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Howe vs Salming

View Poll Results: Who was better all time?
Mark Howe 6 20.00%
Börje Salming 24 80.00%
Too close to call 0 0%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-14-2010, 07:19 PM
  #1
matnor
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Howe vs Salming

Two solid defencemen in the 70s/80s that never won the Norris trophy. One is in the Hall of Fame the other is generally considered to be the one of the best outside the Hall. Who was the best player all time out of the two (take Howe's career in the WHA into account) and why?




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06-14-2010, 07:39 PM
  #2
Canadiens1958
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Mark Howe

Not sure about the WHA career for Mark Howe since that would focus on his career as a forward and while his WHA numbers and brief NHL numbers as a forward are nice they do not point to the HHOF.

Watching the recent SC finals brought back memories of Mark Howe and the 1980's Flyers. If Howe had the physicality of a Chris Pronger he would be a HHOFer without question. On the other hand a lot of the skills that Mark Howe brought were missing on the Flyer defense in 2010. In the context of 1980's are these skills sufficient to get him into the HHOF - excellent defensive positional play, transition game, puck movement, offensive support. In retrospect I would say definitely.

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Old
06-14-2010, 08:41 PM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
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I'll leave the statistical analysis for someone else, but the way I see it is the following:

They were both very good skaters who were excellent at controlling the pace of the game at even strength, mainly via the transition game. Both provided very good but not elite offensive support.

Salming was better in his own zone. That isn't to say Howe was bad, just that Salming was better. Salming was finishing behind only Robinson and Savard for "best defensive defenseman" in coach's polls in the late 70s. He was also known for his physical play and outright dirtiness, qualities that Mark Howe lacked.

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06-14-2010, 09:56 PM
  #4
overpass
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I've got some adjusted statistics worked up for both Howe and Salming, so I'll post them.

Glossary of statistics
$F/G: Even strength goals for that the player was on the ice for per game, adjusted to a scoring level of 200 ESG per team season
$A/G: Even strength goals against that the player was on the ice for per game, adjusted to a scoring level of 200 ESG per team season
R-ON: GF/GA ratio at even strength while the player was on the ice. Compare this to R-OFF for an estimate of the player's impact at even strength
R-OFF: GF/GA ratio at even strength while the player was off the ice
AdjEV+/-: Adjusted even-strength plus-minus. Based on comparing R-ON and R-OFF
$ESP/G: Even strength points per game, adjusted to a scoring level of 200 ESG per team season
PP%: Percentage of team's power play goals for that the player was on the ice for. Measures the size of the player's role in his team's power play
SH%: Percentage of team's power play goals against that the player was on the ice for. Measures the size of the player's role in his team's penalty kill
TeamPP+: Average strength of the team power plays on which the player played. Average is 1, higher is better. A TeamPP+ of 1.10=10% above average.
TeamPK+:Average strength of the team penalty kills on which the player played. Average is 1, lower is better. A TeamPK+ of 1.10=10% below average.
$PPP/G: Power play points per game, adjusted to a scoring level of 70 PPG per team season
$SHP/G: Shorthanded points per game, adjusted to a scoring level of 10 SHG per team season


Mark Howe
(does not include his 6 years as a forward in the WHA)
Player Year Seasons $F/G $A/G R-ON R-OFF AdjEV+/- /Season $ESP/G
Mark Howe 80-82 2.7 1.15 1.06 1.08 0.73 67 25 0.52
Mark Howe 83-91 6.9 1.17 0.68 1.73 1.06 261 38 0.43
Mark Howe 92-95 2.1 0.89 0.60 1.50 1.11 43 20 0.28
Mark Howe Career 11.7 1.11 0.75 1.49 0.96 371 32 0.43

