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Tallon: Vokoun to be starter for Panthers next year

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Old
06-10-2010, 08:10 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I know no one wants to hear (or remember apparently) this but Vokoun was not good to start last season. I dont care what his final stats were or what team was in front of him, but all you needed to do was watch him the first 2 months of the season (approx). He was letting in easy goals and did not play like the All-star he should be. Thats been his knock since forever now that he starts slow and ends slow.

Towards the end of the yr, Clemmensen got more starts because of that as well. And I dont really think the Olympics had that much to do with it because if there were no Olympics, he'd still be playing plenty of games during that stretch so he would've worned down like he did regardless. Which is kinda odd to me because he claimed he worked over last summer to combat that fatigue issue he's had in the past.

My point is that I would not expect anything different from Vokoun next season. He and the team will start in a hole as usual, then catch fire as usual, then sputter into the trade deadline and then they'll trade Vokoun. I think Tallon is prepared for that and is not taking a short-sighted view of this team. Yes it has some talent but not enough to compete in the playoffs like the teams we saw this yr. Its going to take at least 1 more yr before enough guys are competing like he wants and it would be better for the org to keep Vokoun for various reasons (no trade market, bad publicity, STH relations, etc).
I dont think his slow starts and the teams slow starts coincide with one another, its just a bad coincidence (not saying you were implying that). What Tallon has been saying, about changing the attitude of this team, is arguably right up there with adding the right mix of players. We are really going to have to figure out this issue we have with starting the seasons the way we do.

Regarding Vokoun, I agree with your reasoning to why it would be better to keep him here. I still think Tallon will listen to offers, but its more likely Vokoun will be moved at the deadline next season, but only if we are completely out of it. If that happens, then I can see Markstrom being brought up, and groom him for the season after next, where Tallon should have a good opportunity to really put his stamp on this team.

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06-10-2010, 10:22 AM
  #102
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The problem with our team has nothing to do with Vokoun. In fact, he hides how bad we truly are. The problem with our team is that our best forwards and defensemen are not that good. Your team is only as good as your best players, imo, and ours are close to being the worst in the league.

Horton, Weiss, Booth, and Frolik are the best four forwards on this team. Compare them to most teams best forwards and its no surprise that we've sucked for so long. Horton and Weiss were supposed to be our Kane and Toews. Instead, they're more like Veersteeg and Bolland. Good players but nothing special. They would be great pieces to supplement true first line players.

Your forward top line plays 1/3 of the game and your top d-pairing plays around 25 minutes. You should be putting most of your money in these two positions because they have such a great effect on the play of the game. Offensive pressure means less chances against and less penalties for. A sustained offensive attack and puck possession is rarely seen by this team. Most of our games consistent of us running around our zone blocking shots and dumping the puck in so we can change and then repeating over and over again.

Your goaltender should be the last line of defense, not the first, which is what our team seems to have done. We expect Vokoun to stop almost everything and hope we can get a couple of goals. How many games did we win when Vokoun wasn't on?

Look at our D with the top four being Ballard, Kulikov, McCabe, Allen. Can you really expect to be competitive with that?

Basically, we will not be a truly competitive team until we get at least one really good first line player and a number one d-man. There is so much parody that with average to good special teams and a relatively healthy team we should be competitive for the 8th spot but that's not what we want. Vokoun's talent is being wasted and will be next year unless we bring in those two players or one of our forwards blossoms into that true offensive threat.

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06-10-2010, 12:15 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I know no one wants to hear (or remember apparently) this but Vokoun was not good to start last season. I dont care what his final stats were or what team was in front of him, but all you needed to do was watch him the first 2 months of the season (approx). He was letting in easy goals and did not play like the All-star he should be. Thats been his knock since forever now that he starts slow and ends slow.

Towards the end of the yr, Clemmensen got more starts because of that as well. And I dont really think the Olympics had that much to do with it because if there were no Olympics, he'd still be playing plenty of games during that stretch so he would've worned down like he did regardless. Which is kinda odd to me because he claimed he worked over last summer to combat that fatigue issue he's had in the past.

My point is that I would not expect anything different from Vokoun next season. He and the team will start in a hole as usual, then catch fire as usual, then sputter into the trade deadline and then they'll trade Vokoun. I think Tallon is prepared for that and is not taking a short-sighted view of this team. Yes it has some talent but not enough to compete in the playoffs like the teams we saw this yr. Its going to take at least 1 more yr before enough guys are competing like he wants and it would be better for the org to keep Vokoun for various reasons (no trade market, bad publicity, STH relations, etc).
I don't see how it's better to keep Vokoun if as you say this team doesn't have the talent to compete in the playoffs. Fan perception can't get much more negative than it already is. If we trade him now, we get something and we increase our odds of getting that 1st line player or top pairing d-man in the draft, which is the only way we'll get those players because we don't spend that much money on a FA and very few of our players have any trade value.

