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Old
06-15-2010, 02:56 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I just don't buy this Richter stuff... the guy currently lives in CT and has run for political office, no? I think he wanted some leverage from the Flyers, but didn't really have any interest in actually leaving the Rangers.

I don't disagree about the futility and aggravation of the Flyers goaltending situation over the years, but the narrative of that summer has largely been mistold, IMO.
Your argument regarding leverage makes sense but at the right price which Clarke felt excessive he would have come IMO....

Here is what really went down...looks like the other player besides McCarthy was Marc Bureau another laugher. Now the rationale to sign Brind'amour and Lindros to long term contracts has to be considered but the Flyers at that time weren't under a cap yet right? Sounds more like a Phillies self-imposed cap...(e.g. Cliff Lee). The fact was that extra money was used for Bureau and McCarthy anyway... that was the criticism at the time.

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"The agents for Richter and Joseph thought they had the Rangers and us by the throats and they were going to squeeze until we had nothing left," Flyers G.M. Bobby Clarke says. "It just so happens (the length) of (Beezer's) contract is perfect for us to bring along Jean Marc Pelletier and Brian Boucher in goal, and not rush their development."

It also saved the team money it can use to sign Eric Lindros and Rod Brind'Amour to long-term contracts.

The Flyers also signed Marc Bureau away from Montreal as a checking center to replace the retired Joel Otto, but their defense and team defense have to get better for the team to make it back to the finals. And that is up to Neilson, more than Vanbiesbrouck.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_20944374/

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06-15-2010, 02:58 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Murphy7 View Post
There were many reports of CuJo at least leveraging the Leafs with Flyers talk. I lived through the soap opera, and know there were at least numerous reports of him potentially joining the Flyers. How legit they were can be debated ad infinitum, but that summer was brutal waiting to find out who was joining the Flyers.
Here's from just last month ...



http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...e-flyers-again
See my post...and Clarke should regret it because he decided to go for a 3 for 1 sale...

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06-15-2010, 02:59 PM
  #353
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This is Game Six of a Stanley Cup Final that you trail 3 games to 2, ninety seconds remain, tie game.


At the moment captured here, the puck is on his stick.

Combine that with the MAF choke and that empty-net surrender that have been chronicled here and what do you get?

You get someone with whom the Flyers will never win a Cup.

Doesn't mean that you trade him "for a bag of pucks", but if you get good value esp. a goaltender for this team, you do it.


Last edited by JXC: 06-15-2010 at 03:09 PM.
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06-15-2010, 03:11 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
This is Game Six of a Stanley Cup Final that you trail 3 games to 2, ninety seconds remain, tie game.


At the moment captured here, the puck is on his stick.

Combine that with the MAF choke and that empty-net surrender that have been chronicled here and what do you get?

You get someone with whom the Flyers will never win a Cup.

Doesn't mean that you trade him "for a bag of pucks", but if you get good value esp. a goaltender for this team, you do it.
And the defenceman's stick makes contact with Carter's stick just as he's releasing the puck, preventing him from shooting it higher.

How f'ing stupid can some people be?

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06-15-2010, 03:14 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
And the defenceman's stick makes contact with Carter's stick just as he's releasing the puck, preventing him from shooting it higher.

How f'ing stupid can some people be?
Well, it is JXC.

However, Carter absolutely screwed the pooch by not just immediately burying the puck. There was no need to pause for a moment.

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06-15-2010, 03:38 PM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
And the defenceman's stick makes contact with Carter's stick just as he's releasing the puck, preventing him from shooting it higher.

How f'ing stupid can some people be?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, it is JXC.

However, Carter absolutely screwed the pooch by not just immediately burying the puck. There was no need to pause for a moment.
Regardless of feelings towards Carter, that still shot breaks my heart.

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06-15-2010, 03:44 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, it is JXC.

However, Carter absolutely screwed the pooch by not just immediately burying the puck. There was no need to pause for a moment.
It's really hard to say that definitively. We've all seen what rushing to one time a shot can mean.

For example, see Richards in game 5 - he had more time than he knew he had to settle the puck down, but that's easy to say after the fact - on the ice things happen quickly.

Leino's chance is a good example too, bouncing puck hit with a one-timer missed by inches.

In Carter's case, the ice was bad at the end of the game. You can hardly blame a guy known for his patience and goal scoring ability for not panicking and shooting immediately - which could have led to a failure to raise the puck or having the puck bounce over his stick.

