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Kurri vs. Makarov

View Poll Results: Makarov or Kurri?
Jari Kurri 28 45.16%
Sergei Makarov 28 45.16%
I can't decide 6 9.68%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-10-2010, 07:11 PM
  #26
Blue Dragon
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Everyone talks about how Kurri had Gretzky, but we also have to remember that Makarov had Larionov during his years of greatness, and The Professor was no slouch either.

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06-10-2010, 08:22 PM
  #27
Zine
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Originally Posted by Blue Dragon View Post
Everyone talks about how Kurri had Gretzky, but we also have to remember that Makarov had Larionov during his years of greatness, and The Professor was no slouch either.
Although a great player, I always though Larionov was the weak-link in the KLM line (if there was such a thing).

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06-10-2010, 09:00 PM
  #28
Canadiens1958
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Center

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Although a great player, I always though Larionov was the weak-link in the KLM line (if there was such a thing).
Larionov was the most important player(center) on the KLM line. Just like Petrov was the key player that allowed Kharlamov and Mikhailov to fully exploit their strengths. Lemaire was what made Lafleur and Shutt effective.

A center that can assume the defensive responsibilty for his wingers is the most important part of a line. The center may not be the most talented of the three linemates but he is the critical part of the line.

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06-10-2010, 09:00 PM
  #29
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Dragon View Post
Everyone talks about how Kurri had Gretzky, but we also have to remember that Makarov had Larionov during his years of greatness, and The Professor was no slouch either.
Larionov was a great player. But comparing him to Wayne Gretzky is like comparing Scott Gomez to Sidney Crosby.

Makarov was the best player on the KLM line, and it isn't by a small margin.

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06-10-2010, 09:01 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Larionov was the most important player(center) on the KLM line. Just like Petrov was the key player that allowed Kharlamov and Mikhailov to fully exploit their strengths. Lemaire was what made Lafleur and Shutt effective.

A center that can assume the defensive responsibilty for his wingers is the most important part of a line. The center may not be the most talented of the three linemates but he is the critical part of the line.
You really think that Jacques Lemaire was more important to the success of his line and the 70s Canadiens than Guy Lafleur?

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06-10-2010, 10:02 PM
  #31
Zine
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Larionov was the most important player(center) on the KLM line. Just like Petrov was the key player that allowed Kharlamov and Mikhailov to fully exploit their strengths. Lemaire was what made Lafleur and Shutt effective.

A center that can assume the defensive responsibilty for his wingers is the most important part of a line. The center may not be the most talented of the three linemates but he is the critical part of the line.
So what.

Yes, the center was the most vital cog for a well rounded line (it certainly was under the Soviet system). But that doesn’t mean Larionov wasn’t the weakest link in terms of achieving optimal performance. As a player, Larionov was always a notch below Makarov and Krutov.


Last edited by Zine: 06-10-2010 at 10:21 PM.
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06-10-2010, 10:24 PM
  #32
Canadiens1958
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Jacques Lemaire

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You really think that Jacques Lemaire was more important to the success of his line and the 70s Canadiens than Guy Lafleur?
Jacques Lemaire allowed Guy Lafleur and Steve Shutt to play their game. The Sabres in 1975 proved the Canadiens were beatable with Pete Mahovlich centering Lafleur.

Look at Lemaire's playoff numbers especially 1971 and 1973,1977-79, coming of an injury in 1976.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...lemaija01.html

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06-10-2010, 11:55 PM
  #33
VMBM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Larionov was the most important player(center) on the KLM line. Just like Petrov was the key player that allowed Kharlamov and Mikhailov to fully exploit their strengths. Lemaire was what made Lafleur and Shutt effective.

A center that can assume the defensive responsibilty for his wingers is the most important part of a line. The center may not be the most talented of the three linemates but he is the critical part of the line.
Not wanting to get into any center vs. winger arguments, but if we are talking about Krutov and Makarov, IMHO these guys would have done just as well with or without Larionov. Watch the 1987 Canada Cup, for example, and whereas Larionov was having one of his weakest tournaments (he was apparently injured) and was faaaaaar behind his wingers points-wise, Makarov and especially Krutov were playing some of the best hockey of their careers and were only slightly behind Gretzky and Lemieux in the tournament scoring.

In the 1985-86 Super series, Larionov did not play; it was Victor Tyumenev (Spartak Moscow) who played center on CSKA's top line, and it had no [negative] effect whatsoever; they were as devastating as always. Then again, this seemed to work the other way around too; if Makarov or Krutov was injured, the line was not considerably weakened with the replacement winger.

For me, Petrov and Larionov is an interesting comparison/subject. Many seem to favour Larionov and I guess he had more hockey sense and blah blah blah, but still it was Petrov who usually outscored his linemates*, whereas Larionov would often be behind Krutov and Makarov in points. Yet it's Larionov who's the 'Professor' and 'Russian Gretzky'. I mean, just imagine Gretzky centering K and M. Some might say that he would not have been a good match with Krutov and Makarov, but I say that line would have killed any living opponent!

