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Old
06-09-2010, 04:08 PM
  #151
UnderratedBrooks44
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Originally Posted by BatonRougePen View Post
He's a puckmover .... we don't lack for those.
He's an offensive threat .... overall, we don't lack for those.
He's a veteran .... we don't lack for those either.

He's not a defensive defenseman .... we need that.
He's not a top six forward .... we need that.

I would just rather infuse that 5M into pieces that we desperately need rather than putting it in a 35 year old, recently oft-injured, somewhat "soff" defender who is part of the reason why our power play is where it is. If we can get two guys who can make us harder to play against and add some of what Gonch brings offensively, to me, we can't pass up that opportunity. And many of the suitors for Gonchar probably already have those "pieces" that we are trying to acquire.
There definitely are question marks, I agree. I definitely came on too strong at first because like I said all in all I don't really care what happens because as you said we could use the money in other areas. My commentary (at least where I WANTED it to be directed) was towards the people that seem to have an attitude of "Gonchar's old, he's 'terrible' defensively, see ya later" because that's just dumb in my opinion. I mean there's a chance he goes to a good team and he's part of a long playoff run. If you can't deal with his deficiencies any more your tone should be somewhat guarded and a little uneasy about our point production going forward, rather than the hypothetical quote above. As always, "in my opinion."

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06-09-2010, 04:10 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Hey I'm just leaving it be in the way that whatever happens happens. I just think some people are way too low on him. I actually like Goligoski power play-wise he just doesn't have the shot for my taste. If we could keep Gonchar for 2 years/$8-9 million I don't see why you wouldn't do it. I think the mentality should be different for talented guys and the scrubs we try to scrape together and call a winger corps. Those type of free agents if we get a certain one great, if not.....meh. However a talented player we can't really be snooty about his deficiencies because other teams don't care and will pay him the money because they aren't picky and want the player for what he does well not what he lacks.
A talented player with diminishing returns is not the same as a talented player, period. And to overlook his slight decline is not smart management, at all.

2 years, $8 million? Twist my arm, I do it I think (depends honestly on what else is out there, who else has interest in joining us). 2 years, $9 million, I wanna see what's out there.

It's a business in the end, and maybe I just am an age snob because I can't let emotions play into these decisions when it comes to aging players. Look around, what prevents teams quite often from competing for the playoffs? Players are either too young, or too old. When they're too young, you accept it with thoughts of better days ahead. When they're too old? It gets ugly.

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06-09-2010, 04:14 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by BatonRougePen View Post
He's an offensive threat .... overall, we don't lack for those.
I agreed with everything else, except the above statement. We DO lack offensive threats, BRP. It's the theme of this off-season. Acquire more skill. I am not saying Gonchar is a must re-sign, because we cannot think that way imo. But his offense will have to be replaced somewhere.

How many current Penguins have the potential to produce 49+ points in 2010-11? The actual answer scares the hell out of me.

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06-09-2010, 04:19 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
There definitely are question marks, I agree. I definitely came on too strong at first because like I said all in all I don't really care what happens because as you said we could use the money in other areas. My commentary (at least where I WANTED it to be directed) was towards the people that seem to have an attitude of "Gonchar's old, he's 'terrible' defensively, see ya later" because that's just dumb in my opinion. I mean there's a chance he goes to a good team and he's part of a long playoff run. If you can't deal with his deficiencies any more your tone should be somewhat guarded and a little uneasy about our point production going forward, rather than the hypothetical quote above. As always, "in my opinion."
IF Sarge goes to a 'good' team, it has to be under one of three scenarios...

- He gets paid big bucks and his new, young-ish team who had plenty of cap space was ready to bust out and just needed him. It could happen. Think Colorado this past season.

- A good veteran team gives him 3-5 years to keep the cap hit down. I'd laugh out loud at this one, and then call them "suckas".

- A good veteran team acquires him, and moves out salary somewhere else.

Go to NJ, Sarge. Go play under Therrien again to make their power play better. That'll cost them Martin and Kovalchuk, in all likelihood. I'll take that trade-off.