We're talking fractions of seconds and fractions of inches here, surrounded by Dmen on both sides. If he had just pounded it into Niemi's pads, the same critdicks would be harping about him not having more patience.

He made sure the puck was settled on his stick before shooting. That's all. We'll never know if he could have just slapped it, but I'm sure the whole team was being told, "if you get a chance, don't just shoot, make sure to roof it."

I'm sure Richards wishes he'd raised the loose puck he picked up in OT too.

Carter looked like he was trying to roof it, Campbell's stick just got enough of his to stop the follow through. Not an issue.

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06-15-2010, 04:29 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
It's really hard to say that definitively. We've all seen what rushing to one time a shot can mean.

For example, see Richards in game 5 - he had more time than he knew he had to settle the puck down, but that's easy to say after the fact - on the ice things happen quickly.

Leino's chance is a good example too, bouncing puck hit with a one-timer missed by inches.

In Carter's case, the ice was bad at the end of the game. You can hardly blame a guy known for his patience and goal scoring ability for not panicking and shooting immediately - which could have led to a failure to raise the puck or having the puck bounce over his stick.

We're talking fractions of seconds and fractions of inches here, surrounded by Dmen on both sides. If he had just pounded it into Niemi's pads, the same critdicks would be harping about him not having more patience.

He made sure the puck was settled on his stick before shooting. That's all. We'll never know if he could have just slapped it, but I'm sure the whole team was being told, "if you get a chance, don't just shoot, make sure to roof it."

I'm sure Richards wishes he'd raised the loose puck he picked up in OT too.

Carter looked like he was trying to roof it, Campbell's stick just got enough of his to stop the follow through. Not an issue.
He didn't even need to one-time it, though. All he needed to do was catch and release rather than trying to move around the defender to the front of the net... he had an empty net in front of him... and as a right hand shot, that should have been an easy play.

Unfortunately, he showed patience when he really didn't need to, and it allowed them to defend him.

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06-15-2010, 10:55 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
And the defenceman's stick makes contact with Carter's stick just as he's releasing the puck, preventing him from shooting it higher.
OMIGOSH really? Nevermind, I guess, this isn't the kind of play a "goal scorer" should cash in.





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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
In Carter's case, the ice was bad at the end of the game.
Oh.

My.

God.

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06-15-2010, 11:10 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
This is Game Six of a Stanley Cup Final that you trail 3 games to 2, ninety seconds remain, tie game.


At the moment captured here, the puck is on his stick.

Combine that with the MAF choke and that empty-net surrender that have been chronicled here and what do you get?

You get someone with whom the Flyers will never win a Cup.

Doesn't mean that you trade him "for a bag of pucks", but if you get good value esp. a goaltender for this team, you do it.
I want to die seeing that. Why, Jeff, why?!?!?!?!?!?!

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06-15-2010, 11:12 PM
  #361
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If you are blaming Carter for that play, then you have never played hockey at a high level before.

Watch the replay (NOT the still shot), the puck doesnt hit your stick and stop moving. It is NOT just a sweep into an empty net. He does NOT have very much time to bring the puck onto his tape, and sweep it across his body with Campbell about to get a stick on him. Look at the replay and watch how quickly Campbell gets onto Carter. He has no time to make a sweep across his body with the shot.

If you want to blame Carter for something on that play, blame him for shooting it right back at Niemi. As a goal scorer, he should know that the high, near side was where he had unlimited space. But it's not easy to pick your corner when you are taking a spin around shot like that. He made the smart hockey play, he wouldnt have scored if he tried to slam dunk that. The puck bounces right off, and it gets cleared by Campbell.

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06-16-2010, 09:48 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
If you are blaming Carter for that play, then you have never played hockey at a high level before.

Watch the replay (NOT the still shot), the puck doesnt hit your stick and stop moving. It is NOT just a sweep into an empty net. He does NOT have very much time to bring the puck onto his tape, and sweep it across his body with Campbell about to get a stick on him. Look at the replay and watch how quickly Campbell gets onto Carter. He has no time to make a sweep across his body with the shot.
He didn't need to even get much on the shot, man. The net was wide open, he could have just bunted the puck into the open net. Watch the highlight live, he easily could have put the puck in, but he chose to try and move around Campbell, which allowed Niemi to get back into the net and make a play on the shot.