Player Year Seasons PP% SH% TmPP+ TmPK+ $PPP/G $SHP/G
Mark Howe 80-82 2.7 75% 43% 0.90 1.15 0.29 0.05
Mark Howe 83-91 6.9 59% 46% 1.02 0.79 0.24 0.06
Mark Howe 92-95 2.1 36% 25% 1.10 0.87 0.22 0.01
Mark Howe Career 11.7 58% 41% 0.99 0.87 0.25 0.05

Borje Salming
Player Year Seasons $F/G $A/G R-ON R-OFF AdjEV+/- /Season $ESP/G
Borje Salming 74-75 1.7 1.15 0.85 1.35 0.97 45 26 0.35
Borje Salming 76-82 6.6 1.31 1.03 1.27 0.83 227 34 0.50
Borje Salming 83-86 3.1 0.93 1.18 0.79 0.74 -11 -4 0.28
Borje Salming 87-90 2.9 1.10 0.93 1.19 0.79 80 27 0.24
Borje Salming Career 14.4 1.17 1.02 1.14 0.82 340 24 0.38

Player Year Seasons PP% SH% TmPP+ TmPK+ $PPP/G $SHP/G
Borje Salming 74-75 1.7 46% 57% 0.91 1.12 0.23 0.02
Borje Salming 76-82 6.6 81% 58% 1.07 1.04 0.38 0.02
Borje Salming 83-86 3.1 58% 57% 0.93 1.15 0.23 0.02
Borje Salming 87-90 2.9 32% 46% 0.73 1.12 0.09 0.01
Borje Salming Career 14.4 62% 55% 0.98 1.08 0.27 0.02

As TheDevilMadeMe said, Salming and Howe were both at their best at even strength. Their plus-minus results compared to teammates are both excellent, among the best since 1968 when plus-minus has been recorded.

Comparing their primes specifically (75-76 to 81-82 for Salming, 82-83 to 90-91 for Howe) both have similar adjusted plus-minus numbers. Howe's are slightly better, but he may have benefited from having Brad McCrimmon as a partner for three seasons, including his best season in 85-86. Salming's excellent adjusted numbers came from posting very good numbers compared to bad teammates (1.27 R-ON compared to 0.83 R-OFF), and Howe's from posting incredible numbers compared to good teammates (1.73 R-ON compared to 1.06 R-OFF). Salming was on the ice for more goals both for and against than Howe; possibly as a result of getting more playing time on weaker teams with less depth.

Salming appears to have an edge on special teams. During his prime, he played most of the power play (PP% of 81%), like other top offensive defencemen of the time. Howe did not (PP% of 59%). I don't know why Howe didn't play more on the power play. Possibly it was because he didn't have a good slap shot. While Salming played a lot on the power play, his teams met with little success, and Howe's teams were stronger there. While I wouldn't say that Salming or Howe was responsible for that, I would say that it was probably easier to get more power play playing time on Salming's Leafs. Salming, like Howe, prefered the wrist shot to the slap shot, and was more of a playmaker than a shooter on the power play. It's possible that their numbers differ because of their situations as much as their talents.

Salming was probably the better penalty killer. He was an excellent shot blocker, and was larger than Howe and more physical. Howe's teams spread out the penalty killing duties pretty evenly among defencemen - with Brad Marsh playing about as much as Brad McCrimmon - but were still an excellent penalty killing team. How much credit Howe deserves for this I don't know, but he certainly had tougher competition for playing time than Salming. Howe also had the versatility to kill penalties as a forward, which he did at times as a Flyer.

I should add that these are regular season stats only that I've posted. Howe also had some terrific playoff runs on his resume, and was +54 in 95 playoff games since the NHL started tracking playoff plus-minus in 1984. Salming never really had the team to have much of a playoff run.

I was too young to see Howe's career, and I've only seen a few games with him. For those who saw him, would Duncan Keith be a good comparable? Keith isn't big, but he's excellent defensively because his great skating and smarts allows him to close on the puck quickly and break plays up all over the ice, and he turns the puck the other way in a hurry. That type of defensive excellence comes into play more at even strength than while shorthanded. From what I've heard, seen, and read, Howe's game was similar.