Regardless, what we're talking about now (rebuilding) should have happened under Martin. Martin incorrectly chose to keep this roster and try for the playoffs instead of rebuilding. All we got was finishing in 9th-11th place while he was here. Those years of finishing just out of the playoffs set the rebuild back several years.

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06-10-2010, 12:18 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by panthersfan751 View Post
Regardless, what we're talking about now (rebuilding) should have happened under Martin. Martin incorrectly chose to keep this roster and try for the playoffs instead of rebuilding. All we got was finishing in 9th-11th place while he was here. Those years of finishing just out of the playoffs set the rebuild back several years.
EXACTLY! Well said. We should have just tanked it up then and we'd be much better off now.

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06-10-2010, 12:21 PM
  #105
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Vokoun wasn't as bad as usual at the start of this season, and as for the end, didn't he have an injury? Particularly the last two games where Tyler Plante warmed the bench for Clemm?

It's true Tomas has historically started slowly, but this year he didn't have a bad start - the rest of the team did. He started slumping a little in December I think because he had to play so much because Clemmensen proved a completely unreliable backup. But then of course he had that streak in January where he didn't allow more than 2 goals a game for about a month...but his hot streak coincided with the team's offensive cold streak so he still only eked out a .500 record or thereabouts.

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06-10-2010, 01:45 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Horton, Weiss, Booth, and Frolik are the best four forwards on this team. Compare them to most teams best forwards and its no surprise that we've sucked for so long. Horton and Weiss were supposed to be our Kane and Toews. Instead, they're more like Veersteeg and Bolland. Good players but nothing special. They would be great pieces to supplement true first line players.
Pretty spot on with your assessment.

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06-10-2010, 02:04 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Vokoun wasn't as bad as usual at the start of this season, and as for the end, didn't he have an injury? Particularly the last two games where Tyler Plante warmed the bench for Clemm?

It's true Tomas has historically started slowly, but this year he didn't have a bad start - the rest of the team did. He started slumping a little in December I think because he had to play so much because Clemmensen proved a completely unreliable backup. But then of course he had that streak in January where he didn't allow more than 2 goals a game for about a month...but his hot streak coincided with the team's offensive cold streak so he still only eked out a .500 record or thereabouts.
I actually agree. I think his first two games were bad and then after that he was pretty darn good and even hit a point where he was pretty much the best player night in and night out. He took accountability after the first two games and stepped up quickly this year.

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06-10-2010, 02:12 PM
  #108
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I think it was just the whole starting the season overseas, everyone not on the same page for a few weeks, and then the Booth injury when things started looking up that just made for a dreadful October. It unfortunately was a little too difficult to build up on and overcome with more key injuries later in the season. I think our problem though like we had with Luongo and still with Vokoun is that we're depending too much on the goaltenders to win us games and the offense & defense just isn't enough to save them. Management I guess was trying to solve that problem with Weiss & Horton drafted high and didn't become superstars like expectations originally were. Things can only really go up from here...

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06-10-2010, 04:10 PM
  #109
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.925 save % last year. Forgive the guy for being human.
He is a great numbers goalie. I trust what I saw, I know most of you don't agree.

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06-10-2010, 04:21 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
It takes a team to win.
.925 save %, 2.55 GAA; Vokoun deserved more wins, but he played for a terrible team, as has been the case throughout his career in Florida.

The only team Vokoun can't win with is the Panthers. Funny how that works. Kinda shows that the problem is the Panthers, not Vokoun.

By this logic though, I assume you think Luongo isn't that good either, right? He didn't "win" here. Yet, he's making the playoffs in Vancouver. Once again, the problem = the team around the goaltender, not the goaltender.

Your argument says that Chris Osgood is one of the best of all-time, and Michael Leighton was great this year. I don't buy it, sorry.

Put a competitive team around Vokoun, and he'll win.
Michael Leighton had good numbers this year, how come Vokoun gets a pass but Leighton doesn't? Leighton also doesn't make 5.7M

Vokoun lets in too many soft goals that a 5M+ goalie should easily stop. My friend who is a Flyers fan yelled out "******* Vokoun goals!!" when Chicago scored the winner last night in OT.

Having 5.7M to spend elsewhere and getting assets for one of our players for once is something this franchise needs.

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06-10-2010, 04:26 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
We were a year removed from missing the playoffs on a second tie-breaker. Vokoun did his job, and there's no telling what a team can do once it makes the playoffs, especially in the East.

