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Old
06-08-2010, 04:54 PM
  #401
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saying Pittsburgh dominated mtl is ****ing retarded. stop making a fool of yourself lematheux

WSH yes, pittbarg no

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06-08-2010, 04:55 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Am I correct in thinking you don't think size or team toughness has anything to do with it, potentially?
It's possible, but the big guys get torched as much as the small guys, so I don't think so. The team was actually at its best by this metric when Cammy played with Gomez and Gionta (remember how good they were at keeping the puck in the offensive zone?) so a small line ought to be able to succeed. I've got no objection to adding size, so long as it's attached to real 5-on-5 talent (ie. Artyukhin is not the answer) and seeing if that helps.

I really think it's strategic. Or execution, but I think the problem is the passive system that doesn't promote puck possession. You can see it to the naked eye (it was a big topic of conversation in mid-season, even if it's vanished now that Martin "took us" to the ECF) but the stats really do confirm that the Habs really aren't good with zone time.

The big guy mucking in front though, doesn't really help your puck possession. In the corners, he might, but the guy standing in front of the net is really hoping to benefit from his pals' puck possession (another reason why trying to turn Lats into Holmstrom, rather than Penner, was stupid.) So size may help, but it needs to be directed well; driving the net all the time won't help these stats, they're about puck possession.

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06-08-2010, 04:56 PM
  #403
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The Pens (as the Caps) were terrible against us, but if they had played decently, they wouldn't have much problems beating us. Talent-wise we're not in the same league.

Halak and luck were the reasons we went this far.

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06-08-2010, 04:57 PM
  #404
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saying Pittsburgh dominated mtl is ****ing retarded. stop making a fool of yourself lematheux
Some of the games were actually worse than Washington. There was one game they outchanced the Habs 22-7 and another, 25-11. They lost both those games. It was unreal.

And if that's not dominating, I don't know how you'd define the term. I mean, 22-7, you should win that game 99% of the time.

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06-08-2010, 05:03 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Some of the games were actually worse than Washington. There was one game they outchanced the Habs 22-7 and another, 25-11. They lost both those games. It was unreal.

And if that's not dominating, I don't know how you'd define the term. I mean, 22-7, you should win that game 99% of the time.
WSH series was domination

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06-08-2010, 05:04 PM
  #406
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WSH series was domination
So was PIT. Except Game 7, which was very atypical of the series and Montreal was legitimately pasting Pittsburgh for the first 40 minutes or so.

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06-08-2010, 05:16 PM
  #407
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Because a big, necessary part of why they won was Halak goaling so well that if he were to do it over years, he'd be the best goalie of all time, and the Habs' shooters making their shots at a pace that Ilya Kovalchuk couldn't match. These are simply not things the Habs can keep up in the long term. No team, in the history of the NHL, have managed to keep that level of performance up.

If the system relies on these things, it may have worked once, but it'll need more than "a few adjustments" for their successes to continue.
DONT MANIPULATE other people's post......

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06-08-2010, 05:18 PM
  #408
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Because a big, necessary part of why they won was Halak goaling so well that if he were to do it over years, he'd be the best goalie of all time, and the Habs' shooters making their shots at a pace that Ilya Kovalchuk couldn't match. These are simply not things the Habs can keep up in the long term. No team, in the history of the NHL, have managed to keep that level of performance up.

If the system relies on these things, it may have worked once, but it'll need more than "a few adjustments" for their successes to continue.
This was my original quote

Why not? It was not perfect but they had a ligitimate system which worked well. They were able to identify who fits and who does not....they found themselves as hockey players as well.....why would that not survive into next year? A few adjustments needs to be done but we made the final 4.....26 other teams cannot say so.....

Heck, you speak of blinders....but I think you were mearly reflecting your personal situation!


Stick to the fact instead of manipulating other people's post to try to make yourself look good.....

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06-08-2010, 05:22 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I don't think he is trying to downplay what we did. He himself enjoyed every minute of it, he just thinks it's unlikely to continue. I agree with him to a degree.

I think we can make the playoffs and pull off an upset or two again, but I don't think we have what it takes to go the distance. Against Philly we looked like we burnt every ounce of energy we had. There was nothing left in the tank.

