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06-10-2010, 03:36 PM
  #1
DeeMeck
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Thoughts on Phoenix issues?

This is a total conflict of interest.

So, NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly has set a cash limit on the Coyotes. Maloney has said it is not very much.

I don't understand why they can't just let the team move.

It's a shame they pretty much have no chance to bring back Michalek or Lombardi. They are going to be dumpster diving on July 3rd.

I don't blame the fans for not going. They are pretty much screwed whether they go or not. If the NHL is in charge, then they'll pretty much be at the cap floor hoping Bryz can duplicate his performance last year.

If they get sold...they will probably be leaving town within the next few years.

So glad not to be a Yotes fan...this would drive me bonkers.

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06-10-2010, 03:59 PM
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HYORI 1963
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How in the hell did they get into this mess in the first place? Lack of fan support? Poor management?

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06-10-2010, 04:08 PM
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funky
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tired of hearing about it, tired of Bettman being a donkey, just let Balsilie buy the team, move them to wherever is viable, take his millions to help stability of the league for years, his communication experties to help the fans and his vigor to energize all the ole Boyz club.


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06-10-2010, 04:14 PM
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Boba Fettuccine
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
How in the hell did they get into this mess in the first place? Lack of fan support? Poor management?
Gretzky really ****ed that team up.

I had a feeling they (like the Diamondbacks now) were playing below their talent level.
Tippet did a hell of a job there but with all due respect(and I would have loved him to coach here) He looks better because Gretz did such a bad job behind the bench.

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06-10-2010, 04:17 PM
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Buddy The Elf
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It really makes no sense and it really speaks to the volume of ego Bettman has. I'm no expert on business or this situation but as far as I know, there has been more than one party offering to buy the team. Let them buy and they move it if that is what they want. Well, guess whose fault it is that all the prospective owners want to move it? Time to take responsibility for your mistakes.

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06-10-2010, 04:20 PM
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KINGS17
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It gets mighty cold in Winnipeg.

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06-10-2010, 05:39 PM
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Chruceg
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Gretzky really ****ed that team up.

I had a feeling they (like the Diamondbacks now) were playing below their talent level.
Tippet did a hell of a job there but with all due respect(and I would have loved him to coach here) He looks better because Gretz did such a bad job behind the bench.
First of all I completely agree that Tippet did a great job in Phoenix this year; however, I completely disagree that the reason Phoenix was terrible was because of Gretzky. The teams those two were asked to run were completely different. Gretzky had to contend with coaching rookies and chronic under performers while Tippet had steady veterans. Compare the top nine forwards and you tell me which team is better. (Comparing only players that spent the majority of their season with the Coyotes. In other words late arrivals via trade don't count.)

Gretzky: Doan, Jokinen, Reinprecht, Mueller, Lindstrom, Lisin, Hanzal, Boedker, and Turris

Tippet: Lombardi, Doan, Upshall, Vrbata, Lang, Hanzal, Fiddler, Mueller, and Pyatt

And then there is the difference in defense which I'll sum up in one comment. Gretzky's Coyotes had to put up with 68 games of Kurt Sauer.

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06-10-2010, 05:47 PM
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DeeMeck
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
First of all I completely agree that Tippet did a great job in Phoenix this year; however, I completely disagree that the reason Phoenix was terrible was because of Gretzky. The teams those two were asked to run were completely different. Gretzky had to contend with coaching rookies and chronic under performers while Tippet had steady veterans. Compare the top nine forwards and you tell me which team is better. (Comparing only players that spent the majority of their season with the Coyotes. In other words late arrivals via trade don't count.)

Gretzky: Doan, Jokinen, Reinprecht, Mueller, Lindstrom, Lisin, Hanzal, Boedker, and Turris

Tippet: Lombardi, Doan, Upshall, Vrbata, Lang, Hanzal, Fiddler, Mueller, and Pyatt

And then there is the difference in defense which I'll sum up in one comment. Gretzky's Coyotes had to put up with 68 games of Kurt Sauer.
Auld, Aebischer, and Tellqvist didn't help things

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06-10-2010, 05:49 PM
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DeeMeck
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You thought our 1st rounders were bad......yikes!!