We could've kept Andy for a better price, but when the team played in front of him like they did in front of Vokoun, he would've crumbled and we'd be stuck with a tandem of Andy and MAYBE Clemm, both being bad fits for our style. Don't believe me? Look at Andy's goal support last season compared to Vokoun's. With Andy in goal, we had a top 10 offense. In front of Vokoun we were bottom 10.

Hanging on to Vokoun was the right call, though we likely could've gotten a higher pick with Andy so maybe you've got a point.
With the difference in contract price we could have gotten more goal support for Anderson. The Anderson/Clemmensen idea was a stop gap until Markstrom was ready while maximizing assets.

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06-10-2010, 04:29 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
Bottom line is this: Chicago won the Cup with Huet's cap hit and having him riding the pine. If they can afford to throw away the cap space, we can build a team that's successful with a better goalie.

People ignore that. Chicago doesn't prove how unimportant big goalies are. It proves how important it is to build a good team.

So if it's as easy as just getting rid of Vokoun because Chicago won with a rookie, build that same team and replace a sitting Huet with an All-Star Vokoun.
Chicago also had its best players still on cheap deals and spent to the cap. Next year they are going to have to gut some of their secondary scoring mainly because of Huet's awful contract that he did not live up to.

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06-10-2010, 04:34 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
I love all the people that jump on Vokoun for his mistakes but let everybody else slide. Vokoun was the most consistant player the last two years. He works hard every night and is one of the few players that actually seem to care. How many times did he have to make spectacular save because nobody could clear the puck or somebody made a bad turnover and he is facing a 2 on 1. I wouldn't mind seeing him traded if it helped the team or if he could go to a contender but he definately isnt the the problem with the Panthers.
Consistent players don't go into to terrible slumps like Vokoun does atleast once a year. I have no doubt that he works hard or cares, he seems like a great person, but that doesn't always mean wins. He can make the spectacular save, but I'd rather have a goalie that makes the saves he is supposed to first. If his contract wasn't so big we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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06-10-2010, 05:03 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
I love all the people that jump on Vokoun for his mistakes but let everybody else slide. Vokoun was the most consistant player the last two years. He works hard every night and is one of the few players that actually seem to care. How many times did he have to make spectacular save because nobody could clear the puck or somebody made a bad turnover and he is facing a 2 on 1. I wouldn't mind seeing him traded if it helped the team or if he could go to a contender but he definately isnt the the problem with the Panthers.
Three years, actually.

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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
With the difference in contract price we could have gotten more goal support for Anderson. The Anderson/Clemmensen idea was a stop gap until Markstrom was ready while maximizing assets.
Really? Like who? Tanguay? And how much goal support could we get with <$4 million? Enough to turn our offense into a top 10 one instead of bottom 10? Yeah, ok.

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Chicago also had its best players still on cheap deals and spent to the cap. Next year they are going to have to gut some of their secondary scoring mainly because of Huet's awful contract that he did not live up to.
Exactly! So stop bringing up Chicago's goalies as though their situation is so damn easy to emulate!

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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Consistent players don't go into to terrible slumps like Vokoun does atleast once a year. I have no doubt that he works hard or cares, he seems like a great person, but that doesn't always mean wins. He can make the spectacular save, but I'd rather have a goalie that makes the saves he is supposed to first. If his contract wasn't so big we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Yes they do. Please learn what you're talking about. Even the best have bad games and go into slumps, and Vokoun's been arguably the NHL's best goalie since the lockout. Lundqvist was scored on from center ice, for god's sake!

Vokoun's worth his salary, he's elite. How many of the goals scored in the Finals this year were saves the goalie was supposed to make? Soft goals happen, and it's easy to say one goalie lets in soft goals when he's the only one you watch. Selective memory and confirmation bias have a horrible tendency of fooling people into thinking that they're not talking out of their *****.

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06-10-2010, 10:11 PM
  #115
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Vokoun's contract isn't killing us as much as Olesz, McCabe, Allen, Ballard, Koistinen, and Clemmensen making a combined 18 million dollars (a little more than 18, actually) is hurting us. For some reason, Vokoun is always the scapegoat. He's the 7th highest paid goalie in the league; based on his consistency in numbers over the years, plenty of people would agree that he's a top 7 netminder. I don't see how he hasn't played up to his contract. The only reason to even want his departure is because we have a potentially younger version of him playing in the AHL this upcoming year.

Seriously, if Vokoun wasn't 33 years old, would anyone even want him gone?