It was an admirable performance, but I don't think it elevates us into elite status, just because we were one of the last 4 left, we easily could of been the 1st eliminated if not for Halak against the Caps.
Thank god you and Mathman are not part of the hab's management....We are not that far off and we did manage to finish in the top 4.....a few adjustments here, a few adjustments there.....MARKOV back to health...and we are ready for another run...

Real Habs fans are rejoicing....miserable people will find yet another way to spew their hate....such is the nature of humans.....such typical freudian patern....

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06-08-2010, 06:14 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's possible, but the big guys get torched as much as the small guys, so I don't think so. The team was actually at its best by this metric when Cammy played with Gomez and Gionta (remember how good they were at keeping the puck in the offensive zone?) so a small line ought to be able to succeed. I've got no objection to adding size, so long as it's attached to real 5-on-5 talent (ie. Artyukhin is not the answer) and seeing if that helps.

I really think it's strategic. Or execution, but I think the problem is the passive system that doesn't promote puck possession. You can see it to the naked eye (it was a big topic of conversation in mid-season, even if it's vanished now that Martin "took us" to the ECF) but the stats really do confirm that the Habs really aren't good with zone time.

The big guy mucking in front though, doesn't really help your puck possession. In the corners, he might, but the guy standing in front of the net is really hoping to benefit from his pals' puck possession (another reason why trying to turn Lats into Holmstrom, rather than Penner, was stupid.) So size may help, but it needs to be directed well; driving the net all the time won't help these stats, they're about puck possession.
I meant do you think it would address an overall team need, I know it's unlikely to improve puck possession

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06-08-2010, 06:15 PM
  #411
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To be fair, I should do that too. I really AM a dolt.
So you would preferred to lose both series? Even Martin said last year he focused on the defense side of the game because with a lot of new players, its tough to create instant offense and thus he mentioned in the end season report that next year his focus will be on the offense.

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06-08-2010, 06:17 PM
  #412
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Thank god you and Mathman are not part of the hab's management....We are not that far off and we did manage to finish in the top 4.....a few adjustments here, a few adjustments there.....MARKOV back to health...and we are ready for another run...

Real Habs fans are rejoicing....miserable people will find yet another way to spew their hate....such is the nature of humans.....such typical freudian patern....
Whatever, getting outshot 2-1 is not a winning recipe and sustained success is unlikely.
We are still a long way off, it took everything this team had to win two rounds, which is to be expected when you spend most of it running around in your own zone, they boys were dead tired from the pounding they took if the first 2 rds.

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06-08-2010, 06:36 PM
  #413
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Why not? It was not perfect but they had a ligitimate system which worked well. They were able to identify who fits and who does not....they found themselves as hockey players as well.....why would that not survive into next year? A few adjustments needs to be done but we made the final 4.....26 other teams cannot say so.....
And I answer exactly the same:

"Because a big, necessary part of why they won was Halak goaling so well that if he were to do it over years, he'd be the best goalie of all time, and the Habs' shooters making their shots at a pace that Ilya Kovalchuk couldn't match. These are simply not things the Habs can keep up in the long term. No team, in the history of the NHL, have managed to keep that level of performance up.

If the system relies on these things, it may have worked once, but it'll need more than "a few adjustments" for their successes to continue."

I didn't mean to manipulate anything. People can click on the little red square to go read your post in their entirety. I am merely trying to maintain brevity.

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06-08-2010, 06:37 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I meant do you think it would address an overall team need, I know it's unlikely to improve puck possession
I don't know if it would address a need or not... but unless it helps with puck posession and 5-on-5 control-of-play, it wouldn't address the team's most significant need.

The way they're playing, frankly, I think size would just go to waste. It wasn't the reason they didn't get many scoring chances all playoffs.


Last edited by MathMan: 06-08-2010 at 06:45 PM.
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06-08-2010, 06:44 PM
  #415
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So you would preferred to lose both series? Even Martin said last year he focused on the defense side of the game because with a lot of new players, its tough to create instant offense and thus he mentioned in the end season report that next year his focus will be on the offense.
Oh, not really, no. I mean, it did lower our draft position but I don't think it's particularly meaningful, and it was fun to watch and allowed us to test Subban in a critical role, so there were a lot of benefits... so long as the management doesn't do what the typical fan is doing, say "we got to the ECF, we're really close, all we need to do is little tweaks" and neglects to address the team's real problems.