Interestingly, in the 1981 World Championships, 33-year old Petrov centered young guns Krutov and Makarov, and guess who was the leading scorer of the 3? Yep, Petrov who was basically on his last legs as a national team player (Petrov 10 pts, Krutov 9 and Makarov 8). I just can't understand why some people act like Petrov was 'Ringo' to Mikhailov and Kharlamov's 'Lennon-McCartney'; just comparing their Soviet league assist numbers should remove any such thoughts.

* from 1973 on, when Petrov was healthy and played all the games, he was the top-scorer in world championship play (1973, '75, '77 and '79)


Last edited by VMBM: 06-11-2010 at 12:15 AM. Reason: 33 and not 32, dammit!
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Old
06-11-2010, 06:44 AM
  #34
Canadiens1958
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Petrov/Larionov

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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Not wanting to get into any center vs. winger arguments, but if we are talking about Krutov and Makarov, IMHO these guys would have done just as well with or without Larionov. Watch the 1987 Canada Cup, for example, and whereas Larionov was having one of his weakest tournaments (he was apparently injured) and was faaaaaar behind his wingers points-wise, Makarov and especially Krutov were playing some of the best hockey of their careers and were only slightly behind Gretzky and Lemieux in the tournament scoring.

In the 1985-86 Super series, Larionov did not play; it was Victor Tyumenev (Spartak Moscow) who played center on CSKA's top line, and it had no [negative] effect whatsoever; they were as devastating as always. Then again, this seemed to work the other way around too; if Makarov or Krutov was injured, the line was not considerably weakened with the replacement winger.

For me, Petrov and Larionov is an interesting comparison/subject. Many seem to favour Larionov and I guess he had more hockey sense and blah blah blah, but still it was Petrov who usually outscored his linemates*, whereas Larionov would often be behind Krutov and Makarov in points. Yet it's Larionov who's the 'Professor' and 'Russian Gretzky'. I mean, just imagine Gretzky centering K and M. Some might say that he would not have been a good match with Krutov and Makarov, but I say that line would have killed any living opponent!

Interestingly, in the 1981 World Championships, 33-year old Petrov centered young guns Krutov and Makarov, and guess who was the leading scorer of the 3? Yep, Petrov who was basically on his last legs as a national team player (Petrov 10 pts, Krutov 9 and Makarov 8). I just can't understand why some people act like Petrov was 'Ringo' to Mikhailov and Kharlamov's 'Lennon-McCartney'; just comparing their Soviet league assist numbers should remove any such thoughts.

* from 1973 on, when Petrov was healthy and played all the games, he was the top-scorer in world championship play (1973, '75, '77 and '79)
Vladimir Petrov was a unique and unappreciated center. He had a near perfect understanding of the strengths and limitations of Kharlamov and Mikhailov while appreciating how the opposition was forced to leave offensive openings which he would exploit. This carried over to the 1981 Canada Cup with Krutov and Makarov. Petrov was extremely efficient on the ice - offensively and defensively.

Igor Larionov did not have the offense that Petrov brought to the rink but he was a better skater and better defensively. The 1987 Canada Cup testifies to his value. Even injured he was allowed to play with the result that Krutov and Makarov were able to play their game without having to adapt to a different center.

Another example of the value of Igor Larionov stems from the KLM efforts in the NHL. Krutov never gave himself a chance. Makarov never developed a synergy with the various centers that he had while Larionov, outside San Jose - bad coaching, was always able to step into the line-up and make his line and team better.

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06-11-2010, 12:24 PM
  #35
seventieslord
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Looking back, I wish I voted that it is close instead of for Kurri.

I might have even voted for Makarov, but I have an immense amount of respect for Jari.

There is compelling evidence, based on dominance of the Soviet league, that Makarov, and not Kharlamov, is the best Russian forward of all-time. He was more dominant domestically, and in a league that was stronger (I think the Russian league got stronger from its inception until 1989, sort of an asymptotal curve)

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06-11-2010, 12:55 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Looking back, I wish I voted that it is close instead of for Kurri.

I might have even voted for Makarov, but I have an immense amount of respect for Jari.

There is compelling evidence, based on dominance of the Soviet league, that Makarov, and not Kharlamov, is the best Russian forward of all-time. He was more dominant domestically, and in a league that was stronger (I think the Russian league got stronger from its inception until 1989, sort of an asymptotal curve)
Dr. Ludek Bukac agrees with you too

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06-11-2010, 12:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
There is compelling evidence, based on dominance of the Soviet league, that Makarov, and not Kharlamov, is the best Russian forward of all-time. He was more dominant domestically, and in a league that was stronger (I think the Russian league got stronger from its inception until 1989, sort of an asymptotal curve)
Well, it was CSKA (and the national team until 1983 or so) who seemed to get stronger and even clearly more dominant than before when Tikhonov took over. I don't know about the rest of the league, though.

At least it's fair to say in my opinion that there were actually more star players in the Seventies rather than in the Eighties, and thus Makarov had less competition in the Soviet league. But as I've suggested here many times, Makarov certainly has a case vs. Kharlamov, just like Firsov and some others too. But such is Kharlamov's legend that it's quite hard to change status quo (i.e. Kharlamov supposedly IS the greatest Russian player ever).

