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Alfredsson vs. Sittler

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06-14-2010, 06:05 PM
  #1
jkrx
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Alfredsson vs. Sittler

Daniel Alfredsson

Captain of the Senators. First (and only so far) Senator to win the Calder. No cup (though he still could win one).

1002 375 616 991 155 431

vs.

Darryl Sittler

Captain of the Maple Leafs, first leaf to score 100 points in a season. No cup.

1096 484 637 1121 53 948




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06-14-2010, 06:54 PM
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timekeep
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Sittler, only had Lanny vs. Alfie that had Heatley and Spezza and Hossa and Yashin and Havlat.

Sittler was always the leading scorer on the leafs, other than his first couple of years, but Alfie has the Calder on him.

Not bad, but I go with Sittler.

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06-14-2010, 07:09 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Borje Salming

Quote:
Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
Sittler, only had Lanny vs. Alfie that had Heatley and Spezza and Hossa and Yashin and Havlat.

Sittler was always the leading scorer on the leafs, other than his first couple of years, but Alfie has the Calder on him.

Not bad, but I go with Sittler.
Sittler also had a QB on defense - Borje Salming. Still he was a better player.

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06-14-2010, 07:10 PM
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seventieslord
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Interesting one.

The first instinct should be to take Sittler, the much-revered all-time great, and HHOFer. However, it is rather close. Alfie has quietly put together a rather solid career, to the point where if you stop and analyze it now, you realize that along the way he has surpassed the all-time greatness of a lot of players.

Sittler, one must admit, is among the lesser HHFO inductees. You don't hear him mentioned as a guy who cheapens the hall (like Federko, for example) but he's probably a titch below guys like Hawerchuk and Savard.

Alfredsson on the other hand, is a probable HHOFer, though not everyone agrees on that. If he did get in, he would be one of the weaker RWs to get in, but I don't foresee riots either. Much like, say, Joe Mullen or Lanny McDonald.

Alfie is a unique RW offensively, with a G/A ratio (1.6:1) much more geared towards assists than most star RWs. Sittler, on the other hand, was a unique center with a real knack for scoring goals in relation to his assist potential (1.3:1)

There is much to be said about these players, but I'll say this much to begin: Both players have about the same career PPG average of ~1.0, yet one played in the 70s and 80s and the other's career began as the dead puck era began.

To me, it looks like Alfie, and as a Leafs fan it pains me to say that. But I am not voting until I've read what some others have to say.

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06-14-2010, 08:20 PM
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It's very close.

Points finishes:
Sittler: 3, 8, 8, 9, 9
Alfredsson: 4, 7, 8, 9

Goals:
Sittler: 6, 8, 9
Alfredsson: 8

Assists:
Sittler: 2, 8
Alfredsson: 9, 9, 9

From their top 10 finishes, it's clear that Sittler has a small but clear edge in offense. Does Alfredsson's better defensive game close the gap?

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06-14-2010, 08:23 PM
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Andre Benoit Bawls
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timekeep View Post
Sittler, only had Lanny vs. Alfie that had Heatley and Spezza and Hossa and Yashin and Havlat.

Sittler was always the leading scorer on the leafs, other than his first couple of years, but Alfie has the Calder on him.

Not bad, but I go with Sittler.
Alfie might have played a combined 50 shifts with Havlat and Hossa. Alfie has had a Hart Worthy Season... 4th in PPG in 07-08 behind Crosby, Ovie, and Malkin but a slim margin, while being head and shoulders above any of them defensively

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06-14-2010, 08:31 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The OttoMan View Post
Alfie might have played a combined 50 shifts with Havlat and Hossa. Alfie has had a Hart Worthy Season... 4th in PPG in 07-08 behind Crosby, Ovie, and Malkin but a slim margin, while being head and shoulders above any of them defensively
Sittler has a much better Hart record.

Hart records:

Sittler: 3, 8, 9, 9, 9, 13

Alfredsson: 5, 16, 16, 17

The only season when Alfredsson was a significant factor in the Hart race was 2005-06, when Thornton won.

In 07-08, Alfredsson was 16th in Hart voting with three 5th place finishes. Ovechkin was 1st with 128 1st place finishes.

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06-14-2010, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The OttoMan View Post
Alfie might have played a combined 50 shifts with Havlat and Hossa. Alfie has had a Hart Worthy Season... 4th in PPG in 07-08 behind Crosby, Ovie, and Malkin but a slim margin, while being head and shoulders above any of them defensively
Alfredsson might have been the favorite for the Hart through the first 50 games of 07-08, before he was injured. Especially after his seven point game against the Lightning, he was being talked up as a contender for the Hart.