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06-09-2010, 04:24 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
IF Sarge goes to a 'good' team, it has to be under one of three scenarios...

- He gets paid big bucks and his new, young-ish team who had plenty of cap space was ready to bust out and just needed him. It could happen. Think Colorado this past season.

- A good veteran team gives him 3-5 years to keep the cap hit down. I'd laugh out loud at this one, and then call them "suckas".

- A good veteran team acquires him, and moves out salary somewhere else.

Go to NJ, Sarge. Go play under Therrien again to make their power play better. That'll cost them Martin and Kovalchuk, in all likelihood. I'll take that trade-off.
I tried crunching the numbers for your Martin and Kovalchuk to the Pens scenario the other day... I couldn't even come close to making it work. How do you figure that's possible?

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06-09-2010, 04:34 PM
  #156
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I tried crunching the numbers for your Martin and Kovalchuk to the Pens scenario the other day... I couldn't even come close to making it work. How do you figure that's possible?
Moving out Kunitz is the way. This is just the latest example, with much room for variations...

Eric Tangradi ($845,833) - Sidney Crosby ($8.7 million) - Maxime Talbot ($1.05 million)
Ilya Kovalchuk (UFA=$7 million) - Evgeni Malkin ($8.7 million) - Stanislav Galiev (draft=$900,000)
Matt Cooke (UFA=$1.5 million) - Jordan Staal ($4 million) - Tyler Kennedy ($725,000)
Michael Rupp ($825,000) - Craig Adams ($550,000) - Eric Godard ($750,000)

Brooks Orpik ($3.75 million) - Paul Martin (UFA=$5 million)
Francis Bouillon (UFA=$900,000) - Kristopher Letang ($3.50 million)
Alex Goligoski ($1.833,333) - Aaron Ward (UFA=$1 million)
Deryk Engelland ($500,000)

Marc-Andre Fleury ($5 million)
Brent Johnson ($600,000)

= $57,992,167 million

Available cap space - $1.308,333 (based on projected $58.8 million salary cap for 2010-11)

In this model, our 2010 first rounder makes the team. You can replace him with Nick Johnson, though. In this model, Pascal Dupuis is moved because Matt Cooke is re-signed (my preference). There is cap space for both Cooke and Dupuis (and no draftee), if you prefer.

The key is landing two stopgap veteran defensemen along with Martin and Kovalchuk...and of course, convincing those two to sign as well. That would help.

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06-09-2010, 04:40 PM
  #157
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Jiggy, I doubt the 35+ rule is going to disappear. They'll likely grandfather it out if it's no longer a part of the next CBA, like how some rules were grandfathered in the last time.

Either way, I am not banking on the CBA to save our bacon on the Gonchar and Whitney issues.
I think the new CBA will bring back signing bonuses... and the guaranteed contracts will be out the window. Owners are pretty adamant about that.

I believe that:

Contracts will be open and re-negotiable...

Signing bonuses, will be prorated over the LV of a contract, and count agt. the cap, regardless of if a player is active or not.

This will give players a high percentage of upfront money and leave a lot of cap flexibility.

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06-09-2010, 04:44 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I agreed with everything else, except the above statement. We DO lack offensive threats, BRP. It's the theme of this off-season. Acquire more skill. I am not saying Gonchar is a must re-sign, because we cannot think that way imo. But his offense will have to be replaced somewhere.

How many current Penguins have the potential to produce 49+ points in 2010-11? The actual answer scares the hell out of me.
Touche JagSid.

But you definitely can't add those with 4 or 5M wrapped up in Gonchar, who is clearly diminishing. I would rather have more two way guys on the back end and improve the front lines than to bring Gonchar back and only be able to do minimal improvement.

My ideal situation would be adding one top 4 defender and one top six winger.

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06-09-2010, 05:34 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Moving out Kunitz is the way. This is just the latest example, with much room for variations...