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06-13-2010, 12:14 PM
  #38
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Jari Kurri.

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06-14-2010, 12:08 AM
  #39
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What's really hard to compare the two is that one was a left handed shot and the other a right handed shot.

Putting the shoe on the other foot...does Makarov put up the same kind of numbers that Kurri did playing with Gretzky? Keeping in mind how many goals Kurri racked up while being fed by Gretzky onto the strong side of his stick for so many one-timers that obviously Makarov wouldn't have received.

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06-14-2010, 02:44 AM
  #40
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One of the best comparisons I've seen.

Kurri is one of the most efficient wingers ever. Not flashy or anything. But in all facets of the game does what will best help the team succeed. Very much a winger version of Niklas Lidstrom in that regard. The lingering question is, if he was a teams best player, how would they do?

Makarov on the other hand is tailor made to be the best player on the team. One of only a handful of wingers that could offensive lead a line like a center usually does. But there are all the question marks about playing the NHL game, particularly in the playoffs.

I have to say too close...

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06-14-2010, 04:28 PM
  #41
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One of the best comparisons I've seen.

Kurri is one of the most efficient wingers ever. Not flashy or anything. But in all facets of the game does what will best help the team succeed. Very much a winger version of Niklas Lidstrom in that regard. The lingering question is, if he was a teams best player, how would they do?

Makarov on the other hand is tailor made to be the best player on the team. One of only a handful of wingers that could offensive lead a line like a center usually does. But there are all the question marks about playing the NHL game, particularly in the playoffs.

I have to say too close...
Not sure if I understood it right, but wouldn't Kurri's years 88-90 be just that?

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06-14-2010, 04:30 PM
  #42
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Not sure if I understood it right, but wouldn't Kurri's years 88-90 be just that?
Mark Messier won the Hart in 89-90, so no.

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06-15-2010, 01:26 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Looking back, I wish I voted that it is close instead of for Kurri.

I might have even voted for Makarov, but I have an immense amount of respect for Jari.

There is compelling evidence, based on dominance of the Soviet league, that Makarov, and not Kharlamov, is the best Russian forward of all-time. He was more dominant domestically, and in a league that was stronger (I think the Russian league got stronger from its inception until 1989, sort of an asymptotal curve)
I would put Makarov ahead of Kharlamov, I am against Kharlamov position in the top 100 list. Kharlamov's stats are not as impressive as Makarov and Kharlamov after 1973 was not the same player because of a car accident, Makarov was better for longer. Kharlamov was a fan favourite and many loved his style of play and got the benefit of myth making about him. Obviously you have to be good to have myths made about you, but it can often distort your perception.

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06-15-2010, 03:23 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
I would put Makarov ahead of Kharlamov, I am against Kharlamov position in the top 100 list. Kharlamov's stats are not as impressive as Makarov and Kharlamov after 1973 was not the same player because of a car accident, Makarov was better for longer. Kharlamov was a fan favourite and many loved his style of play and got the benefit of myth making about him. Obviously you have to be good to have myths made about you, but it can often distort your perception.
That would be 1976.

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06-15-2010, 04:11 AM
  #45
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Dr. Ludek Bukac agrees with you too
Now there is a name I haven't heard in ages. Always liked Bukac when he was coaching Germany.

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06-15-2010, 10:07 AM
  #46
vadim sharifijanov
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Mark Messier won the Hart in 89-90, so no.
i'm pretty sure he means '88-'89.

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06-15-2010, 02:23 PM
  #47
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That would be 1976.
Sorry my mistake

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06-21-2010, 12:00 AM
  #48
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bump

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06-21-2010, 01:55 AM
  #49
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i'm pretty sure he means '88-'89.
Which would answer my question as I expect it would.

A team with Kurri as it's best player would make the playoffs in the middle of the conference and either lose a 1st round war or lose to a better team in the second round.

Thusly, I'd say Kurri as a best player is equal to Henrik Sedin.

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06-21-2010, 10:02 PM
  #50
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Sorta on topic... Although noted that of course Makarov did some great stuff the short time he was with calgary so maybe not a big point per say. But in san jose can we agree that when Makarov played with Larionov he was much better when Igor was not injured. Which of course he was quite a bit on and off those 2 years in san jose. Of course maybe larionov just "aged" better then makarov in a sense but.... Hell for some reason I dare say almost all of makarovs points period in that 94-95 season where when larionov was in the line up lol.


Then again maybe im the only biased san jose fan that remembers those days...

*sneaks away*


EDIT: oops I posted this after just reading a couple of the posts in the thread. I see Canadiens1958 already touched on this a bit.


Oh and if it means anything for the topic per say, I seem to recall a quote from joe neiwendyke(im sure I spelled that wrong lol)where he actually said he thought makarov was just as good as gretzkey and lemieux before. Dunno if that means anything but... maybe ill try to go and find it.


Last edited by seekritdude: 06-21-2010 at 10:10 PM.
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