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Wild's Fletcher has his work cut out for him

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Old
06-09-2010, 02:01 PM
  #51
nickschultzfan
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Originally Posted by saywut View Post
My problem is we don't have a true #1 d-man. And don't give me the Burns crap, he hasn't shown anything consistent enough to consider him a #1 d-man. Zidlicky is near a liability defensively, and Zanon/Barker/Stoner are poor(and in Barker's case, extremely poor) skaters.
So? This instead NHL 10.

How many "#1" Dmen are there actually in the NHL? 5, 10, maybe?

And of those 5-10, how many of those teams have balanced D corps behind that #1 Dman? 2? 3?

Like I said, the Wild's blueline IS better than the majority of the NHL. It is easily in the top-10. And it is signed for a very reasonable cap hit. That's a very good thing.

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06-09-2010, 02:15 PM
  #52
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From DobberHockey:

Nick Schultz 2008-09
52.32% EV 5 JOHNSSON,KIM - 55 SCHULTZ,NICK
21.06% EV 8 BURNS,BRENT - 55 SCHULTZ,NICK
8.27% EV 55 SCHULTZ,NICK - 41 SKOULA,MARTIN

Nick Schultz 2009-10
31.39% EV 5 JOHNSSON,KIM - 55 SCHULTZ,NICK
24.46% EV 34 HNIDY,SHANE - 55 SCHULTZ,NICK
19.91% EV 8 BURNS,BRENT - 55 SCHULTZ,NICK
7.72% EV 55 SCHULTZ,NICK - 6 ZANON,GREG
6.63% EV 55 SCHULTZ,NICK - 3 ZIDLICKY,MAREK
3.16% EV 55 SCHULTZ,NICK - 36 SCOTT,JOHN
2.98% EV 55 SCHULTZ,NICK - 26 SIFERS,JAIME

So basically under Lemaire, he spent most of his time paired up with Johnsson, spent a fair amount of time with Burns, and spent a bit of time with Skoula.

Under Richards, he spent a lot of time with Johnsson again, a lot of time on the third pairing with Hnidy, some time with Burns, and then just a mish-mash of other players.

Most importantly, toward the end of the year, Burns played with Barker, Zanon played with Zidlicky, and Schultz played with Hnidy.



From NHL.com,

Under Lemaire, Schultz was:
- 4th in total ice time
- 3rd in ES ice time
- 1st in PK ice time
- 8th in PP ice time (only 3 seconds per game)

Under Richards, Schultz was:
- 6th in total ice time
- 5th in ES ice time
- 4th in PK ice time
- 7th in PP ice time (behind Noreau and Prosser, so 5th if you only count regulars)

His responsibility in all situations dropped, except for the PP. So yes, he's a 3rd pairing defenseman any way you want to look at it, and he's no longer the PK specialist he was before (Zanon is).



And if you're questioning Todd Richards' coaching based on his use of Nick Schultz, boy that's strange. You're in effect saying we need to build the roster and coaching system around an average defenseman who contributes very little offense?

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06-09-2010, 02:25 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kari Takko View Post
Define #1 D-man for me. Identify guys who fit your definition, and then average their salaries.

Keep in mind, this article was written about our strength at D and how we might leverage that to improve our forward depth.
#1 D-man would be a guy who can play 25 minutes a game regularly, plays routinely against the other team's top lines, kills penalties, produces a lot of offense, and typically has gaudy +/- numbers to show for it.

Guys that jump to mind are Keith (5.55), Doughty (3.475), Pronger (6.25), Lidstrom (7.45), Niedermayer (6.75), Chara (7.5), Weber (4.5), Bouwmeester (6.68), Phaneuf (6.5)...some are better than others. Doughty's still on his entry deal though so it looks low in comparison, but the average is probably in the $6-7m range.

And I'm pretty sure Russo meant our depth at D in the future compared to now...Cuma, Scandella, Prosser, Stoner, and Noreau are guys that could be NHL players but probably not this year. Burns, Zanon, Zidlicky, Schultz, and Barker are guys that (with the exception of Zanon) all had pretty weak years and need to step it up.

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06-09-2010, 02:50 PM
  #54
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I've said it before, you trade Schultz, you have nobody to match up against the quicker offensive forwards on the other team.

Get used to Zidlicky and Burns being put into roles in which they shouldn't be.