Quote:
If you want to blame Carter for something on that play, blame him for shooting it right back at Niemi. As a goal scorer, he should know that the high, near side was where he had unlimited space. But it's not easy to pick your corner when you are taking a spin around shot like that. He made the smart hockey play, he wouldnt have scored if he tried to slam dunk that. The puck bounces right off, and it gets cleared by Campbell.

If you are blaming Carter for that play, then you have never played hockey at a high level before.

Campbell got his stick in there and screwed up Carter's release... the puck did not go where he intended it to go.

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06-16-2010, 01:09 PM
  #363
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Greetings!

Long time Flyers fan here (my whole life) but I live in C-Bus and I love hockey so here's to supporting the local team!

I have a question. If the Flyers were to move Carter, as there's been speculation everywhere now, and Columbus was a possible destination... what would it legitimately take to make it happen???

Are the Flyers looking to more cap space??? What's the primary need (other than goal-tending)???

I've seen proposals of Carter 2 C-bus for the #4, a forward prospect or the new goalie prospect we just signed out of Europe (or both), and shut-down D-Man.

Pretty much with the way management is running right now... the "untouchables" are:

Nash, Mason, Voracek, Russel, Umberger (although maybe for the right price I've heard).

Any thoughts?

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06-16-2010, 01:24 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by BJFan1 View Post
Greetings!

Long time Flyers fan here (my whole life) but I live in C-Bus and I love hockey so here's to supporting the local team!

I have a question. If the Flyers were to move Carter, as there's been speculation everywhere now, and Columbus was a possible destination... what would it legitimately take to make it happen???

Are the Flyers looking to more cap space??? What's the primary need (other than goal-tending)???

I've seen proposals of Carter 2 C-bus for the #4, a forward prospect or the new goalie prospect we just signed out of Europe (or both), and shut-down D-Man.

Pretty much with the way management is running right now... the "untouchables" are:

Nash, Mason, Voracek, Russel, Umberger (although maybe for the right price I've heard).

Any thoughts?
The thing is, when you trade a guy like Carter you can't just name every good young player on your team and say he is untouchable. Lets try this, I want Nash, what do you want for him other than Richards, Carter, JVR, and Giroux? Make a proposal!

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06-16-2010, 01:46 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by FlyerEra2010 View Post
I want to die seeing that. Why, Jeff, why?!?!?!?!?!?!
Same. Christ. I don't care how, you need to bury that. Carter is not clutch in any way, shape or form. If only one of 2nd liners had been there instead, guh it's heartbreaking to think about

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06-16-2010, 02:06 PM
  #366
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Same. Christ. I don't care how, you need to bury that. Carter is not clutch in any way, shape or form. If only one of 2nd liners had been there instead, guh it's heartbreaking to think about
Not clutch? He's only lead the team in game winning goals the past two seasons.

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06-16-2010, 02:23 PM
  #367
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if Richards had missed that same opportunity there wouldnt be nearly the amount of critisism as there is for Carter not scoring on that play.

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06-16-2010, 02:26 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
if Richards had missed that same opportunity there wouldnt be nearly the amount of critisism as there is for Carter not scoring on that play.
Carter is the Flyers version of Donovan McNabb. Carter will never be appreciated for what he does because he is not the blue collar player Philly sports fans love.

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06-16-2010, 02:30 PM
  #369
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Not clutch? He's only lead the team in game winning goals the past two seasons.
GWG is not a "clutch" stat, it's purely random. Carter has led the team in goals, therefore you'd expect him to lead 'em in GWGs.

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06-16-2010, 02:36 PM
  #370
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He didn't need to even get much on the shot, man. The net was wide open, he could have just bunted the puck into the open net. Watch the highlight live, he easily could have put the puck in, but he chose to try and move around Campbell, which allowed Niemi to get back into the net and make a play on the shot.




If you are blaming Carter for that play, then you have never played hockey at a high level before.

Campbell got his stick in there and screwed up Carter's release... the puck did not go where he intended it to go.
He couldnt bunt the puck into the net because his stick is not in position to go across his body. He is coming from behind the net and it is not physically possible that he shoots it into the net since he is not perpendicular to the pass. It was not a play to be simply redirected into the net, it needed to be actually placed into the net by a legitimate shot from Carter. He couldnt have "easily put it in the net". The puck bounces off his stick, so by the time he actually would have gotten a hold of the puck, Campbell had already spun around. Not a chance for him trying to slam dunk that one in.