But he got injured, wasn't as good after returning, and he didn't figure in the Hart voting in that season. In fact, Alfredsson has never played 80 games in a season. If not for his assorted injuries his Hart voting record would be better.

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06-14-2010, 09:00 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Alfredsson might have been the favorite for the Hart through the first 50 games of 07-08, before he was injured. Especially after his seven point game against the Lightning, he was being talked up as a contender for the Hart.
Oh right, I remember that year now. Alfredsson definitely was one of the favorites before getting injured. The Capitals were way out of the playoffs before the coaching change and the miracle run that Ovechkin led them on at the end of the year.

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06-14-2010, 09:47 PM
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Kyle McMahon
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With the Hart voting, keep in mind that Sittler probably had an easier time standing out on his mediocre Leafs whereas Alfredsson usually had at least a couple other players close to his caliber along side him. There was no doubt that Sittler was the Leafs best forward during many of his years there. Alfredsson had Yashin, Hossa, Spezza, and Heatley at various times to split the voting or make him appear less crucial to Ottawa's success.

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06-15-2010, 08:03 AM
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This was a nightmare for me too.. thats the reason I took it to the forums... these two are hard to compare or rather rank. I favor Alfredsson slightly because of his defensive game but then again that could just be a product of the dead puck era. Sittler was amazing for the leafs but so is Alfie.

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06-15-2010, 01:23 PM
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overpass
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Alfredsson's linemates are often brought up as a cause of his success. I was curious to see the exact numbers of who he played with, so I went to the Hockey Summary Project to see who he most often participated on goals with.

At even strength, the forwards he most often participated in goals with (or most frequent linemates):
RkPlayerGPIWA
1 Jason Spezza 78
2 Dany Heatley 69
3 Todd White 57
4 Alexei Yashin 53
5 Shawn McEachern 50
6 Mike Fisher 41
7 Magnus Arvedson 32
8 Vaclav Prospal 27
9 Radek Bonk 20
10 Randy Cunneyworth 17
11 Peter Schaefer 17
12 Bryan Smolinski 16
13 Rob Zamuner 13
14 Shaun Van Allen 13
GPIWA=Goals Participated in with Alfredsson

Spezza, Heatley, and Yashin are a strong set of linemates. But beyond those three, Alfredsson's linemates were nothing special.

On the power play, the teammates he most frequently participated in goals with:
RkPlayerGPIWA
1 Jason Spezza 87
2 Wade Redden 76
3 Alexei Yashin 51
4 Dany Heatley 43
5 Marian Hossa 34
6 Radek Bonk 34
7 Shawn McEachern 27
8 Steve Duchesne 22
9 Martin Havlat 22
10 Zdeno Chara 18
11 Todd White 18
12 Mike Fisher 16
13 Filip Kuba 16
14 Alexandre Daigle 13
15 Vaclav Prospal 11
16 Chris Phillips 11
17 Bryan Smolinski 10

There's a bit more talent here, as the names of fellow right wingers Hossa and Havlat show up.

I actually didn't think that Spezza and Heatley would rank that high, but Alfredsson did have his highest scoring seasons with them. Also, Alfie rarely kept the same linemates for long before the lockout, with Todd White as his most regular linemate.

I don't have anything similar to add for Sittler, I'm not interested enough to take the time to run the numbers.

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06-15-2010, 01:50 PM
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Overall its really close. The edge goes to Alfredsson when taking into consideration eras, and defense. Their finishes in points are similar, but would favour Alfredsson if he was less injured. Also same story for the Hart voting, and the fact that as someone mentioned throughout lots of Alfredsson's career he's had anywhere from 1-4 linemates who were arguably as good if not better than him.

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06-15-2010, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
This was a nightmare for me too.. thats the reason I took it to the forums... these two are hard to compare or rather rank. I favor Alfredsson slightly because of his defensive game but then again that could just be a product of the dead puck era. Sittler was amazing for the leafs but so is Alfie.
I agree Alfie has the defensive edge but I wouldn't just say because of the era, either. Alfie was better relative to his era. Among star forwards of his generation, he'd be considered one of the very best defensively. Sittler you might call average to above average.