Eric Tangradi ($845,833) - Sidney Crosby ($8.7 million) - Maxime Talbot ($1.05 million)
Ilya Kovalchuk (UFA=$7 million) - Evgeni Malkin ($8.7 million) - Stanislav Galiev (draft=$900,000)
Matt Cooke (UFA=$1.5 million) - Jordan Staal ($4 million) - Tyler Kennedy ($725,000)
Michael Rupp ($825,000) - Craig Adams ($550,000) - Eric Godard ($750,000)

Brooks Orpik ($3.75 million) - Paul Martin (UFA=$5 million)
Francis Bouillon (UFA=$900,000) - Kristopher Letang ($3.50 million)
Alex Goligoski ($1.833,333) - Aaron Ward (UFA=$1 million)
Deryk Engelland ($500,000)

Marc-Andre Fleury ($5 million)
Brent Johnson ($600,000)

= $57,992,167 million

Available cap space - $1.308,333 (based on projected $58.8 million salary cap for 2010-11)

In this model, our 2010 first rounder makes the team. You can replace him with Nick Johnson, though. In this model, Pascal Dupuis is moved because Matt Cooke is re-signed (my preference). There is cap space for both Cooke and Dupuis (and no draftee), if you prefer.

The key is landing two stopgap veteran defensemen along with Martin and Kovalchuk...and of course, convincing those two to sign as well. That would help.
Do you think that lineup is better than if the Penguins went for more affordable forwards instead of Kovalchuk? Like Whitney and some other UFA winger, for example? Also, how do you get rid of Kunitz without taking on salary? Include him in a package to move up in the first round, perhaps?

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06-09-2010, 06:20 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think the new CBA will bring back signing bonuses... and the guaranteed contracts will be out the window. Owners are pretty adamant about that.

I believe that:

Contracts will be open and re-negotiable...

Signing bonuses, will be prorated over the LV of a contract, and count agt. the cap, regardless of if a player is active or not.

This will give players a high percentage of upfront money and leave a lot of cap flexibility.
How do you know about this? Not that I don't believe you. I like the fact the contracts will be open and re-negotiable.

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06-09-2010, 06:33 PM
  #161
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How do you know about this? Not that I don't believe you. I like the fact the contracts will be open and re-negotiable.
I think he was just speculating. Like saying he thinks that it might end up happening that way. Is that right, Jiggy?

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06-09-2010, 06:43 PM
  #162
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I think he was just speculating. Like saying he thinks that it might end up happening that way. Is that right, Jiggy?
I know a guy who is related to a guy who delivered pizza to Gary Bettman's mom...

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06-09-2010, 06:50 PM
  #163
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I know a guy who is related to a guy who delivered pizza to Gary Bettman's mom...
I thought the Devil was born of a Jackel?

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06-09-2010, 07:03 PM
  #164
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I thought the Devil was born of a Jackel?
Turtle, actually.

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06-10-2010, 08:52 AM
  #165
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How about some garbage-bin defenders for a year, while our youngsters continue to develop? Since, you know, we actually have defensemen to develop, as opposed to wingers.
Because you can't win a cup with a garbage-bin defense.

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06-10-2010, 09:10 AM
  #166
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Because you can't win a cup with a garbage-bin defense.
Haha. This is hockey's FUTURE, but dear Christ. Some people would like to **** the bed now only to have a chance to win it later.

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06-10-2010, 02:30 PM
  #167
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Please, no more old men...how pathetic is our fanbase when we salivate at the mouth for RAY WHITNEY? Come on people. Snap together. Hes 38 and his best years are behind him...

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06-10-2010, 03:01 PM
  #168
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Please, no more old men...how pathetic is our fanbase when we salivate at the mouth for RAY WHITNEY? Come on people. Snap together. Hes 38 and his best years are behind him...
Because next to Hossa, he would instantly be the best winger to ever flank Crosby/Malkin.

If anyone who watched him play in the NHL and Worlds this season, thinks he is old and out of gas, they simply have no clue.

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06-10-2010, 03:27 PM
  #169
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Yeah, I mean... he isn't, like, Guerin old. I watched him a decent bit this year. I know some people don't like the fact that his numbers dipped significantly but Carolina was awful for much of the year and missing their best forward to injury for a decent stretch.

