how bad Letang and Goligoski were.
The slap shot is not the issue, UB. You can sign Marc-Andre Bergeron for $500,000 this summer if you want the slap shot. That's not it at all.

I will again say this, what is more likely to happen in the next 2-3 years? Improved performance/production from Letang and Goligoski, or sustained production from Gonchar (without major drop-offs in other facets of his game).

If management honestly believes in the latter, I seriously doubt Letang would have been re-signed when he was. So, trust management or tell them (and us) I told you so when they crap the bed. That's how I see it.

As for adding 2 big-ticket defenders, including Gonchar, that'll basically mean more garbage-bin wingers and I am soooo tired of that, personally.

How about some garbage-bin defenders for a year, while our youngsters continue to develop? Since, you know, we actually have defensemen to develop, as opposed to wingers.

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