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06-14-2010, 10:20 PM
  #5
Canadiens1958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post

I was too young to see Howe's career, and I've only seen a few games with him. For those who saw him, would Duncan Keith be a good comparable? Keith isn't big, but he's excellent defensively because his great skating and smarts allows him to close on the puck quickly and break plays up all over the ice, and he turns the puck the other way in a hurry. That type of defensive excellence comes into play more at even strength than while shorthanded. From what I've heard, seen, and read, Howe's game was similar.

Keith would not be a good comparable.Duncan Keith plays like a natural defenseman.Hard pressed to find a Mark Howe comparable amongst present or past d-men.

Readers should appreciate that Mark Howe was a converted forward, who did not have the natural instincts or sense of defensive geometry that the elite defensemen tend to have. Even though he filled the role he was a shade below #1 defenseman talent.

A young Larry Robinson, also a converted forward but in junior, showed some of the same tendencies early in his career. Some of Robinson's big hits were forward type hits as opposed to defenseman hits.

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06-14-2010, 11:58 PM
  #6
greatgazoo
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Howe was a 1st team NHL all-star 3 times...Salming just once.

You know where my vote is going on this one.

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06-15-2010, 12:23 AM
  #7
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatgazoo View Post
Howe was a 1st team NHL all-star 3 times...Salming just once.

You know where my vote is going on this one.
I don't understand this logic. Finishing Top 2 in the league means more than finishing Top 4 (6-3 Salming) or 1st (neither won the Norris)?

Here are their Norris records:

Salming's Top 5 finishes in Norris voting: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
Howe's Top 5 finishes in Norris voting: 2, 2, 2, 5

Plus, look at competition. Here is who Salming was losing those first team ASs to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post


In his second NHL season, Börje started being seen as one of the top four defensemen in the league. Even though his peak didn't last over the entirety of Salming's stay in the NHL, his tenure lasted over 1100 games.

Season 1st AST 1st AST 2nd AST 2nd AST Norris Trophy
1973-74 Bobby Orr Brad Park Barry Ashbee Bill White Bobby Orr
1974-75 Bobby Orr Denis Potvin Guy Lapointe Börje Salming Bobby Orr
1975-76 Brad Park Denis Potvin Guy Lapointe Börje Salming Denis Potvin
1976-77 Larry Robinson Börje Salming Guy Lapointe Denis Potvin Larry Robinson
1977-78 Brad Park Denis Potvin Larry Robinson Börje Salming Denis Potvin
1978-79 Denis Potvin Larry Robinson Börje Salming Serge Savard Denis Potvin
1979-80 Raymond Bourque Larry Robinson Börje Salming Jim Schoenfeld Larry Robinson
Here is Howe during his prime by comparison:

Season 1st AST 1st AST 2nd AST 2nd AST Norris Trophy
1982-83 Mark Howe Rod Langway Paul Coffey Ray Bourque Rod Langway
1983-84 Rod Langway Ray Bourque Paul Coffey Denis Potvin Rod Langway
1984-85 Paul Coffey Ray Bourque Rod Langway Doug Wilson Paul Coffey
1985-86 Paul Coffey Mark Howe Larry Robinson Ray Bourque Paul Coffey
1986-87 Mark Howe Ray Bourque Larry Murphy Al MacInnis Ray Bourque

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06-15-2010, 07:10 AM
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Reds4Life
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No brainer for me. Salming any day.

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06-15-2010, 10:15 AM
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tony d
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Mark Howe

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06-15-2010, 10:33 AM
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I think very highly of Mark Howe, but I have no problem voting Salming here. So many levels of respect, from blazing the trails for Europeans, to the combination of longevity and productivity, to willingness to put his body on the line in any situation, etc. Simply one of those ideal, do anything and everything defenders.

