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Howe Vs Orr?

View Poll Results: Howe Vs Orr?
Howe 32 31.07%
Orr 71 68.93%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-10-2010, 08:08 PM
  #1
SidGenoMario
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Howe Vs Orr?

Yes I know debates about the best of all-time have been done to death, but the Howe-Lemieux thread was great and very informative, we should do one for these 2.

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06-10-2010, 08:12 PM
  #2
Crosbyfan
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Howe by a nose...

and 2 knees.

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06-10-2010, 08:22 PM
  #3
WayneThornton
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Orr wins...this poll is a joke.

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06-10-2010, 08:57 PM
  #4
85highlander
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I will never utter a disrespectful word against Mr. Hockey, but Bobby Orr was all of hockey in one person. There have been other great two way players, including Howe, but Orr remains the only defenseman to win scoring championships while playing a tough defense. It still feels odd so many years later to consider this feat.

And, everyone knows how tough Gordie was, but not as well known is how tough Orr consistently was. From a rookie as 6th in the NHL in PIM, and the fact the he had as many fights in his 600+ games as Howe, Gretzky, and Lemeiux did in their 4,000+ games COMBINED, he was an all-around beast. A stupid stat, I know, but Orr had as many fights as the other big three combined in nearly 4,000 less games (including a small portion of WHA stats as well for Howe and Gretzky).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd1lfKxMYXE


Last edited by 85highlander: 06-10-2010 at 09:03 PM.
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06-10-2010, 09:45 PM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
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This is a very close poll, much closer than Howe vs. Lemieux in my opinion.

Howe/Lemieux was a case of two players with equal peaks (Lemieux a bit better offensively if you take competition into account, Howe with other qualities that makes them even). But then Howe has such greater career value, he's an easy pick over Mario.

In this case, I think Orr has a small, but clear edge in peak over Howe. But Howe's longevity is so much greater than Orr's that I have to give him the vote by a tiny bit.

This is how I rate the consensus top 4 players of all time:

1) Gretzky - tied with Orr for best peak of all time. Much more longevity than Orr. Also, the best playoff performer of the top 4 (the other 3 each had a couple of down playoffs, Gretzky really didn't).

2) Howe - slightly worse peak than Gretzky or Orr. But more longevity than Gretzky and much more than Orr.

3) Orr - tied with Gretzky for best peak of all time, but had an injury-shortened career.

4) Lemieux - tied with Howe in peak, just a bit behind Gretzky and Orr. Also injury-prone.

For me, Howe/Orr for 2/3 is the only debate among the top 4. But in the end, I think Howe's edge in longevity and career value overwhelms the small but clear edge that Orr has in peak.

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06-10-2010, 09:47 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post

And, everyone knows how tough Gordie was, but not as well known is how tough Orr consistently was. From a rookie as 6th in the NHL in PIM, and the fact the he had as many fights in his 600+ games as Howe, Gretzky, and Lemeiux did in their 4,000+ games COMBINED, he was an all-around beast. A stupid stat, I know, but Orr had as many fights as the other big three combined in nearly 4,000 less games (including a small portion of WHA stats as well for Howe and Gretzky).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd1lfKxMYXE

I realize that Orr was a really tough player, but this is pretty silly. You are basically saying that Orr had as many fights combined as Howe and two guys who virtually never fought.

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06-10-2010, 10:01 PM
  #7
85highlander
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Again, I said it was a stupid stat, and perhaps silly, but one that rarely gets mentioned. Forget Gretzky and Lemeiux -- Orr and Howe compare as such:

G. Howe played in 2187 games (NHL and WHA) and had 25 fighting majors.
B. Orr played in 657 games and had 39 fighting majors.

Orr's diminished career because of injuries was directly proportional to his approach to the game. He was in attack mode consistently....everywhere on the ice...and this style of play came at the price of a shortened career.

Howe has the more impressive career when longevity is considered, but Orr was the the more dominant player while he was able to play, imo.

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06-10-2010, 10:09 PM
  #8
Canadiens1958
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Distinction

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
Again, I said it was a stupid stat, and perhaps silly, but one that rarely gets mentioned. Forget Gretzky and Lemeiux -- Orr and Howe compare as such:

G. Howe played in 2187 games (NHL and WHA) and had 25 fighting majors.
B. Orr played in 657 games and had 39 fighting majors.

Orr's diminished career because of injuries was directly proportional to his approach to the game. He was in attack mode consistently....everywhere on the ice...and this style of play came at the price of a shortened career.

Howe has the more impressive career when longevity is considered, but Orr was the the more dominant player while he was able to play, imo.
85highlander is raising an interesting distinction.

Basically he seems to be saying that Bobby Orr took the game to the opposition, forcing mistakes and attacking.

On the other hand Gordie Howe played a more traditional game. Conservative approach, waiting for the opposition to make a mistake.

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06-10-2010, 10:16 PM
  #9
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If not for the injuries, Orr could have been ahead of Howe but, the injuries did happen.

Howe had the greater career by a significant margin.

