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Rangers sign Derek Stepan (Post #396)

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Old
06-11-2010, 08:08 PM
  #326
Radek27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
For starters I think you're covering far too great of a period of time to make that statement.

Second, this team was never really "rebuilding." High drafts picks were the result of this team sucking, not rebuilding.

Third, you simply cannot despute the fact that in the last five drafts, 40 percent of the first round picks have become 33 percent of starting defense. The Cherepanov situation is what it is, that has nothing to do with drafting. That's just flat out a tragedy.

Finally, mistakes included, this team has produced more NHL players for itself from 2004 up through today than it has at any time since the late 80s/early 90s.

Considering that this is our first top ten pick in six years, I just don't think we can complain like we could in 2003 or 2004.

This team has had a lot of flaws the last several years, but I don't think we can say it was the drafting. That's been pretty well recognized by publications and other sources.
Oh I thought when you trade all your best players for draft picks and prospects that is called "rebuilding", I guess you have a different name for it. How can you say we never rebuilt? You can say we didn't do it right but to ignore it happened is kinda silly. The thing that still irks me to this very day about that whole thing that happened was the best players we got, the one I was most excited about RJ Umberger went on to be the best player of the bunch we had. And our management thought he was the only one out of all the scrubs we got to NOT offer a contract to. I mean you see why it's so damn depressing?

We did rebuild but all our most important draft picks turned out to be busts which is why we have paid out the nose for players to fill those spots. You need your picks to turn into players man, if not you have to get them from somewhere.

Edge you THINK things have changed, your fooled my friend. Look at our cap, look at our prospect list, one is average and one is to the max I will let you guess which one is which. Same old New York Rangers from where i'm sitting to be honest. We are paying a 3rd pairing defender star player salary and our 3rd line center makes as much as Vinny Lecavalier. Why would any Ranger fan have any trust into talent analysis from this group running this franchise? You see those salaries don't you? It happened in one of two ways, either you have to admit our guys are just terrible at looking and pricing talent or admit we were forced to sign those players due to poor drafting. It's one or the other to me. Neither answer bodes well for our future.

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06-11-2010, 08:28 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Oh I thought when you trade all your best players for draft picks and prospects that is called "rebuilding", I guess you have a different name for it. How can you say we never rebuilt? You can say we didn't do it right but to ignore it happened is kinda silly. The thing that still irks me to this very day about that whole thing that happened was the best players we got, the one I was most excited about RJ Umberger went on to be the best player of the bunch we had. And our management thought he was the only one out of all the scrubs we got to NOT offer a contract to. I mean you see why it's so damn depressing?

We did rebuild but all our most important draft picks turned out to be busts which is why we have paid out the nose for players to fill those spots. You need your picks to turn into players man, if not you have to get them from somewhere.

Edge you THINK things have changed, your fooled my friend. Look at our cap, look at our prospect list, one is average and one is to the max I will let you guess which one is which. Same old New York Rangers from where i'm sitting to be honest. We are paying a 3rd pairing defender star player salary and our 3rd line center makes as much as Vinny Lecavalier. Why would any Ranger fan have any trust into talent analysis from this group running this franchise? You see those salaries don't you? It happened in one of two ways, either you have to admit our guys are just terrible at looking and pricing talent or admit we were forced to sign those players due to poor drafting. It's one or the other to me. Neither answer bodes well for our future.
Sorry, but I disagree on the drafting. I think you're correct about the free agent signings and the state of the team, but wrong on the drafting and development of young players.

Currently we have Staal, Del Zotto and Girardi on defense, all players we either drafted or signed coming out of juniors.

At forward we have Dubinsky, Callahan and Anisimov on the NHL roster.

You have guys like Grachev, Kreider, Werek, Sanguinetti, McD and Stepan in the system. That's not a bad list from the last several years and better than a lot of teams out there.

You seem to think that because I'm okay with the drafting, that I'm okay with the state of the Rangers. To me the two are not mutually exclusive. I don't approve of the free agent signings and even recently I've commented that I thought this team should have just done a straight rebuild coming out of the lockout.

You're right we don't have a guy like Toews or Kane, but we're not talking Lundmark and Brendl here either.