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06-15-2010, 02:53 PM
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The first instinct should be to take Sittler, the much-revered all-time great, and HHOFer. However, it is rather close. Alfie has quietly put together a rather solid career, to the point where if you stop and analyze it now, you realize that along the way he has surpassed the all-time greatness of a lot of players.
That is the instinct for sure. Most of us would take Sittler without even thinking but we all forget just how good of a career the guy has had so far. When you step back, you realize that this guy was 4th in points in the 2000's. That's 4th in points in a decade. Not bad. And ahead of him are Thornton, Jagr and Iginla, three sure bets for the HHOF. Now the knock is that just slightly behind him is Hossa. Say what you want, but not everyone thinks Hossa is a potential HHOFer yet. That being said Alfie has had a very impressive career.

Quote:
Sittler, one must admit, is among the lesser HHFO inductees. You don't hear him mentioned as a guy who cheapens the hall (like Federko, for example) but he's probably a titch below guys like Hawerchuk and Savard.
Yeah he's in the lower category of HHOFers for sure. That being said almost all of us still prefer him in there. I don't think he cheapens the HHOF at all.

Quote:
Alfredsson on the other hand, is a probable HHOFer, though not everyone agrees on that. If he did get in, he would be one of the weaker RWs to get in, but I don't foresee riots either. Much like, say, Joe Mullen or Lanny McDonald.
Agreed. It'll be a long hard look at him when his career is over, and even the most adamant Leaf fan has got to at least CONSIDER him if they look at it objectively.

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06-15-2010, 08:17 PM
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People who bring up linemates should realise by now that he won calder basically without Yashin or a heatley by his side. In fact

1 Daniel Alfredsson RW 5-11 200 23 82 26 35 61 -18 28
2 Alexei Yashin C 6-3 225 22 46 15 24 39 -15 28
3 Randy Cunneyworth LW 6-0 198 34 81 17 19 36 -31 130
4 Steve Duchesne D 5-11 195 30 62 12 24 36 -23 42
5 Radek Bonk C 6-2 210 20 76 16 19 35 -5 36

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06-15-2010, 09:11 PM
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[QUOTE=Big Phil;26301081]
Quote:

That is the instinct for sure. Most of us would take Sittler without even thinking but we all forget just how good of a career the guy has had so far. When you step back, you realize that this guy was 4th in points in the 2000's. That's 4th in points in a decade. Not bad. And ahead of him are Thornton, Jagr and Iginla, three sure bets for the HHOF. Now the knock is that just slightly behind him is Hossa. Say what you want, but not everyone thinks Hossa is a potential HHOFer yet. That being said Alfie has had a very impressive career.



Yeah he's in the lower category of HHOFers for sure. That being said almost all of us still prefer him in there. I don't think he cheapens the HHOF at all.



Agreed. It'll be a long hard look at him when his career is over, and even the most adamant Leaf fan has got to at least CONSIDER him if they look at it objectively.
And yet, if you asked around about Alfredsson's best single "skill" or "attribute", they'd very likely mention two-way play/defense. That alone is tempting me to vote Alfie, but I'm well aware of my anti-Leaf bias; especially against ones whose image seems (to me) to be inflated (a bit) as much by legend power (he IS in the HOF, after all, and he DID have a 10 point game, and he DID retire as the Leaf's all-time goals/points leader, etc.) and nostalgia as what they actually did on the ice relative to their peers. So, I'm gonna hold off voting and keep reading for a bit. Anticipating more good stuff to come.

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06-16-2010, 08:46 AM
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Close but I went with Sittler

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06-16-2010, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
People who bring up linemates should realise by now that he won calder basically without Yashin or a heatley by his side. In fact

1 Daniel Alfredsson RW 5-11 200 23 82 26 35 61 -18 28
2 Alexei Yashin C 6-3 225 22 46 15 24 39 -15 28
3 Randy Cunneyworth LW 6-0 198 34 81 17 19 36 -31 130
4 Steve Duchesne D 5-11 195 30 62 12 24 36 -23 42
5 Radek Bonk C 6-2 210 20 76 16 19 35 -5 36
Yes, but the Calder is fairly insignificant when looking at a players whole career. Plus 1995-96 wasn't a very good year for rookies.

Ottawa did improve a lot over the second half of that season, and they only had Yashin for the second half. Though the team getting better was more due to Pierre Gauthier coming in and finally correcting the mistakes of the first four years.