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06-10-2010, 11:07 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Vokoun's contract isn't killing us as much as Olesz, McCabe, Allen, Ballard, Koistinen, and Clemmensen making a combined 18 million dollars (a little more than 18, actually) is hurting us. For some reason, Vokoun is always the scapegoat. He's the 7th highest paid goalie in the league; based on his consistency in numbers over the years, plenty of people would agree that he's a top 7 netminder. I don't see how he hasn't played up to his contract. The only reason to even want his departure is because we have a potentially younger version of him playing in the AHL this upcoming year.

Seriously, if Vokoun wasn't 33 years old, would anyone even want him gone?
I agree with you here. Vokoun was really most of the silver lining on the dark cloud. The guy was one of the top goalies, and lets be real he faced a lot of shots. I'll also give Ballard a pass, his performance was horrible last season, that wasn't really him, hopefully he'll play with a chip on his shoulder and show us that smooth skating defensemen we've all loved to see take it end to end. I say GIVE Koistinen away. I hope tallon can make some moves for us on draft day.

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06-11-2010, 02:52 AM
  #117
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When can teams start to trade with each other again? July 1st?

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06-11-2010, 03:09 AM
  #118
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When can teams start to trade with each other again? July 1st?
Definitely before that, as teams can trade around the draft (end of June). I think it's right after the playoffs end, so it should be possible right now, or very soon.

As for Vokoun, anyone who doesn't realize that he's an elite goaltender needs to stop having an opinion for a minute and go check the facts. He's statistically one of the most (if not THE most?) individually successful goalies since the lockout. He may not be 100% consistent, but no goalie is. Even Brodeur, Miller and Luongo have periods when they play bad. In fact, Vokoun has a better save% than all those goalies since the lockout, and has played very well in important games.

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06-11-2010, 03:36 AM
  #119
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Definitely before that, as teams can trade around the draft (end of June). I think it's right after the playoffs end, so it should be possible right now, or very soon.

As for Vokoun, anyone who doesn't realize that he's an elite goaltender needs to stop having an opinion for a minute and go check the facts. He's statistically one of the most (if not THE most?) individually successful goalies since the lockout. He may not be 100% consistent, but no goalie is. Even Brodeur, Miller and Luongo have periods when they play bad. In fact, Vokoun has a better save% than all those goalies since the lockout, and has played very well in important games.
Lol ofcourse, brain freeze.
So we could basically see a trade go down tonight?

Hope Tallon gets it going now!!

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06-11-2010, 03:48 AM
  #120
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I would think June 24th is the date, since it would be the day before the draft.

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06-11-2010, 08:10 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Michael Leighton had good numbers this year, how come Vokoun gets a pass but Leighton doesn't? Leighton also doesn't make 5.7M
Leighton didn't have great numbers. 2.83, .905 is not good -- I don't know what standard you are holding goalies too, but it's obviously skewed man.

I don't know how you don't see it, but hockey is a TEAM game. A goalies numbers are going to be affected by the TEAM around him. Vokoun's numbers were brought down by the ****** (see, 3rd worst) TEAM we had last year and Leighton played behind a defense that is one of the elite in the NHL and carried his ass to the Stanley Cup and therefore, his numbers should have been better.

If you dare argue this, Leighton (your example) is the perfect sample because he played for Carolina and Philly last year and you can see the drastic improvement in his numbers once he played for Philly.

Evidence is here: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=1311

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06-11-2010, 09:23 AM
  #122
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In all honesty, if Philly traded us Carter for Vokoun straight-up, they probably would have won the cup. Giroux and Briere outplayed Carter by miles.

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06-11-2010, 10:32 AM
  #123
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In all honesty, if Philly traded us Carter for Vokoun straight-up, they probably would have won the cup. Giroux and Briere outplayed Carter by miles.
I agree. Even disregarding the fact that Carter missed a lot of the playoffs, their goaltending was a product of the team in front of it.

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06-11-2010, 01:05 PM
  #124
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In all honesty, if Philly traded us Carter for Vokoun straight-up, they probably would have won the cup. Giroux and Briere outplayed Carter by miles.
I agree. They would be become the most complete team in the east.

The Stanley Cup team rated:
Forwards - 9
Defense - 9
Goaltending - 6

With Vokoun and without Carter
Forwards - 8.5 (maybe a 9 with a year more of JVR CG and VL's development)
Defense - 9
Goalie - 9

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06-11-2010, 02:16 PM
  #125
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I agree. They would be become the most complete team in the east.

The Stanley Cup team rated:
Forwards - 9
Defense - 9
Goaltending - 6

With Vokoun and without Carter
Forwards - 8.5 (maybe a 9 with a year more of JVR CG and VL's development)
Defense - 9
Goalie - 9
And a bunch of Philly fans are arguing that they wouldn't trade Carter now for Vokoun unless Kulikov or the 3rd overall are added to the mix... sucks because I'd love that trade for Vokoun's sake.

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