Last edited by Edge: 06-11-2010 at 08:52 PM. Reason: Forgot McD
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06-11-2010, 08:37 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
woah, so what is a hulking beast at 6'2"? how much beefier does one really need to be at that height? how much beefier can he possibly get before it affects that awesome speed of his? I mean, like Erik Cole is 6'2" 205ish. He's pretty beastly isn't he? Iginla is 6'1" 209. Rick Nash is 6'4" 218. It's pretty rare you get a Byfgulien 6'4" 250+ type of guy but I guess he's rather beastly.
Personally, I wouldn't consider 6'2, 210 to be hulking, no. Two inches and ten pounds is a big difference in hockey terms and I do not believe a guy like Iginla is only 210 pounds. Not a chance.

Hockey and baseball both have certain stigmas about heavier weights, that somehow seeing a guy that weighs 250 pounds would stun people. So you end up with more "acceptable" weights being listed. That's why you see so many nice round numbers, like 210 or 220 pounds.

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06-11-2010, 08:44 PM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Oh I thought when you trade all your best players for draft picks and prospects that is called "rebuilding", I guess you have a different name for it. How can you say we never rebuilt? You can say we didn't do it right but to ignore it happened is kinda silly. The thing that still irks me to this very day about that whole thing that happened was the best players we got, the one I was most excited about RJ Umberger went on to be the best player of the bunch we had. And our management thought he was the only one out of all the scrubs we got to NOT offer a contract to. I mean you see why it's so damn depressing?

We did rebuild but all our most important draft picks turned out to be busts which is why we have paid out the nose for players to fill those spots. You need your picks to turn into players man, if not you have to get them from somewhere.

Edge you THINK things have changed, your fooled my friend. Look at our cap, look at our prospect list, one is average and one is to the max I will let you guess which one is which. Same old New York Rangers from where i'm sitting to be honest. We are paying a 3rd pairing defender star player salary and our 3rd line center makes as much as Vinny Lecavalier. Why would any Ranger fan have any trust into talent analysis from this group running this franchise? You see those salaries don't you? It happened in one of two ways, either you have to admit our guys are just terrible at looking and pricing talent or admit we were forced to sign those players due to poor drafting. It's one or the other to me. Neither answer bodes well for our future.
It doesn't need to be one or the other. It's both. Drafting has been very solid, but signings have been for the most part very poor. But who are you to call our prospect pool average? We are top 5 in the league WITHOUT Cherepanov. If not for his death we would probably be #1.

In short, you have enough to gripe about as a Rangers fan. Don't look for faults where there aren't any.

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06-11-2010, 09:06 PM
  #330
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[QUOTE=MrAlmost;26238458][QUOTE=kenjets36;26235349]
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For sure dude I was just lettin ya know haha. I figured you didnt mean it that way and to be honest you probably have seen him among the most, but i would argue that his style is a mesh, like a mix between north-south and east-west, he seems to be just a very good player all around.
Yea. It's like that guy who went to Wisconsin and heard that Stepan was signing before all of us. He went there, he knew before all of us. Not only that but that person probably knows most about how Stepan plays as he's probably seen him play the most out of all of us.

And yea he's a little bit of a mesh, but he's more north-south in my opinion. Once he accelerates he's gone.

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06-11-2010, 10:51 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Personally, I wouldn't consider 6'2, 210 to be hulking, no. Two inches and ten pounds is a big difference in hockey terms and I do not believe a guy like Iginla is only 210 pounds. Not a chance.

Hockey and baseball both have certain stigmas about heavier weights, that somehow seeing a guy that weighs 250 pounds would stun people. So you end up with more "acceptable" weights being listed. That's why you see so many nice round numbers, like 210 or 220 pounds.
ESPN has Iginla is listed at 204# this year. TSN at 207#. I guess you can believe what you want to. I'm sure his body fat % is like 5-6 where as a guy like Byfgulien's is probably much higher. I think at 6'2" 210, Kreider will have ample size to play a powerful game. 220 might be optimal for balancing power and speed. 230 is Keith Tkachuk's size but at his age, I'd think he has more body fat than Iginla. I'm curious to know what Tkachuk's weight was in his prime but also Tkachuk's skating isn't nearly as good as people are making Kreider's out to be so the extra weight may benefit him more than it might hinder Kreider.