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06-09-2010, 03:11 PM
  #55
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We've still got Zanon, Barker, and Stoner.

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06-09-2010, 03:16 PM
  #56
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If we got rid of Schultz, we'd be in a great position with all of the cap savings. He's a good player, but he's replaceable.

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06-09-2010, 03:24 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
We've still got Zanon, Barker, and Stoner.
Neither of them is quick, at all.

If you want to dump salary, dump forward contracts before Dman contracts.

Bouchard and Miettinen should both be taken off the books before Schultz.

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06-09-2010, 03:31 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Neither of them is quick, at all.

If you want to dump salary, dump forward contracts before Dman contracts.

Bouchard and Miettinen should both be taken off the books before Schultz.
Has been discussed ad nauseam. We can't get his contract off the books unless he's on the LTIR. Him being on that doesn't really help the team much either. They can't really spend that money incase Bouchard would happen to come off LTIR, we would be forced to dump salary to get back under the cap.

Our best option to dumping salary at forward would be Miettinen, which you mentioned above. I don't see any teams wanting to acquire him with his salary. You would have to package him with something, preferably not a pick unless your getting a good prospect or pick in return. So who are you going to pack with Mitts? Schultz or possibly Harding?

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06-09-2010, 03:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
We've still got Zanon, Barker, and Stoner.
Stoner is injury prone (has never finished a season without an injury), Barker is a major bust...Yay! For Zanon for a year.

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06-09-2010, 03:39 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MinneWildSota View Post
Has been discussed ad nauseam. We can't get his contract off the books unless he's on the LTIR. Him being on that doesn't really help the team much either. They can't really spend that money incase Bouchard would happen to come off LTIR, we would be forced to dump salary to get back under the cap.

Our best option to dumping salary at forward would be Miettinen, which you mentioned above. I don't see any teams wanting to acquire him with his salary. You would have to package him with something, preferably not a pick unless your getting a good prospect or pick in return. So who are you going to pack with Mitts? Schultz or possibly Harding?
Teams like Atlanta, Florida, Tampa, Carolina, Nashville, San Jose, Islanders, Pens, etc would be interested in Miettinens if the price is low enough.

He's a cheap option for teams looking to add secondary scoring in their 2nd and 3rd lines.

I've also stated that a Miettinen + Harding for Boyes trade would be good for both teams. Yeah, we add salary, but that's a upgrade for Koivu's RW.

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06-09-2010, 03:57 PM
  #61
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Which is why our blue line isn't as great as some people make it out to be. Burns is a spastic offensive guy, Zidlicky is a pure offensive guy, Zanon is a pure defensive guy, Schultz is just mediocre all around, and Stoner is injury prone.

I don't think it's fair to call Barker a bust at this point. He put up 40 points in 68 games last year as a PP specialist with Chicago. And yes, he sucked down the stretch for the Wild, but had a foot injury that could have easily killed his skating. We'll see just how good or bad he is next year.

Either way, I don't think you can say we're all set for next year and trading Schultz is going to collapse the entire team. Johnsson was far more important to the squad, and we certainly see how bad the team was without him. Most of these guys are role players. Fletcher is banking on Burns and Barker to be the top pairing combo we need, but if Burns gets injured again and Barker does indeed suck, we had sure better hope Scandella, Cuma, Prosser, and the rest of our D prospects pan out. Those guys still have the potential to be top four defensemen.

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06-09-2010, 04:37 PM
  #62
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The Oilers have 3 defensemen for next year. 4 if you count on a rookie making the team, and I'd have to think they'd be interested in any one of Burns, Zanon, Schultz, Zidlicky, or Barker. I know I would be if I were in Tambellini's shoes (and in that order too). I'd probably take Miettinen too. He's pretty good defensively, he'd be a good replacement for Moreau on the 3rd line, and his contract is up after next year. The Oilers shouldn't be in any cap trouble for next year as long as they don't take back too much salary in whatever trade they make for Souray.


But are the Wild even in any sort of cap trouble, or are they operating under a lower, self imposed budget? The cap is supposedly going up about $2M, and if you assume Latendresse will come in around $2M, Harding for around $1.5M, and they bring back Nolan or someone else for around $1.75M (are those numbers reasonable?), then the Wild will be ~$7M under the cap with only a 7th defenseman and 13th forward to sign. Why is it so imperative that they get out from under Schultz and PMB's contracts?