1996: Dan Focht (11th overall) & Daniel Brière (24th overall)*
1997: None
1998: Patrick DesRochers (14th overall)
1999: Scott Kelman (15th overall) & Kirill Safronov (19th overall)
2000: Krystofer Kolanos (19th overall)
2001: Fredrik Sjostrom (11th overall)
2002: Jakub Koreis (19th overall) & Ben Eager (23rd overall)
2003: None
2004: Blake Wheeler (5th overall)
2005: Martin Hanzal (17th overall)
2006: Peter Mueller (8th overall) & Chris Summers (29th overall)
2007: Kyle Turris (3rd overall) & Nick Ross (30th overall)
2008: Mikkel Bodker (8th overall) & Viktor Tikhonov (28th Overall)
2009: Oliver Ekman-Larsson (6th overall)

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06-10-2010, 06:00 PM
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Tadite
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There by the grace of god go us. Anyone remember the mid-90's.....

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06-10-2010, 06:16 PM
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Ollie Weeks
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It gets mighty cold in Winnipeg.
Official Motto: "Once the snow melts the mosquitoes will drive you nuts."

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06-10-2010, 06:40 PM
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Boba Fettuccine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post

Tippet: Lombardi, Doan, Upshall, Vrbata, Lang, Hanzal, Fiddler, Mueller, and Pyatt

And then there is the difference in defense which I'll sum up in one comment. Gretzky's Coyotes had to put up with 68 games of Kurt Sauer.
Remember Gretzky had a lot of these guys after the trade deadline last year and didn't fare any better.

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06-10-2010, 08:09 PM
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Chruceg
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Remember Gretzky had a lot of these guys after the trade deadline last year and didn't fare any better.
I do. I looked at the hockeydb pages for the two seasons. I intentionally omitted guys like Wolski and Stempniak who were point per game players in 09-10. And I only briefly touched on defense which when you compare is also night and day. Hale, Sauer, and Klee vs. Aucoin, Lepisto, and Vandermeer.

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06-10-2010, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
First of all I completely agree that Tippet did a great job in Phoenix this year; however, I completely disagree that the reason Phoenix was terrible was because of Gretzky.
... Of COURSE Phoenix wasn't terrible because of Gretzky. LBFF's take is pretty ignorant, but that's to be expected from anyone who doesn't bother to actually go back and check some facts.

Gretzky took on a team that finished next-to-last in 02-03 and last in 03-04. They were bad well before he started coaching them.

In 05-06 and 06-07, Gretzky had to win games with a washed-up Curtis Joseph in goal. Joseph had a save percentage of .902 in 05-06 and .893 in 06-07. Nobody wins with goaltending that poor, it's that simple.

In 05-06, Phoenix had some offensive talent, and Gretzky's record of 38-39-5 wasn't too bad despite the terrible play in goal.

In 06-07, most of that offensive talent was gone, and the Coyotes' second leading goal scorer was Yanic Perreault, who played a little more than half the season. Tied for fourth on that team in scoring was a guy named Mike Zigomanis, who scored 14 goals for Gretzky that season but never scored more than 2 goals in any other season. So, what Gretzky essentially had was bad offense and terrible goaltending. Given that, how could the Coyotes play "below their talent level"? Wouldn't that assume that a level of talent would have to be there in the first place?

In 07-08, Gretz finally got a quality goalie in Bryzgalov, and his record was 38-37-7. He might have done better, if he had an offense that was better than 22nd in the league. And I challenge anyone to look at the scorers on that team and tell me who underachieved. Radim Vrbata had a career high in goals, so did Peter Mueller. How did Gretzky hold these guys down, again?

In 08-09, Bryzgalov's save percentage plummeted from .921 the season before to .906. The scoring was still poor. Shane Doan had a career high in goals, but aside from he and Olli Jokinen, what was there? Steven Reinprecht was still the same player he always was, which wasn't second line center, but he had to play there by default. Vrbata was in Tampa Bay. Again, what was there to work with?

So, in 09-10, Phoenix went back to the postseason. Bryzgalov went back to form, and LaBarbera had the highest save percentage of his career. So the goaltending was outstanding. The Coyotes took more advantage of the shootout than any other team, partially because of the goaltending.

But who had a better year among the skaters? Anyone? Doan didn't. They got Vrbata back, but did he play better for Tippett than he did for Gretzky two seasons prior? Nope. Jovanovski was still a minus player. Upshall scored 18 for Tippett, but he also scored 8 in 19 games for Gretzky, so was he really underachieving until Tippett came along? Nope. Yandle merely continued his development ... which began under Gretzky's watch, right? Of course.