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06-12-2010, 12:56 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
ESPN has Iginla is listed at 204# this year. TSN at 207#. I guess you can believe what you want to. I'm sure his body fat % is like 5-6 where as a guy like Byfgulien's is probably much higher. I think at 6'2" 210, Kreider will have ample size to play a powerful game. 220 might be optimal for balancing power and speed. 230 is Keith Tkachuk's size but at his age, I'd think he has more body fat than Iginla. I'm curious to know what Tkachuk's weight was in his prime but also Tkachuk's skating isn't nearly as good as people are making Kreider's out to be so the extra weight may benefit him more than it might hinder Kreider.
Heights/weights of hockey players always cracked me up.

Bobby Ryan is listed at 6'2, 210; Iginla at 6'1, 207.

Put them next to Toews who is listed at 6'2, 210. No way they weigh less than him.

Hockey has a weird expectation when it comes to weight.

6'0 is usually in the 190-205 range.

6'1 in the 195-210 range

6'2 in the 200-215 range.

6'3 in the 205-220 range.

6'4 in the 210-225 range

Etc. etc. etc.

When you think about it, what are the odds that all these guys check in at the same general sizes?

I remember back in the day when I started out with the Rangers, Leetch went from being listed as 5'11, 195 to 6'1, 195 one year. Then he suddenly dropped down to 6'0. ESPN suddenly made Mark Messier 6'2 in his early 40's.

As a result, i tend to focus less on the number on the scale and more in line with the body type. So back to my original point, I think Kreider will have a pro frame similar to that Toews. Lean muscle, good size, but balanced with his speed.

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06-12-2010, 01:19 AM
  #333
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Prucha is still listed at 6'0... That's all you need to say about the accuracy of the player profiles...

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06-12-2010, 08:19 AM
  #334
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I always throught it really wasn't that Prucha was short (I don't know how tall he is but he honestly doesn't look tiny out there) but that he can't pack on the weight with his body type.

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06-12-2010, 09:23 AM
  #335
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I kind of laugh at some of the expectations in this thread. The last time the Ranger drafted a player who scored 60+ points for the Rangers was Tony Amonte back in 1991. Yet I'm supposed to believe Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Grachev and Stepan are all going to do it. Most likely, some of these kids are not going to reach their full potential. It's perfectly fine to be excited about these kids, and I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but can we stop penciling Kreider, Stepan, and Grachev into the top six as Plan A for 2010 and 2011.

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06-12-2010, 09:31 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I kind of laugh at some of the expectations in this thread. The last time the Ranger drafted a player who scored 60+ points for the Rangers was Tony Amonte back in 1991. Yet I'm supposed to believe Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Grachev and Stepan are all going to do it. Most likely, some of these kids are not going to reach their full potential. It's perfectly fine to be excited about these kids, and I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but can we stop penciling Kreider, Stepan, and Grachev into the top six as Plan A for 2010 and 2011.
Dubinsky: 69 Games 20 G 24 A

44/69*82 = 52.28 points in 82 games. I don't think it's outlandish to think he'll put up 60+ points in 82 games.

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06-12-2010, 09:32 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Dubinsky: 69 Games 20 G 24 A

44/69*82 = 52.28 points in 82 games. I don't think it's outlandish to think he'll put up 60+ points in 82 games.
I think he will. I just don't think they all will, purely based on the odds.

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06-12-2010, 09:39 AM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Sorry, but I disagree on the drafting. I think you're correct about the free agent signings and the state of the team, but wrong on the drafting and development of young players.

Currently we have Staal, Del Zotto and Girardi on defense, all players we either drafted or signed coming out of juniors.

At forward we have Dubinsky, Callahan and Anisimov on the NHL roster.

You have guys like Grachev, Kreider, Werek, Sanguinetti, McD and Stepan in the system. That's not a bad list from the last several years and better than a lot of teams out there.

You seem to think that because I'm okay with the drafting, that I'm okay with the state of the Rangers. To me the two are not mutually exclusive. I don't approve of the free agent signings and even recently I've commented that I thought this team should have just done a straight rebuild coming out of the lockout.

You're right we don't have a guy like Toews or Kane, but we're not talking Lundmark and Brendl here either.

