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As per Bob McKenzie's segment on the Team 990

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Old
06-14-2010, 12:29 PM
  #176
Andy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Sarcasm here is not particularly appropriate. There's a difference between getting brilliant goaltending from an unlikely source and not needing brilliant goaltending.

A player that has responded well to hard challenges is more valuable than one who has not, so if the strategy is to trade that player because he's more attractive to some other team, that's just bad management strategy.
No the difference is having a well-built team so you don't have to only rely on your goalie to win games. We have two good goalies, you trade the one that brings the best return.

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06-14-2010, 12:38 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
What i don't get about you Ohashi is that I see you on other boards defending potential of other players, but you always, always brush off Price's potential with comments like 'old dusty stats."
Actually, you've probably never seen me "brush off Price's potential". What you WILL find, is me brushing off a half season of stats from 2 years ago for ANYONE if there's an attempt to use them as a defining argument against 2 complete years of more recently observed trends.

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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
And Ohashi, where did I say it wasn't the most important position? please find those words in my post....and thanks for taking my post out of context.

Goaltending is the most important position if your team isn't well built. if you have two assets in one position, you trade which ever brings back the best value to improve the rest of your club so you dom't have to rely on your goaltender.
Then you'll have to explain to me what you meant by your response quoting that particular post, because it certainly wasn't clear to me how/where your sarcasm was being directed. Not even your explanation in paragraph 2 above clears the mud, given that many would argue that the Habs (if we narrow the focus from the more general comment originally made, to what concerns us all the most) aren't exactly "well built"... or at least not well enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
What I'm saying is: You don't have to have a gem between the posts to succeed and win a Cup. You just have to count on a guy that gets hot at the right time, playing behind motivated players.

I don't think neither Niemi or Leighton would have passed Washington playing for the Habs.
And you know what? The guy you replied to never suggested anything to the contrary. Not even close, in fact.

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Old
06-14-2010, 12:43 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Actually, you've probably never seen me "brush off Price's potential". What you WILL find, is me brushing off a half season of stats from 2 years ago for ANYONE if there's an attempt to use them as a defining argument against 2 complete years of more recently observed trends.



Then you'll have to explain to me what you meant by your response quoting that particular post, because it certainly wasn't clear to me how/where your sarcasm was being directed. Not even your explanation in paragraph 2 above clears the mud, given that many would argue that the Habs (if we narrow the focus from the more general comment originally made, to what concerns us all the most) aren't exactly "well built"... or at least not well enough.



And you know what? The guy you replied to never suggested anything to the contrary. Not even close, in fact.
And of course you come here and play stupid as you always do. Dude I'm not going to bother arguing with you because you have your particular sets of beliefs(plus i'm at work and don't have time to write out long posts), that probably will not change.

Read what Earl wrote, then read my response, not that hard to understand, pretty straight forward, if you think there is some hidden message to it, you figure it out.

We have two good goaltenders, one who is better right now. Whoever allows us to build a better team so we don't have to rely on one player to win us games should be the one who gets traded, which is exactly why gautheir is shopping both goalies and determining their value and he doesn't have to trade either if he;'s not comfortable with the return.

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06-14-2010, 12:58 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Yeah, but they'd have to add something pretty big with Bergulnd to make it work(like their 2010 1st).
Berglund and Backes

for

Halak, Sergei and Andrei Kostistsyn ,Montreal's 1st overall


I can dream can't I?