If you're gonna say Tippett is a better head coach than Gretzky, I won't disagree with you. But how did Gretzky **** up that was there? How was he terrible, given what he had to work with? Who underachieved?

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Old
06-10-2010, 08:24 PM
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HYORI 1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
You thought our 1st rounders were bad......yikes!!

1996: Dan Focht (11th overall) & Daniel Brière (24th overall)*
1997: None
1998: Patrick DesRochers (14th overall)
1999: Scott Kelman (15th overall) & Kirill Safronov (19th overall)
2000: Krystofer Kolanos (19th overall)
2001: Fredrik Sjostrom (11th overall)
2002: Jakub Koreis (19th overall) & Ben Eager (23rd overall)
2003: None
2004: Blake Wheeler (5th overall)
2005: Martin Hanzal (17th overall)
2006: Peter Mueller (8th overall) & Chris Summers (29th overall)
2007: Kyle Turris (3rd overall) & Nick Ross (30th overall)
2008: Mikkel Bodker (8th overall) & Viktor Tikhonov (28th Overall)
2009: Oliver Ekman-Larsson (6th overall)
Wow, those picks are comparable to our picks from the 70s and 80s. Was Gretzky a big part of making the draft picks?

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06-10-2010, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
You thought our 1st rounders were bad......yikes!!

1996: Dan Focht (11th overall) & Daniel Brière (24th overall)*
1997: None
1998: Patrick DesRochers (14th overall)
1999: Scott Kelman (15th overall) & Kirill Safronov (19th overall)
2000: Krystofer Kolanos (19th overall)
2001: Fredrik Sjostrom (11th overall)
2002: Jakub Koreis (19th overall) & Ben Eager (23rd overall)
2003: None
2004: Blake Wheeler (5th overall)
2005: Martin Hanzal (17th overall)
2006: Peter Mueller (8th overall) & Chris Summers (29th overall)
2007: Kyle Turris (3rd overall) & Nick Ross (30th overall)
2008: Mikkel Bodker (8th overall) & Viktor Tikhonov (28th Overall)
2009: Oliver Ekman-Larsson (6th overall)



yikes............. this is a way to run a team into the ground

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06-11-2010, 12:05 PM
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yikes............. this is a way to run a team into the ground
Was there a single game played in the NHL by any of these guys for the Coyotes?
Briere got traded before he played a game there right? and I think Focht maybe played a few... But anyone with time on their hands want to figure out how many games total they got from the guys taken 1996-2004?

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06-11-2010, 12:20 PM
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DeeMeck
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Sjostrom was there a bit.

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06-11-2010, 12:49 PM
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Johnny Utah
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Maloney has done a tremondous job though. The Upshall and Lombardi trades really helped the Yotes. He also had some shrewd free agent signings like Aucoin, Pyatt.

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06-11-2010, 01:20 PM
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Boba Fettuccine
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. He also had some shrewd free agent signings like Aucoin, Pyatt.
Gretzky had these guys after the deadline last year and the team still played under .500 hockey.
Keep apologizing for Gretzky and ignoring what He did to that team.
And for those of you bringing up personnel, remember that Gretzky wasn't just the coach, He was an owner and was involved in personnel decisions.

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06-11-2010, 01:23 PM
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tigermask48
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Gretzky had these guys after the deadline last year and the team still played under .500 hockey.
Keep apologizing for Gretzky and ignoring what He did to that team.
This is true. Look at the difference between what guys like Frolov, Kopitar, Brown, etc. did under Crawford and then under Murray. A coach has a huge effect on a team be it negative or positive...

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06-11-2010, 02:21 PM
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JDM
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And for those of you bringing up personnel, remember that Gretzky wasn't just the coach, He was an owner and was involved in personnel decisions.
This is an important point that has been completely ignored.

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Old
06-11-2010, 03:20 PM
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KINGS17
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This is an important point that has been completely ignored.
...Well, by some.

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06-11-2010, 03:22 PM
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...Well, by some.
Once a player, always a player, to a player lover.

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06-11-2010, 03:58 PM
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...Well, by some.
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Once a player, always a player, to a player lover.
... Yeah, I had no idea you two were in the Phoenix organization with LBFF during that time. Guess the team hired Don Maloney as GM for ****s and giggles, huh? If there's a way to blame Gretzky, you can't help yourself, can you? Guess that's the way it works for player haters.

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