But he still has great skating ability, had no problem keeping up with the play of guys 10 years or more younger than him and still has excellent vision and a great shot. He was also deadly on the man advantage.

I get that people are leery of someone who is pushing 40... but Whitney has at least one really good season and probably two left in him. As Jiggy pointed out, he was also stellar in the Worlds after playing an entire regular season, too... so he's obviously in great shape.

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06-10-2010, 03:39 PM
  #170
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Please, no more old men...how pathetic is our fanbase when we salivate at the mouth for RAY WHITNEY? Come on people. Snap together. Hes 38 and his best years are behind him...
How could you not want Ray Whitney. Sure, he's not young but you do know that we want to try and win a Cup next year, right? He'd be an awesome fit here, IMO.

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06-10-2010, 04:14 PM
  #171
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my line up:


Kunitz(3.75) Crosby(8.7) Byfuglien(3)
Whitney(3) Malkin(8.7) Tangradi(0.875)
Dupuis(1.4) Staal(4) Kennedy(0.75)
Rupp(0.875) Talbot(1.1) Adams(0.55)
Godard(0.75)


Orpik(3.75) Letang(3.5)
(3) (1.7)
Gogo(1.8) (1.0)
Lovejoy(0.5)

MAF(5)
Johnsen(0.6)


not shure on all the cap numbers, but with a 58.8 cap limit, this leavs about 500.000 in cap space.
I know allot of you guys would swap Byfuglien with Versteeg, but after the playoff i would personaly rather have Buff. Big, strong, righty, and would defenetly uppgrade our powerplay

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06-10-2010, 06:42 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
IF Sarge goes to a 'good' team, it has to be under one of three scenarios...

- He gets paid big bucks and his new, young-ish team who had plenty of cap space was ready to bust out and just needed him. It could happen. Think Colorado this past season.

- A good veteran team gives him 3-5 years to keep the cap hit down. I'd laugh out loud at this one, and then call them "suckas".

- A good veteran team acquires him, and moves out salary somewhere else.

Go to NJ, Sarge. Go play under Therrien again to make their power play better. That'll cost them Martin and Kovalchuk, in all likelihood. I'll take that trade-off.
We aren't in a position to negotiate trades, Gonchar is UFA.

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06-10-2010, 06:56 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by LiffLaff View Post
my line up:


Kunitz(3.75) Crosby(8.7) Byfuglien(3)
Whitney(3) Malkin(8.7) Tangradi(0.875)
Dupuis(1.4) Staal(4) Kennedy(0.75)
Rupp(0.875) Talbot(1.1) Adams(0.55)
Godard(0.75)


Orpik(3.75) Letang(3.5)
(3) (1.7)
Gogo(1.8) (1.0)
Lovejoy(0.5)

MAF(5)
Johnsen(0.6)


not shure on all the cap numbers, but with a 58.8 cap limit, this leavs about 500.000 in cap space.
I know allot of you guys would swap Byfuglien with Versteeg, but after the playoff i would personaly rather have Buff. Big, strong, righty, and would defenetly uppgrade our powerplay
How are we getting Byfuglien, exactly? Remember, he's right now as expensive as he's ever been and his market value couldn't be higher. We'd have to overpay right now, imo.

The defense would work nicely that way money-wise, but who are we getting for a total of $4.7 million that can be a nice No. 2 pairing? Seems a tad unrealistic.

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06-10-2010, 06:57 PM
  #174
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We aren't in a position to negotiate trades, Gonchar is UFA.
You can deal his rights. That wasn't my point. My point was if the Devils lose Kovalchuk and Martin to free agency, and gain Gonchar, they end up losing out in the end.

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06-10-2010, 07:16 PM
  #175
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Please, no more old men...how pathetic is our fanbase when we salivate at the mouth for RAY WHITNEY? Come on people. Snap together. Hes 38 and his best years are behind him...
So what young winger who can produce similar to what Whitney can is available for a similar cost that you suggest the Pens go for instead?

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