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06-14-2010, 01:17 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
And of course you come here and play stupid as you always do. Dude I'm not going to bother arguing with you because you have your particular sets of beliefs(plus i'm at work and don't have time to write out long posts), that probably will not change.
Funny, I'm one of the ones who HAS actually changed. Chances are, as the team changes, and players develop/regress, I'll reassess any opinions concerning them. Two years ago I was a "Price is Jesus" and "Halak is at least an adequate alternative" guy but now I'm a "Price will likely be a really good goaltender, but I'm not holding out for superstar" and "Halak should definitely be the #1 next year" guy. I've even searched my own posts from 2, 3 years ago for the links, if you need them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Read what Earl wrote, then read my response, not that hard to understand, pretty straight forward, if you think there is some hidden message to it, you figure it out.
Pretty straight forward? Okay then... well... I don't see how Chicago and Philly having success with "2nd tier goaltenders" has anything to do with the importance of the goaltending position (nor the importance of having the right guy in that position, as opposed, even, to someone else who might technically be more "talented"). But I'll assume that you've explained it to yourself well enough that I won't harp on it anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
We have two good goaltenders, one who is better right now. Whoever allows us to build a better team so we don't have to rely on one player to win us games should be the one who gets traded, which is exactly why gautheir is shopping both goalies and determining their value and he doesn't have to trade either if he;'s not comfortable with the return.
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with all of that. Don't know where any of this was in your comment about "2nd tier goalies", but this would have been a much better reply in the first place.

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Old
06-14-2010, 01:20 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Funny, I'm one of the ones who HAS actually changed. Chances are, as the team changes, and players develop/regress, I'll reassess any opinions concerning them. Two years ago I was a "Price is Jesus" and "Halak is at least an adequate alternative" guy but now I'm a "Price will likely be a really good goaltender, but I'm not holding out for superstar" and "Halak should definitely be the #1 next year" guy. I've even searched my own posts from 2, 3 years ago for the links, if you need them.



Pretty straight forward? Okay then... well... I don't see how Chicago and Philly having success with "2nd tier goaltenders" has anything to do with the importance of the goaltending position (nor the importance of having the right guy in that position, as opposed, even, to someone else who might technically be more "talented"). But I'll assume that you've explained it to yourself well enough that I won't harp on it anymore.



Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with all of that. Don't know where any of this was in your comment about "2nd tier goalies", but this would have been a much better reply in the first place.
So your picking on 2nd tier comment. How important were the Flyers goaltending or Chicago's in getting them to the finals...cmon tell me.

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06-14-2010, 01:28 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
So your picking on 2nd tier comment. How important were the Flyers goaltending or Chicago's in getting them to the finals...cmon tell me.
Umm... did you happen to notice which goalie finished the playoffs with the lowest GAA, and second highest SV% (after Halak... another "2nd tier guy")? 6W-0L, and only 9 goals allowed at home at one point also rings a bell. I'd say that's pretty important. The Blackhawks were outshot in (almost?) every game against San Jose (the 4th highest scoring team in the regular season), facing over 40 shots a couple of times (including once in overtime), and yet Niemi never let in more than 2 goals in any of the games. That was probably pretty important, too.

Do I really have to go on?

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06-14-2010, 01:32 PM
  #183
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you all will be sorely sorely disappointed, and probably upset when either 1 of 2 things happens:

A)They keep both goalies

B) they dont get what habs fans will deem "true value" for their prized goalies. Please, please look up recent trades for goalies. Its nothing short of underwhelming. Even the most high profile goalie trade in recent memory (Luongo) wielded nothing substanial for the Panthers.

Im just saying, these proposals and some posters mentatlity is that either goalie will yield a return that will turn around the franchise, and its just not going to happen.

And IF, and its a big IF IMO, a goalie is traded, everyone will be pissed and calling for gauthier`s head.

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Old
06-14-2010, 01:36 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Umm... did you happen to notice which goalie finished the playoffs with the lowest GAA, and second highest SV% (after Halak... another "2nd tier guy")? 6W-0L, and only 9 goals allowed at home at one point also rings a bell. I'd say that's pretty important. The Blackhawks were outshot in (almost?) every game against San Jose (the 4th highest scoring team in the regular season), facing over 40 shots a couple of times (including once in overtime), and yet Niemi never let in more than 2 goals in any of the games. That was probably pretty important, too.

Do I really have to go on?
40 quality shots are better than 10 quality and 30 meh shots.

Chicago and Philadelphia's d played a huge role in keeping good opportunities down.

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06-14-2010, 01:47 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
40 quality shots are better than 10 quality and 30 meh shots.