One such problem is that Martin's system, by focussing on "defense" so much, he's shot his defense in the foot. All the Habs do is try to keep the opponent from getting good scoring chances in the offensive zone... all game. So eventually, because they get so many cracks, the opposition generates several scoring chances... and the Habs, because they seldom have the puck, don't. By focussing so much on defending in the defensive zone, they're actually hurting their overall defense over the course of a game. Take any one shift that the opponent passes in the Habs' zone and it will look good most of the time, but if the opponent spends 40 minutes-plus in the Habs' zone, those infrequent breakdowns start to add up.

If the puck is at the other end, or even in the neutral zone, then the opponent isn't scoring. That's a crucial part of modern hockey defense. The trap worked well because by clogging the neutral zone you prevented the opponent from taking the puck into your zone. Puck possession systems work defensively because you have the puck so the opponent doesn't.

This is the part of modern hockey that Martin doesn't seem to grok... although hopefully, as you say, it was step two of the process. But I don't think so; if it were, I'd have thought we'd see some amount of implementation this year, but they spent the Washington and Pittsburgh series doing the same old same old.

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06-08-2010, 07:02 PM
  #416
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Whatever, getting outshot 2-1 is not a winning recipe and sustained success is unlikely.
We are still a long way off, it took everything this team had to win two rounds, which is to be expected when you spend most of it running around in your own zone, they boys were dead tired from the pounding they took if the first 2 rds.
Ask Boston or Vancouver if they were tired.......I think its a silly way to look at it.....

our ace was out (Markov) and yet we managed to make it to the top 4.....We had to composed with injuries (I am convinced that Pouliot was not healthy, Gill was obviously not himself when he came back....and others also looked beat up) and the Kostie bros who were thoroughly useless.....It is obvious that with Markov back, Subban replacing Mara and the Kostie replaced or re-energized....we would be far more prepared to repeat.....add to that a signing (we have a bit of money) and we may indeed be very close to a SC contender.....

Of course, if you want to look for problems, you will find them.....even with the eventual SC champions.....

It is unfortunate that you cannot even take until July 1st to rejoice in the nice gift we got from our team during the playoffs.....some of you are just programmed to be critical, no matter what......

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06-08-2010, 07:19 PM
  #417
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Ask Boston or Vancouver if they were tired.......I think its a silly way to look at it.....

our ace was out (Markov) and yet we managed to make it to the top 4.....We had to composed with injuries (I am convinced that Pouliot was not healthy, Gill was obviously not himself when he came back....and others also looked beat up) and the Kostie bros who were thoroughly useless.....It is obvious that with Markov back, Subban replacing Mara and the Kostie replaced or re-energized....we would be far more prepared to repeat.....add to that a signing (we have a bit of money) and we may indeed be very close to a SC contender.....

Of course, if you want to look for problems, you will find them.....even with the eventual SC champions.....

It is unfortunate that you cannot even take until July 1st to rejoice in the nice gift we got from our team during the playoffs.....some of you are just programmed to be critical, no matter what......

Listen dude, I'd enjoyed every minute of our run, it's over now and time to look at ways to improve our team.

If you think this past run represents where we are likely to finish again next year there is a very good chance you'll be disappointed.

Just because I don't agree with every decision management makes or drink the kool aid all the time, like some, doesn't make me any less of a fan. I'm trying to be realistic and this team needs some real improvements to make it all the way.

Since you think I'm being critical without reason, explain why we were shutout 3 out of 5 games to the Flyers and badly outplayed by our first two opponents?

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06-08-2010, 08:08 PM
  #418
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It's not a personnel problem.

The Habs make their players worse. It's actually quite frightening how the underlying puck possession numbers for the new acquisitions took a nosedive upon joining the Habs -- Gomez's drop is especially scary considering the lofty heights he was at with these stats, but Cammy and Gionta and Spacek also took big drops. Players leaving the Habs also generally see a boost in their puck possession metrics... turns out Martin isn't really worse than Carbonneau at this (and how much of a compliment is that?)

Martin had a much better roster than he allowed to show. The team underachieved the roster's potential, and significantly at that.

Until the Habs solves this blackhole effect the team has on their player, they're not improving, regardless of who's on their roster. And their best chance for short-term improvement just walked over to Tampa to whip that team into shape.
I think your overrating our roster quite a bit. I mean I knew this group had talent and potential but let's be honest, this team was never a world beater. It didn't have the talent to dominate and become a puck possession machine that Martin initially advertised.