Last edited by misfit: 06-09-2010 at 04:59 PM.
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06-09-2010, 05:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
So? This instead NHL 10.

How many "#1" Dmen are there actually in the NHL? 5, 10, maybe?

And of those 5-10, how many of those teams have balanced D corps behind that #1 Dman? 2? 3?

Like I said, the Wild's blueline IS better than the majority of the NHL. It is easily in the top-10. And it is signed for a very reasonable cap hit. That's a very good thing.
But we really don't have a balanced corps. Should I really make a list of d-men right now I'd consider better than our best d-man? As for balance behind them, alot of teams don't have 6 d-men currently signed on one-way contracts so its alot harder to predict their opening day line-ups.

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06-09-2010, 06:09 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
The Oilers have 3 defensemen for next year. 4 if you count on a rookie making the team, and I'd have to think they'd be interested in any one of Burns, Zanon, Schultz, Zidlicky, or Barker. I know I would be if I were in Tambellini's shoes (and in that order too). I'd probably take Miettinen too. He's pretty good defensively, he'd be a good replacement for Moreau on the 3rd line, and his contract is up after next year. The Oilers shouldn't be in any cap trouble for next year as long as they don't take back too much salary in whatever trade they make for Souray.


But are the Wild even in any sort of cap trouble, or are they operating under a lower, self imposed budget? The cap is supposedly going up about $2M, and if you assume Latendresse will come in around $2M, Harding for around $1.5M, and they bring back Nolan or someone else for around $1.75M (are those numbers reasonable?), then the Wild will be ~$7M under the cap with only a 7th defenseman and 13th forward to sign. Why is it so imperative that they get out from under Schultz and PMB's contracts?

i'd say our cap is LTIR imposed--we can't play with Bouchard's $4.5 cap hit as much as we would like. Our team is definitely missing that $4.5 million dollars--or rather the player it can buy. IMO Lats will be able to get an arbitrator to give him at least $3 million if it comes to that. I don't think Nolan is coming back (and probably not at a discount if he does). They're trying to shop harding so I would guess our backup would take even less money, though, so we save some there.

I'd love to shove Zidlicky the Oiler's way.

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06-09-2010, 06:11 PM
  #65
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Easily top 10? in what, shots allowed?

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06-09-2010, 06:43 PM
  #66
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Zidlicky has a NTC and is far harder to replace than Schultz.

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06-09-2010, 07:10 PM
  #67
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Zidlicky has a NTC and is far harder to replace than Schultz.
bergeron will bring more offense at a cheaper price. we clearly aren't worried about defense, so why not? don't know if Bergeron would be as welcome back in Oil country--they're probably still holding a grudge for him crippling Rolli

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06-09-2010, 09:16 PM
  #68
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Lets not act as if Schultz and Hnidy played against any meaningful opposition. Playing as poorly as they did against the bottom two lines is as much of a black mark as any.
There's a reason Hnidy was playing as a #6. There's also a reason Schultz was there to save his butt.

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From DobberHockey:
His responsibility in all situations dropped, except for the PP. So yes, he's a 3rd pairing defenseman any way you want to look at it, and he's no longer the PK specialist he was before (Zanon is).

And if you're questioning Todd Richards' coaching based on his use of Nick Schultz, boy that's strange.
Again, thanks to Todd Richards. He goes from being that guy for years and years to all of a sudden it's cut-and-dried that he's not?

You bet I'm questioning Todd Richards over Jacques Lemaire. You should be too.

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We've still got Zanon, Barker, and Stoner.
None have the skills of Schultz to fill that role. You need mobility and durability to do that. Zanon and Barker have little of the mobility. Stoner has no durability.

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Originally Posted by Kari Takko View Post
If we got rid of Schultz, we'd be in a great position with all of the cap savings. He's a good player, but he's replaceable.
Replaceable, yes. Realistically replaceable? No. You can "replace" any player. But whether it makes you better is quite another. If you're all in to replacing Schultz, we might as well look at doing that for the whole team too.

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06-09-2010, 09:27 PM
  #69
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If Bouchard were to come off LTIR, and then be waived without anyone picking him up, would his cap hit come off the books?