One of my favourite little side stories from international play of yesteryear is when he apparently got a much louder ovation during the Sweden-Canada introductions than any Canadian player at the '76 Canada Cup, despite being "the enemy" that night. Shows you the immense respect and popularity he earned very quickly around the league.

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06-15-2010, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think very highly of Mark Howe, but I have no problem voting Salming here. So many levels of respect, from blazing the trails for Europeans, to the combination of longevity and productivity, to willingness to put his body on the line in any situation, etc. Simply one of those ideal, do anything and everything defenders.

One of my favourite little side stories from international play of yesteryear is when he apparently got a much louder ovation during the Sweden-Canada introductions than any Canadian player at the '76 Canada Cup, despite being "the enemy" that night. Shows you the immense respect and popularity he earned very quickly around the league.

agree, great great moment


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06-15-2010, 02:22 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think very highly of Mark Howe, but I have no problem voting Salming here. So many levels of respect, from blazing the trails for Europeans, to the combination of longevity and productivity, to willingness to put his body on the line in any situation, etc. Simply one of those ideal, do anything and everything defenders.

One of my favourite little side stories from international play of yesteryear is when he apparently got a much louder ovation during the Sweden-Canada introductions than any Canadian player at the '76 Canada Cup, despite being "the enemy" that night. Shows you the immense respect and popularity he earned very quickly around the league.
I've read that it's because the Canada Cup was in Toronto and Salming was the only Maple Leaf playing. Still, it goes to show how Toronto fans were so willing to adopt Salming as one of their own.

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06-15-2010, 02:28 PM
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Salming for sure. No offense to Howe, but Salming is/was a slam dunk decision to get into the HHOF for a reason. Some people will remember the Robinson vs. Salming comparisons in the 1970s. They really happened. Now I personally think Robinson was a bit better in that time frame and once the 1980s hit he was still very good while Salming started to go on the decline a bit. So on an all-time list Robinson wins out for sure, but if this is 1977 you'd probably think it was pretty close. That tells you something about Salming.

Howe on the other hand is probably the best defenseman not in the HHOF. He could easily be there and I'd like to know the reason why he isn't.

That being said he still isn't Salming, not quite.

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06-15-2010, 04:01 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Salming for sure. No offense to Howe, but Salming is/was a slam dunk decision to get into the HHOF for a reason. Some people will remember the Robinson vs. Salming comparisons in the 1970s. They really happened. Now I personally think Robinson was a bit better in that time frame and once the 1980s hit he was still very good while Salming started to go on the decline a bit. So on an all-time list Robinson wins out for sure, but if this is 1977 you'd probably think it was pretty close. That tells you something about Salming.

Howe on the other hand is probably the best defenseman not in the HHOF. He could easily be there and I'd like to know the reason why he isn't.

That being said he still isn't Salming, not quite.
Salming declined a bit, but I wouldn't say by much. And only offensively. Throughout the 1980s he was still outpacing his Toronto teammates in +/- by wide margins. It makes me wonder how good he might have looked on a strong team.

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06-15-2010, 04:19 PM
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Salming declined a bit, but I wouldn't say by much. And only offensively. Throughout the 1980s he was still outpacing his Toronto teammates in +/- by wide margins. It makes me wonder how good he might have looked on a strong team.
And time on ice, if I'm not mistaken. Love going back through those years to laugh at Gary Nylund, who must have been one of the biggest pylons of the early/mid 80s looking at those numbers. Great 3rd overall pick...

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06-15-2010, 04:54 PM
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And time on ice, if I'm not mistaken. Love going back through those years to laugh at Gary Nylund, who must have been one of the biggest pylons of the early/mid 80s looking at those numbers. Great 3rd overall pick...
Pretty good 1st round pick by Leaf standards though!

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06-15-2010, 05:47 PM
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Definitely Börje Salming!!! He is awesome!