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06-12-2010, 09:43 AM
  #339
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I think he will. I just don't think they all will, purely based on the odds.
Certainly not in 2010. And, I'd shocked if either Stepan or Grachev are on the 2010 roster, or Kreider is here in 2011. I also do not expect Callahan to ever put up 60 points in a season. He doesn't garner enough assists, and is likely to be playing on the 3rd line, and see decreasing PP time as better offensive player graduate or are acquired.

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06-12-2010, 09:49 AM
  #340
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Certainly not in 2010. And, I'd shocked if either Stepan or Grachev are on the 2010 roster, or Kreider is here in 2011. I also do not expect Callahan to ever put up 60 points in a season. He doesn't garner enough assists, and is likely to be playing on the 3rd line, and see decreasing PP time as better offensive player graduate or are acquired.
I agree on all points, especially with Callahan. The guy is the perfect third line winger, so why make the team weaker by forcing him into a top six role?

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06-12-2010, 10:08 AM
  #341
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I kind of laugh at some of the expectations in this thread. The last time the Ranger drafted a player who scored 60+ points for the Rangers was Tony Amonte back in 1991. Yet I'm supposed to believe Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Grachev and Stepan are all going to do it. Most likely, some of these kids are not going to reach their full potential. It's perfectly fine to be excited about these kids, and I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but can we stop penciling Kreider, Stepan, and Grachev into the top six as Plan A for 2010 and 2011.
The expectations for them to be in the top 6 is not as worrisome as some of the comparisons I've seen in this thread. "Stepan is going to be like our Toews" "He will be like Toews AND Kane!"

Then, when Stepan puts up less than 30 points in his rookie year, like Anisimov did, some Rangers fans will be upset and proclaim he's not that good because of their lofty expectations of him. It's not fair to the kid when the expectations of him were unreasonable in the first place. Sort of like how some people complain "Dubinsky is not turning into the 1st line center we thought he would be" when he was never, ever projected to become a top line player in the first place.

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06-12-2010, 11:58 AM
  #342
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Okay Derek, now talk to your buddy Ryan.

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06-12-2010, 03:53 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by OverTheCap View Post
The expectations for them to be in the top 6 is not as worrisome as some of the comparisons I've seen in this thread. "Stepan is going to be like our Toews" "He will be like Toews AND Kane!"

Then, when Stepan puts up less than 30 points in his rookie year, like Anisimov did, some Rangers fans will be upset and proclaim he's not that good because of their lofty expectations of him. It's not fair to the kid when the expectations of him were unreasonable in the first place. Sort of like how some people complain "Dubinsky is not turning into the 1st line center we thought he would be" when he was never, ever projected to become a top line player in the first place.
People definitely do not have a realistic expectation of when these guys can come up and how they will perform. MDZ was the exception not the rule. Staall had either one or two times where he failed to make the team in camp, then he wound up being a mid season and never looked back. I would be shocked to see Grachev or Stepan make the team out of camp and shocked if either has a much better rookie season than Artie. Either could make the team as a mid but I think we will see both the next season 2011. McD will either be a mid that same year or make the team in fall 2012.

Sangs should make the team this fall. I have a bad feeling Torts doesn't have the patience to coach him up all season though. The staff had Artem, MDZ, Lisin, Gilroy and Boyle. That was a lot of incompetence and inexperience to deal with on one team. I don't know how keen Torts is on doing it again by bringing in grachev, Stepan, Sangs and possibly Sauer or Potter all at once so I doubt the first two will come up this year. They also have Artie, boyle, lisin and MDZ in their second years with the team and MZa coming in this year. That said this team is not very good and vets like Avery, Brashear, Redden, or Voros, could easily get displace dby young talent at some point. Brashear likely is relegated to hartford all year as it is and Voros is generally scratched. Shelly and Prust will probably be resigned.

Far as Werek, kreider, Kundratek, Horak, hagelin, Johnson (likely traded IMO if he acquits himself like he did this year and gets better he will be in demand as a 3rd or 2nd rounder, the Rangers will probably stick with a FA backup and trade him. Not this year though) I'd give those guys 2 whole seasons before they're ready. One could shock but two seasons is my guess. so 2012 is when most guys should be ready. One might bust or slip down to 2013. (Like Werek Bourque or kreider). Another season is needed before I could even guess at how someone like Pashnin is looking.