Chicago and Philadelphia's d played a huge role in keeping good opportunities down.
All I can say is that "meh shots" can (and do) go in as well, so stopping them on the way to wins doesn't reduce the importance of the goaltender.

I mean, to look at it another way, many teams pull their goalie in favour of putting their 6 best players on the ice in order to score. Now, it quite often works, but overall would you say teams score or allow more goals with the goalie pulled? That's not a "be all, end all" point in and of itself, but it goes to show that one extra player, no matter how good, usually doesn't affect the outcome of a game as much as the goalie.

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06-14-2010, 01:53 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Mats NAslund View Post
Berglund and Backes

for

Halak, Sergei and Andrei Kostistsyn ,Montreal's 1st overall


I can dream can't I?
Yeah something like that...not sure how willing St.Louis is to move Bcakes and/or Berglund, they may do it for less or those 2 could be untoucheable. We may be surprised how much we get for just one of our goalies.

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06-14-2010, 01:54 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
All I can say is that "meh shots" can (and do) go in as well, so stopping them on the way to wins doesn't reduce the importance of the goaltender.

I mean, to look at it another way, many teams pull their goalie in favour of putting their 6 best players on the ice in order to score. Now, it quite often works, but overall would you say teams score or allow more goals with the goalie pulled? That's not a "be all, end all" point in and of itself, but it goes to show that one extra player, no matter how good, usually doesn't affect the outcome of a game as much as the goalie.
Your just acting stupid now. Again go read what Earl wrote and what he implied by his post, it's quite obvious, then read the responses to it. you just picking at words at not the actual response to his post.

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Old
06-14-2010, 02:11 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Your just acting stupid now. Again go read what Earl wrote and what he implied by his post, it's quite obvious, then read the responses to it. you just picking at words at not the actual response to his post.
That was not a reply to your post, nor earl's, so what are you getting at? I'll continue to leave tantalizing tales of what was/wasn't implied to you and others. But suffice to say, I don't disagree with the opinion that the goaltender is the most important position on the ice, nor do I disagree with the opinion that sometimes a focused competitor who gets results deserves a bit of priority over someone else whose (supposedly higher) talent and potential has yet to garnered similar results.

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Old
06-14-2010, 02:14 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
That was not a reply to your post, nor earl's, so what are you getting at? I'll continue to leave tantalizing tales of what was/wasn't implied to you and others. But suffice to say, I don't disagree with the opinion that the goaltender is the most important position on the ice, nor do I disagree with the opinion that sometimes a focused competitor who gets results deserves a bit of priority over someone else whose (supposedly higher) talent and potential has yet to garnered similar results.
No but the whole context of your previous post followed from your original response of my post, the post which was reffering to Earl's.

Again, stop playing stupid. Yes the goalie is probably the most important position, but that doesn't mean you need an elite goalie because a better built team can compensate for an average goalie as was seen this year with two teams.

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06-14-2010, 02:43 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Both Halak and Price are worth more than Malone even if the salaries were equivalent (which they're not). Although it might please those who want change for the sake of change, that proposal/rumor is so shortsighted that it should revolt any serious Habs fan.
Exactly, and Halak/Price for Malone is never gonna happen, nor should it.

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06-14-2010, 02:46 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
No but the whole context of your previous post followed from your original response of my post, the post which was reffering to Earl's.

Again, stop playing stupid. Yes the goalie is probably the most important position, but that doesn't mean you need an elite goalie because a better built team can compensate for an average goalie as was seen this year with two teams.
No, really, it didn't. Your context sniffer is really leading you astray today. "meh shots" were mentioned, "meh shots" were discussed. All I've commented on with you is the importance of the goaltending position, and the two of you introducing this notion of 1st vs 2nd tier goaltending that wasn't anywhere in earl's original post. Obviously I don't value the exercise of making that kind of distinction over simply judging a player by what he has done.

The only thing left in earl's post, is his comment on asset management (re: the notions of "value optimization" vs decisions that may actually best serve the team) which he adequately and promptly addressed so I've chosen not to harp on it. I don't know where you're finding all of these underlying themes and sinister plots in any of that.