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06-15-2010, 06:32 PM
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Gary Nylund

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And time on ice, if I'm not mistaken. Love going back through those years to laugh at Gary Nylund, who must have been one of the biggest pylons of the early/mid 80s looking at those numbers. Great 3rd overall pick...
Gary Nylund hurt his knee during the exhibition season following the draft and missed the start of the season, returned, played a few games then re-injured the knee. There was a sense that the Leafs medical people misdiagnosed, mishandled the injury.

Regardless his knee was never the same and eventually his career was shortened.

Interesting tidbit about his second career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Nylund

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06-15-2010, 07:15 PM
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I've always been a big fan of Salming.

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06-15-2010, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Keith would not be a good comparable.Duncan Keith plays like a natural defenseman.Hard pressed to find a Mark Howe comparable amongst present or past d-men.

Readers should appreciate that Mark Howe was a converted forward, who did not have the natural instincts or sense of defensive geometry that the elite defensemen tend to have. Even though he filled the role he was a shade below #1 defenseman talent.

A young Larry Robinson, also a converted forward but in junior, showed some of the same tendencies early in his career. Some of Robinson's big hits were forward type hits as opposed to defenseman hits.
I played against both Mark and Marty when they were the #1 and #2 Defencemen on the Detroit Jr Wings, we blazed through everyone at that tourney until we hit that Detroit team. They both ended up Marlies in Toronto where they terrorized the OHL with the leagues most feared PP.

They converted to forwards as a publicity stunt for the WHA but both kids were such great skaters that it actually worked out quite well for both, for awhile, of course having Gordie as the RW on the line didn't hurt.

Mark's coversion back to full time Defence was his decision and occured mid-way in his rookie WHA season, although he played the point on the Aeros PP from the get go

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06-15-2010, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Gary Nylund hurt his knee during the exhibition season following the draft and missed the start of the season, returned, played a few games then re-injured the knee. There was a sense that the Leafs medical people misdiagnosed, mishandled the injury.

Regardless his knee was never the same and eventually his career was shortened.

Interesting tidbit about his second career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Nylund
Hunh, interesting. Thanks for the link.

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Pretty good 1st round pick by Leaf standards though!
Ziiiing!

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06-15-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Keith would not be a good comparable.Duncan Keith plays like a natural defenseman.Hard pressed to find a Mark Howe comparable amongst present or past d-men.

Readers should appreciate that Mark Howe was a converted forward, who did not have the natural instincts or sense of defensive geometry that the elite defensemen tend to have. Even though he filled the role he was a shade below #1 defenseman talent.

A young Larry Robinson, also a converted forward but in junior, showed some of the same tendencies early in his career. Some of Robinson's big hits were forward type hits as opposed to defenseman hits.
As someone who can proudly say that their very first hockey jersey was a Howe 2, I have to say I think you are completely and totally off, mind you I imagine you were older than I was when Howe played.

The man literally got pissed at himself if he allowed a single scoring chance against in a game. He thought the game on defense and what I consider to be his very strengths are exactly what you have called his weaknesses here.

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06-15-2010, 07:52 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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I'm a little surprised by this poll.

I voted for Howe.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned that Mark Howe had a wrist shot comprable to his dad's. Hence the goal scoring difference between him and Salming. A career +400 rating (12th all-time) is not too bad either. His 28 short-handed goals is still the record for NHL dmen. As a pair, Howe and McCrimmon were one of the top 5 pairs I've ever seen in the NHL.

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06-15-2010, 08:06 PM
  #24
mja
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I'm a little surprised by this poll.

I voted for Howe.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned that Mark Howe had a wrist shot comprable to his dad's. Hence the goal scoring difference between him and Salming. A career +400 rating (12th all-time) is not too bad either. His 28 short-handed goals is still the record for NHL dmen. As a pair, Howe and McCrimmon were one of the top 5 pairs I've ever seen in the NHL.
It was a wonderful pair. And then Clarke and McCrimmon went ahead and ruined my childhood.

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