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06-09-2010, 09:29 PM
  #70
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There's a reason Hnidy was playing as a #6. There's also a reason Schultz was there to save his butt.
Yep. It's a good thing the Wild have Nick Schultz back there to protect the team against those big bad third and forth liners.

Let's be honest here. The real reason as to why Nick Schultz was playing on the bottom pairing is because his play under this new regime dictated as much. Go ahead and question the coaching staff if you wish. But Schultz was given a great opportunity to prove himself as a reliable option and just flat out didn't do it.

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If Bouchard were to come off LTIR, and then be waived without anyone picking him up, would his cap hit come off the books?
Well, if you waive him and no one picked him up he'd be sent to Houston. His contract would be off the NHL books so to speak, but ownership would still be paying his salary. It's hard to say whether or not they'd be willing to do that. It's an awfully big number to absorb when you're literally getting no return for all that money.

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06-09-2010, 09:32 PM
  #71
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The Oilers have 3 defensemen for next year. 4 if you count on a rookie making the team, and I'd have to think they'd be interested in any one of Burns, Zanon, Schultz, Zidlicky, or Barker. I know I would be if I were in Tambellini's shoes (and in that order too). I'd probably take Miettinen too. He's pretty good defensively, he'd be a good replacement for Moreau on the 3rd line, and his contract is up after next year. The Oilers shouldn't be in any cap trouble for next year as long as they don't take back too much salary in whatever trade they make for Souray.


But are the Wild even in any sort of cap trouble, or are they operating under a lower, self imposed budget? The cap is supposedly going up about $2M, and if you assume Latendresse will come in around $2M, Harding for around $1.5M, and they bring back Nolan or someone else for around $1.75M (are those numbers reasonable?), then the Wild will be ~$7M under the cap with only a 7th defenseman and 13th forward to sign. Why is it so imperative that they get out from under Schultz and PMB's contracts?
It's partially due to having to float PMB's contract and partially due to the fact that many people do not like to have overpaid players on their club. And the Wild have four defensemen making over $3 million and few promising young players in the pipeline.

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06-09-2010, 09:40 PM
  #72
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Well, if you waive him and no one picked him up he'd be sent to Houston. His contract would be off the NHL books so to speak, but ownership would still be paying his salary. It's hard to say whether or not they'd be willing to do that. It's an awfully big number to absorb when you're literally getting no return for all that money.
Well, maybe they could use it as a way to rehab for a season. If somebody picks him up, great. Problem solved. If not, he's rehabbing in Houston for a year. He'll, maybe sone of the young kids could learn how to create offensively if he were down there.

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06-09-2010, 09:48 PM
  #73
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Well, maybe they could use it as a way to rehab for a season. If somebody picks him up, great. Problem solved. If not, he's rehabbing in Houston for a year. He'll, maybe sone of the young kids could learn how to create offensively if he were down there.
The thing is, though, (assuming the Wild would use that cap space vacated by sending down Bouchard on some FA's) that's a large investment for the ownership to put into the year. I'm just not so sure they'd be willing to make that type of financial commitment to a team that, in all likelihood, won't exactly be a legitimate contending team. I just don't see it as a realistic option.

Conversely, if you don't plan on using that cap space, there's really no point in sending him down. On a team that's in need of offense and excitement, I don't see why you wouldn't play Bouchard if he's healthy enough to play.

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06-09-2010, 09:52 PM
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The thing is, though, (assuming the Wild would use that cap space vacated by sending down Bouchard on some FA's) that's a large investment for the ownership to put into the year. I'm just not so sure they'd be willing to make that type of financial commitment to a team that, in all likelihood, won't exactly be a legitimate contending team. I just don't see it as a realistic option.

Conversely, if you don't plan on using that cap space, there's really no point in sending him down. On a team that's in need of offense and excitement, I don't see why you wouldn't play Bouchard if he's healthy enough to play.
I guess I've moved on from him already. I have a feeling he's only going to come back as a shadow of his former self. If he's back to normal then great, but I don't see it being close to that. Just my feeling though.

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06-09-2010, 09:59 PM
  #75
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I guess I've moved on from him already. I have a feeling he's only going to come back as a shadow of his former self. If he's back to normal then great, but I don't see it being close to that. Just my feeling though.
I don't disagree. The Wild would probably better off if he never came back as bad as that is to say. But it's just a really tricky situation at this point. Stating the obvious, I know.

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