We also should not be surprised to see Byers, Weise or both make camp this year. We have a depleted 3rd/4th line because some normal 3rd and 4th liners are either bad, have worn out their welcome or are playing on the 2nd line when they don't belong there. Comparisons are to Callahan for both players. we'll see.

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06-12-2010, 04:27 PM
  #344
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People definitely do not have a realistic expectation of when these guys can come up and how they will perform. MDZ was the exception not the rule. Staall had either one or two times where he failed to make the team in camp, then he wound up being a mid season and never looked back. I would be shocked to see Grachev or Stepan make the team out of camp and shocked if either has a much better rookie season than Artie. Either could make the team as a mid but I think we will see both the next season 2011. McD will either be a mid that same year or make the team in fall 2012.
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa....Staal made the team out of camp his 2nd year, he almost made the team out of camp his first year, and frankly he probably should have. I thought he was ready and was shocked he was sent back. Many people thing he regressed a little...or at least temporarily plateaued thanks to that bad decision (though he had a great OHL playoff run where I believe he was named MVP despite being on the losing team)

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06-12-2010, 04:54 PM
  #345
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whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa....Staal made the team out of camp his 2nd year, he almost made the team out of camp his first year, and frankly he probably should have. I thought he was ready and was shocked he was sent back. Many people thing he regressed a little...or at least temporarily plateaued thanks to that bad decision (though he had a great OHL playoff run where I believe he was named MVP despite being on the losing team)
What are you woahing about? I said he didn't make camp once or twice and then u basically came out and repeated he didn't make camp once...we agree so that's good...

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06-12-2010, 06:13 PM
  #346
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What are you woahing about? I said he didn't make camp once or twice and then u basically came out and repeated he didn't make camp once...we agree so that's good...

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06-12-2010, 06:32 PM
  #347
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Adam Graves played junior hockey for the Windsor Spitfires with Brad Stepan. Graves could not stop raving about Derek after last June's prospects camp. You know Graves played a big role in Derek leaving school early. Mike Eaves has not made any public comments since Stepan signed with the Rangers.

Graves is part owner of the Oshawa Generals of the OHL. He has taken a more active role with that franchise. Panthers coach Pete DeBoer is also part of that ownership group. Graves hired his former Ranger teammate Joe Cirella as the Generals AGM and assistant coach. The Oshawa GM was not on board with the hiring which saw his best friend who was the AGM get fired. Cirella played for Oshawa and was an assistant coach there a few years ago. He worked for Peterborough last season.

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06-12-2010, 06:32 PM
  #348
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What are you woahing about? I said he didn't make camp once or twice and then u basically came out and repeated he didn't make camp once...we agree so that's good...
You said Staal was a midseason call up, Inferno was saying he made the team out of camp.

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06-12-2010, 06:36 PM
  #349
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Before Don Maloney left for Phoenix,he said management made a big mistake in not keeping Staal around for the start of the 06-07 season and give Staal the nine game window to see what he can do instead of assigning him to Sudbury. Staal was ready for the NHL in 06-07. Once he was assigned to Sudbury,that was it.

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06-13-2010, 03:04 PM
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You said Staal was a midseason call up, Inferno was saying he made the team out of camp.
That still seems like it was a lot of woahing...for some reason I thought I remembered a call up but I could be wrong. Anyway the crux of what I was saying was he didn't immediately make camp but still turned out fantastic and others could do the same like hopefully Sangs...then again Jessiman came in and had one great camp, didn't make the team and is now gone. maybe last year was Sangs one good camp and now he'll just fade away.

I give up on Sangs this year if he doesn't do anything big.

Also someone is using the Tony Amonte fact...while it's good to look at organizational history i'm not sure the current staff and scouting dept should be compared to them. there are quite a few prospects in the system who project to be 60 point guys, 2nd line or 1B guys. Dubs seems to be a tiny step away from hitting 60 himself. I don't like Cally's chances to hit 60 but 60 would definitely be the ceiling of his potential as a scorer. I'd say 50-55 is his ceiling witha standard deviation bringing it up to 60. So there's a 95% he stays within 55 to me his whole career.

I did not actually do a standard deviation calculation I'm just using that to show what's in my head.

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