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06-14-2010, 02:49 PM
  #192
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advantage to Ohashi


just kidding

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06-14-2010, 03:06 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by jason allison'fans View Post
advantage to Ohashi


just kidding
I second that. I read earls post and thought it was a well thought out statement. I think some posters opinion of him being a known Halak fan, over Price, make them feel the need to attack.

I don't know how else you're suppose to interpret. "Philly and Chicago sure struggled with their second tier goalies" oh wait.

Pretty ridiculous reply to earls post. We all seen what happened in the playoffs, Niemmi isn't a house hold name, but he still played great at times, which is required to win the cup.

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06-14-2010, 03:10 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
All I can say is that "meh shots" can (and do) go in as well, so stopping them on the way to wins doesn't reduce the importance of the goaltender.

I mean, to look at it another way, many teams pull their goalie in favour of putting their 6 best players on the ice in order to score. Now, it quite often works, but overall would you say teams score or allow more goals with the goalie pulled? That's not a "be all, end all" point in and of itself, but it goes to show that one extra player, no matter how good, usually doesn't affect the outcome of a game as much as the goalie.
A goalie's job is to stand in front of the net. 6 players, they're not going to have one of them at their net just in case. All 6 will be in the attacking zone to get that tying goal. 6 best players vs 5 + a goalie isn't the same thing.

Chris Osgood is a pretty crappy goalie and did well. Leighton certainly owned us and he was a number 3 his entire career. Antti Niemi is at least a backup towards a 1b goalie. Ultimately, Chicago won because Niemi is better than Leighton. The two teams were very comparable and it came down to which goalie made a save and that goalie was Niemi, ergo the Blackhawks won. Had Philly had a better goalie than Niemi, no doubt in my mind the Flyers would have won.

Though, I'm starting to think you and I are heading to the same place, just on different roads.

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06-14-2010, 03:27 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
you all will be sorely sorely disappointed, and probably upset when either 1 of 2 things happens:

A)They keep both goalies

B) they dont get what habs fans will deem "true value" for their prized goalies. Please, please look up recent trades for goalies. Its nothing short of underwhelming. Even the most high profile goalie trade in recent memory (Luongo) wielded nothing substanial for the Panthers.

Im just saying, these proposals and some posters mentatlity is that either goalie will yield a return that will turn around the franchise, and its just not going to happen.

And IF, and its a big IF IMO, a goalie is traded, everyone will be pissed and calling for gauthier`s head.
Panthers got todd bertuzzi, who at the time, was considered to be a better power forward than jerome iginla.

Quote:
Vancouver Canucks traded Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan Allen and Alex Auld to the Florida Panthers for Roberto Luongo, Lukas Krajicek and a 6th round selection in 2006.
Todd bertuzzi never regained his form, not florida's fault Todd hurt his back and went down significantly.

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06-14-2010, 04:03 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Panthers got todd bertuzzi, who at the time, was considered to be a better power forward than jerome iginla.
Bertuzzi was already on the downswing at the time. The trade was universally panned at the time it arrived.

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06-15-2010, 07:51 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Imagine Price under Boucher! :S
I'd rather not. I'm eating breakfast.

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06-15-2010, 07:35 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I second that. I read earls post and thought it was a well thought out statement. I think some posters opinion of him being a known Halak fan, over Price, make them feel the need to attack.

I don't know how else you're suppose to interpret. "Philly and Chicago sure struggled with their second tier goalies" oh wait.

Pretty ridiculous reply to earls post. We all seen what happened in the playoffs, Niemmi isn't a house hold name, but he still played great at times, which is required to win the cup
.
While your statement is true, I think if Philly has Halak in nets over Leighton they win the cup and had Chicago had Halak over Niemi Chicago would have had a easier time beating Philly!

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06-15-2010, 09:06 PM
  #199
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Bertuzzi was already on the downswing at the time. The trade was universally panned at the time it arrived.
what he said

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06-15-2010, 09:51 PM
  #200
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