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06-10-2010, 11:17 PM
  #10
Peter9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
85highlander is raising an interesting distinction.

Basically he seems to be saying that Bobby Orr took the game to the opposition, forcing mistakes and attacking.

On the other hand Gordie Howe played a more traditional game. Conservative approach, waiting for the opposition to make a mistake.
Howe's whole approach to the game was a measured one. He was much more about strength and control than he was about dash and flair. He skated at a fairly moderate, sometimes even leisurely, pace throughout his lengthy shifts. That may also be one of the reasons for his remarkable longevity.

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06-11-2010, 12:20 AM
  #11
greatgazoo
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Orr changed the way that a position is played. Howe did not. I voted Orr.

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06-11-2010, 12:58 AM
  #12
shazariahl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is a very close poll, much closer than Howe vs. Lemieux in my opinion.

Howe/Lemieux was a case of two players with equal peaks (Lemieux a bit better offensively if you take competition into account, Howe with other qualities that makes them even). But then Howe has such greater career value, he's an easy pick over Mario.

In this case, I think Orr has a small, but clear edge in peak over Howe. But Howe's longevity is so much greater than Orr's that I have to give him the vote by a tiny bit.

This is how I rate the consensus top 4 players of all time:

1) Gretzky - tied with Orr for best peak of all time. Much more longevity than Orr. Also, the best playoff performer of the top 4 (the other 3 each had a couple of down playoffs, Gretzky really didn't).

2) Howe - slightly worse peak than Gretzky or Orr. But more longevity than Gretzky and much more than Orr.

3) Orr - tied with Gretzky for best peak of all time, but had an injury-shortened career.

4) Lemieux - tied with Howe in peak, just a bit behind Gretzky and Orr. Also injury-prone.

For me, Howe/Orr for 2/3 is the only debate among the top 4. But in the end, I think Howe's edge in longevity and career value overwhelms the small but clear edge that Orr has in peak.
I agree with every single word you said, I'm just not sure I can still bring myself to vote for Howe, lol. I will remain undecided. Howe wins on career, but Orr's peak is rivaled only by Gretzky.

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06-11-2010, 07:50 AM
  #13
Canadiens1958
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Power Forward

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgazoo View Post
Orr changed the way that a position is played. Howe did not. I voted Orr.
Gordie Howe created and defined the role of a power forward. Just like Orr did created and defined the role of an offensive defenseman.

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06-11-2010, 08:48 AM
  #14
steve141
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I'm a bit surprised by the lack of arguments. Orr seems to be getting the peak vote unanimously, Howe the career vote.

I'm still waiting for anyone to argue that Howe had the better peak or that Orr had the better career. Otherwise it's just a matter of taste if you value peak or career.

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06-11-2010, 09:16 AM
  #15
Psycho Papa Joe
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Interesting that a 41 year old Howe was able to get 103pts in the NHL that Orr ended up dominating. Makes you wonder what a 20-33 year old peak Howe could have accomplished in the post expansion NHL.

As for peak vs peak, Howe has a big edge in Harts and faced as good or better competition than Orr.

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06-11-2010, 09:18 AM
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revolverjgw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post

As for peak vs peak, Howe has a big edge in Harts and faced as good or better competition than Orr.
The only explanation for Orr's low Hart count is his position and lame "MVP" semantics. He should have won it unanimously every year. He was a tier above everybody else.

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06-11-2010, 09:25 AM
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jkrx
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Both are equals in value to hockey and in being defining for their style of play. Career>peak unless the peak lasts for an extended period of time in my opinion. I qouls argue that not only does Howe have better career value but also a longer top permorming peak aswell as still being able to be a an elite player for atleast 20+ seasons.

The physical aspect and fighting is not silly but a completely ridiculous comparison. Most know that after Howe beat people senseless most players (even heavyweights) just simply avoided to fight with him. On another note Howe was explicity told by Adams that he should not fight.

Fun fact: Howe is seen on a picture frame in Simpons. His career stats is shown at the end credits. To my knowledge Orr havent accomplished such a feat.

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06-11-2010, 09:29 AM
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Orr's edge in his prime is not enough to cancel out his complete lack of play for over a decade while Howe was still one of the best players in the world.

To quantify:

Peak
Orr = 10
Howe = 8.5

I believe Orr has the highest peak of all players in history. Gretzky would be a 9.

Prime
Orr = 10
Howe = 9.5

Another slight edge to Orr.

Career
Orr = 6
Howe = 10

Howe played elite hockey for *15* more years than Orr.

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06-11-2010, 09:34 AM
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Psycho Papa Joe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
The only explanation for Orr's low Hart count is his position and lame "MVP" semantics. He should have won it unanimously every year. He was a tier above everybody else.
By the same token, there were some odd "MVP" semantics early in Howe's career which cost him 2 or 3 Harts. Howe also faced more peak top 10-20 all time player in Hart voting than did Orr.