We didn't have the size to own the boards, not enough individual skill and strength to hold on to the puck and we didn't have enough offensive talent on our backend to either keep the puck in or get shots through. I don't think you can compare how these players did with another team regarding this stat simply because puck possession involves all 5 players. Collectively, this team just doesn't have the make up to be great at it unless roster changes are implemented during the off season.

Whereas you thought we under achieved, I think we overachieved immensely. Being huge underdogs versus Caps and Pens, we still come out on top, and no I don't think Halak was the SOLE reason we got as far as we did though he obviously played a critical role in it. Martin saw the strength of the team, used it to his advantage and gave the players a chance to win every night. They got as far as they could, Philly was just a bad style match up. Although if Boston hadn't choked, I'm confident Martin would be coaching in cup finals as we speak.

If there's one thing I may criticize Martin on, it was his handling of the younger players and his inability to get AKost or Pouliot in a constant rythm (although the player is obviously not absolved of any blame). The guy's not perfect and some of his decisions do raise questions. These questions, however, were more roster oriented rather than system specifics. I have no quarrel with the latter.

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06-08-2010, 08:18 PM
  #419
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I think your overrating our roster quite a bit. I mean I knew this group had talent and potential but let's be honest, this team was never a world beater. It didn't have the talent to dominate and become a puck possession machine that Martin initially advertised.
Even if that were true, did it really have to go completely in the opposite direction? I mean, Gainey imported a bunch of guys with really good puck possession stats and they all, ALL went to pot.

I really do think the roster was significantly better than it was made to look this year. I mean, maybe it's not good enough to be great, but I don't think "decent" is beyond its ability.

I've pointed it out before, the Habs have great special team and great goaltending and godawful 5-on-5. If their five on five was even "mediocre", they'd be a force to be reckoned with with the other elements. I don't think "below average" is asking for too much is it?

I think that in terms of quality of even-strength play, the Habs overachieved a lot. They were one of the worst teams in the NHL at it, and I just don't think that their roster is that bad.

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06-08-2010, 08:47 PM
  #420
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I didn't go through this whole thread but what did Ozy have to say about this turn of events? That is if he even posted in this thread....

Good luck Guy but not when playing the Habs...

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06-08-2010, 08:55 PM
  #421
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No PC tomorrow at T.B

http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/300362.html

nothing is signed yet

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06-08-2010, 08:56 PM
  #422
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RDS with somebody in Tampa Bay that just reported that no press conference is scheduled yet and no contracts have seen signed....yet.

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06-08-2010, 09:04 PM
  #423
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RDS with somebody in Tampa Bay that just reported that no press conference is scheduled yet and no contracts have seen signed....yet.
I also heard that Ruefrontenac refused to properly source their source...something like that, its starting a whole hoopla vs RDS, TSN and other medias.

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06-08-2010, 09:06 PM
  #424
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Even if that were true, did it really have to go completely in the opposite direction? I mean, Gainey imported a bunch of guys with really good puck possession stats and they all, ALL went to pot.

I really do think the roster was significantly better than it was made to look this year. I mean, maybe it's not good enough to be great, but I don't think "decent" is beyond its ability.

I've pointed it out before, the Habs have great special team and great goaltending and godawful 5-on-5. If their five on five was even "mediocre", they'd be a force to be reckoned with with the other elements. I don't think "below average" is asking for too much is it?

I think that in terms of quality of even-strength play, the Habs overachieved a lot. They were one of the worst teams in the NHL at it, and I just don't think that their roster is that bad.
I don't either. But I do think that the players they brought are simply not capable of carrying the line by themselves or even in pairs. They need that third component on the line that complements them since they just aren't skilled enough to drag any passengers along. We've seen flashes of brilliance from our acquisitions when AK and Pouliot contribute. Either we find a way to get them going or we look elsewhere. Regardless, we're talking about roster holes rather than a faulty system.

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06-08-2010, 09:07 PM
  #425
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I also heard that Ruefrontenac refused to properly source their source...something like that, its starting a whole hoopla vs RDS, TSN and other medias.
RDS saying that there's no press conference tomorrow 'cause....it's Game 6. Most likely a press conference Thursday.

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