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06-16-2010, 09:58 AM
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tough one, but alfie's character breaks it.

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06-16-2010, 10:02 AM
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Very Misleading

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I agree Alfie has the defensive edge but I wouldn't just say because of the era, either. Alfie was better relative to his era. Among star forwards of his generation, he'd be considered one of the very best defensively. Sittler you might call average to above average.
Relative to his era being the operative phrase. As a RW Daniel Alfredsson would be responsible defensively for the opposing LW.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

If we look at the LWers that are Alfredsson's contemporaries we see one - Brendan Shanahan that is a definite HHOF. The rest of the list contains ifs and buts plus the top five all played out west so Alfredsson rarely played against them.

On the other hand Darryl Sittler played center, after serving a brief apprenticeship behind Keon and Ullman in Toronto he played for two coaches Kelly and Neilson who stressed defense. Sittler was excellent defensively playing for weak or pedestrian Maple Leaf teams while facing HHOF caliber centers - Lemaire, Ratelle, Trottier, Perreault, Clarke, Esposito,Mikita, plus defensive specialists like Jarvis, Luce. Furthermore post Keon / Ullman with the Leafs Sittler did not have a strong supporting cast at center.

Also in the 1976 Canada Cup his defense was strong enough to allow him to play LW, covering some of the elite international RWers.

Sittler was definitely the superior defensive forward.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 06-16-2010 at 10:04 AM. Reason: typo
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06-16-2010, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Relative to his era being the operative phrase. As a RW Daniel Alfredsson would be responsible defensively for the opposing LW.
In the first moments of transition, and off the odd rush, sure. But in periods of cycling and sustained pressure, the winger is usually asked to cover the point and whichever opposing forward comes up their half-board (which is the line's centre as often as the winger on that side), or whoever sneaks into the back door slot.

But let's get down to it, really. I've seen Hart finishes, point finishes, etc. Who has the Selke finishes for these two guys while we're talking defense (or is it unfair since the Selke was introduced part-way through Sittler's career)?


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06-16-2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
In the first moments of transition, and off the odd rush, sure. But in periods of cycling and sustained pressure, the winger is usually asked to cover the point and whichever opposing forward comes up their half-board (which is the line's centre as often as the winger on that side), or whoever sneaks into the back door slot.

But let's get down to it, really. I've seen Hart finishes, point finishes, etc. Who has the Selke finishes for these two guys while we're talking defense (or is it unfair since the Selke was introduced part-way through Sittler's career)?
Sittler never received selke votes, in any case. Alfredsson has always received Selke votes. His adjusted +/- (impact on team goal differential when he's off the ice) was also much better than Sittler's.

C1958's logic could be used to prove that anyone who played in a smaller league was better defensively, and that any center is better defensively than any winger.

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06-16-2010, 11:32 AM
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Nothing New

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
In the first moments of transition, and off the odd rush, sure. But in periods of cycling and sustained pressure, the winger is usually asked to cover the point and whichever opposing forward comes up their half-board (which is the line's centre as often as the winger on that side), or whoever sneaks into the back door slot.

But let's get down to it, really. I've seen Hart finishes, point finishes, etc. Who has the Selke finishes for these two guys while we're talking defense (or is it unfair since the Selke was introduced part-way through Sittler's career)?
Nothing new here. Wingers have always had zone responsibilities and have always switched coverage responsibilities with centers, other wingers and defensemen.

Still have to play the opposing winger in the other zones and coming back.

Make it simple. How would you rate Marian Hossa's performance defensively against the Flyers?

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06-16-2010, 11:48 AM
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Yes, but the Calder is fairly insignificant when looking at a players whole career. Plus 1995-96 wasn't a very good year for rookies.

Ottawa did improve a lot over the second half of that season, and they only had Yashin for the second half. Though the team getting better was more due to Pierre Gauthier coming in and finally correcting the mistakes of the first four years.
Just because one season isnt good for rookies does it really discredit Alfies Calder? He beat out Daze who was strong goal scorer for the hawks for a while and Jovanovski who had a superb season with the Panthers. Also I wouldnt call a year with rookies like Koivu, McCabe, Bertuzzi, Satan, Lehtinen, Sykora, Ragnarsson, O'Neil, Dvorak, Sundström, McLaren and Witt for a bad rookie season.

Might also add that Alfredsson also played in the All-star game in his first season so it's not like he won the Calder because he was playing amongst weaker rookies but because he was doing well amongst other players.

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