Just one question for people who watched hockey in the 70-75 period? How did Orr end up with just one Pearson trophy? My recollections are very sketchy for that time period.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 06-11-2010 at 09:45 AM.
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06-11-2010, 10:10 AM
  #20
Canadiens1958
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Pearson Trophy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
By the same token, there were some odd "MVP" semantics early in Howe's career which cost him 2 or 3 Harts. Howe also faced more peak top 10-20 all time player in Hart voting than did Orr.

Just one question for people who watched hockey in the 70-75 period? How did Orr end up with just one Pearson trophy? My recollections are very sketchy for that time period.
The Pearson Trophy. Outstanding player as voted on by the NHLPA. Open to interpretation, best, most valuable, outstanding as in terms of contribution or surpassing expectations, stand alone or within a team, etc.

Basic issue during the 1970 - 75 era was that with Orr the Bruins did not dominate as expected due to weak goaltending and coaching. Inevitably when it came to Hart or Pearson voting the voters tended to look elsewhere for the player who made a difference.

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06-11-2010, 10:30 AM
  #21
shazariahl
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With this much support for Howe, I'm starting to wonder why so many people rank Orr as 1 or 2 of all time. I honestly can't decide between them, but some of these Howe arguements are starting to make me rethink my evaluation.

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06-11-2010, 10:49 AM
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85highlander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Both are equals in value to hockey and in being defining for their style of play. Career>peak unless the peak lasts for an extended period of time in my opinion. I qouls argue that not only does Howe have better career value but also a longer top permorming peak aswell as still being able to be a an elite player for atleast 20+ seasons.

The physical aspect and fighting is not silly but a completely ridiculous comparison. Most know that after Howe beat people senseless most players (even heavyweights) just simply avoided to fight with him. On another note Howe was explicity told by Adams that he should not fight.

Fun fact: Howe is seen on a picture frame in Simpons. His career stats is shown at the end credits. To my knowledge Orr havent accomplished such a feat.
The physical aspect is relevant for the following reason -- Orr's style of play guaranteed a shortened career. I'm not a big proponent of "what if" scenarios where folks try to speculate what might have been if Orr had played as long as Howe, Gretzky, etc. It doesn't make any sense, given the style of his game, and with it he opened the door to revolutionizing an entire position and the game.

Orr sacrificed his body for the sake of a different vision of the game, and it came at a price, one he never complained about -- he knew it was his fate -- it was Achilles like. Achilles was offered two fates, a shortened life, but with much glory....or a longer life free of battles. Orr, like Achilles, chose the former.

A player who is the dominant player in every zone is the more dominant player. Howe was a fantastic defensive player, but he wasn't a defenseman (duh) who was winning Norris trophies while also leading the league in scoring. And to ask why Orr wasn't winning more MVP's is to miss this point entirely. How come Howe didn't win any Norris trophies? Yes, an invalid question because Howe wasn't a defenseman (physically more demanding), yet it shows how the argumentation towards these comparisons are usually skewed. Other than Pronger for one year, no other defenseman has even won the Hart trophy, so to "punish" Orr for this is skewed, for he was a defenseman first who also lead the league in scoring....

There has always been an anti-bias against defensemen since the inception of the Norris. The fact that Orr was able to transcend this bias again speaks to his greatness.

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06-11-2010, 11:20 AM
  #23
jkrx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85highlander View Post
The physical aspect is relevant for the following reason -- Orr's style of play guaranteed a shortened career. I'm not a big proponent of "what if" scenarios where folks try to speculate what might have been if Orr had played as long as Howe, Gretzky, etc. It doesn't make any sense, given the style of his game, and with it he opened the door to revolutionizing an entire position and the game.

Orr sacrificed his body for the sake of a different vision of the game, and it came at a price, one he never complained about -- he knew it was his fate -- it was Achilles like. Achilles was offered two fates, a shortened life, but with much glory....or a longer life free of battles. Orr, like Achilles, chose the former.

A player who is the dominant player in every zone is the more dominant player. Howe was a fantastic defensive player, but he wasn't a defenseman (duh) who was winning Norris trophies while also leading the league in scoring. And to ask why Orr wasn't winning more MVP's is to miss this point entirely. How come Howe didn't win any Norris trophies? Yes, an invalid question because Howe wasn't a defenseman (physically more demanding), yet it shows how the argumentation towards these comparisons are usually skewed. Other than Pronger for one year, no other defenseman has even won the Hart trophy, so to "punish" Orr for this is skewed, for he was a defenseman first who also lead the league in scoring....

There has always been an anti-bias against defensemen since the inception of the Norris. The fact that Orr was able to transcend this bias again speaks to his greatness.
Im not denying he was physical but fighting majors doesnt really say if a guy is physical or not.

As to sacrificing his body, well, so did Howe. ALOT. Even cracked his skull open and still came back and played 29 more seasons.

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06-11-2010, 11:28 AM
  #24
SidGenoMario
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I've always heard Orr's defensive play was good, how good was it? Would he win Norris trophies just on the strength of his defensive play?

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06-11-2010, 11:38 AM
  #25
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Going with Bobby Orr here.

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