And I am not blaming him for anything. Watch the highlight, the puck was off of his stick before he makes contact with Campbell's stick. He probably could have gotten it farther to the short side, but that isnt the point. I dont think he is to blame. He made the smart play by taking his time, 9 times out of 10, he will bury that goal by going around Campbell.

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06-16-2010, 02:51 PM
  #371
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The thing is, when you trade a guy like Carter you can't just name every good young player on your team and say he is untouchable. Lets try this, I want Nash, what do you want for him other than Richards, Carter, JVR, and Giroux? Make a proposal!
All??? There were 4 there... the ones they are building around. There are plently of other young talent on the team. Take Brassard for example....

I'd go #4, Filatov, and a prospect for Carter. C-Bus gets a top center they need and Philly pulls a prospect, top draft pick, and a "flyer" on Filatov. The kid could be a star and would wing a 2nd/3rd line in Philly nicely.

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06-16-2010, 02:51 PM
  #372
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GWG is not a "clutch" stat, it's purely random. Carter has led the team in goals, therefore you'd expect him to lead 'em in GWGs.
Well, yes, of course "clutch" itself is completely random and is not a skill. I agree that your best goal scorer is likely to have the most game winners, but Gagne had a great goal scoring season last year and didn't come close to Carter in GWG's. I'm just merely dispelling the notion that Carter doesn't score big and timely goals. It just feels like with Carter certain sects of the fan base constantly focuses on what he doesn't do instead of what he does. Like I said he is the Flyers version of Donovan McNabb.

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06-16-2010, 02:55 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by BJFan1 View Post
All??? There were 4 there... the ones they are building around. There are plently of other young talent on the team. Take Brassard for example....

I'd go #4, Filatov, and a prospect for Carter. C-Bus gets a top center they need and Philly pulls a prospect, top draft pick, and a "flyer" on Filatov. The kid could be a star and would wing a 2nd/3rd line in Philly nicely.
I don't want to see Filatov a Flyer at all, and especially not for Carter. But thanks anyway. Voracek is another story entirely. I wanted him to become a Flyer at the draft, so I keep hoping...

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06-16-2010, 02:59 PM
  #374
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All??? There were 4 there... the ones they are building around. There are plently of other young talent on the team. Take Brassard for example....

I'd go #4, Filatov, and a prospect for Carter. C-Bus gets a top center they need and Philly pulls a prospect, top draft pick, and a "flyer" on Filatov. The kid could be a star and would wing a 2nd/3rd line in Philly nicely.
These are very nice assets, but it doesn't do anything to make our team better now. If we had to move him I'd do a deal along those lines, but right now the only reason to move him is if it improves the team since our goal is to win the Cup next year.

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06-16-2010, 03:10 PM
  #375
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He couldnt bunt the puck into the net because his stick is not in position to go across his body. He is coming from behind the net and it is not physically possible that he shoots it into the net since he is not perpendicular to the pass. It was not a play to be simply redirected into the net, it needed to be actually placed into the net by a legitimate shot from Carter. He couldnt have "easily put it in the net". The puck bounces off his stick, so by the time he actually would have gotten a hold of the puck, Campbell had already spun around. Not a chance for him trying to slam dunk that one in.



And I am not blaming him for anything. Watch the highlight, the puck was off of his stick before he makes contact with Campbell's stick. He probably could have gotten it farther to the short side, but that isnt the point. I dont think he is to blame. He made the smart play by taking his time, 9 times out of 10, he will bury that goal by going around Campbell.
OK, that's all hogwash, before even getting to the puck bouncing. Why? Because the move to jam the puck should have come before he tried to control the puck. He may have missed, but he had an open net. As a right hand shot, he could have put that puck on net with relative ease for a player of his skill level. You just turn your blade over a bit and shuffle the puck across your body... or just pivot your body with your stick turning the puck into the open net. Even if it bounces off his stick while he does that, it's going to be bouncing towards the net... not away from it. It bounced out there because he'd already made his mind up where he was going and thus had the face of his stick going in that direction.

Even then, once he gets around Campbell... he could have actually taken a bit more time at that point as Cambpell was wiping out. However, when he releases the puck Campbell gets his stick in there and that stops him from really letting him get the puck up as much as I'm sure he wanted to. Even then, it's pure luck that Niemi just happens to get his face in the way.

I think the folks blasting Carter are going way too far... but he absolutely could have put it on net right away, and going out in front actually brought more defense to him.

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