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Old
06-16-2010, 10:20 PM
  #76
John Wayne Gretzky
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Koivu us a UFA right now Ducks fans, you don't even know if he will be on the team next season, this along with Teemu and Niedermeyer. I am just reporting speculation I have heard from various sources. I would love to have Bobby Ryan playing on the wing with RIchards. As for the other trade I was throwing out a suggestion based on rumors and what the Kings are apparently in the market for. It said they were looking for a veteran scoring winger, last time I checked Gagne fits that description, and a young big Dman, Coburn is a 24 year old standing at 6'4. O'donell and Jones are UFAs hence them looking to pick up a Dman. Again I was making logical assumptions, and asking what others thought. I didn't hear a thing about Quick until yesterday when Therien was talking about the Flyers and Hexy being in talks about acquring him. I don't see why the Kings would move him other than having faith in Bernier.

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06-16-2010, 10:22 PM
  #77
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P.S I never asked for a first rounder, that was all Chris up there, I could see you guys maybe throwing us a 2nd or 3rd for the rights to Parent, who is only 22.

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06-16-2010, 10:24 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Emphasis on the "more"
Exactly.

I wouldn't trade either Gagne or Coburn for Quick, let alone both.

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06-16-2010, 10:33 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Exactly.

I wouldn't trade either Gagne or Coburn for Quick, let alone both.
You are truly a homer then. Gags has 1 year left at 5 mil, he is aging, he hasnt been healthy in god knows how long, and it would give us the cap space to pursue say Dan Hamhuis to replace Coburn. Its Coburns rights they are trading for, so it isn't that valuable, not to mention if you can honestly tell me he is not one of the sloppiest Dmen in the league you are a liar. He played 2 great games this year, games 2 and 3 of the cup finals, aside from that he has been a joke for 1 and a half season. I dont mind because we gave up nothing to get him, and I had hope for him because he looked good his first year with us, since then hes been just ok. We need a goalie, Quick put up great numbers and set the Kings franchise record for wins, not to mention he has 2 more years making almost nothing at all.

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06-16-2010, 10:35 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
You are truly a homer then. Gags has 1 year left at 5 mil, he is aging, he hasnt been healthy in god knows how long, and it would give us the cap space to pursue say Dan Hamhuis to replace Coburn. Its Coburns rights they are trading for, so it isn't that valuable, not to mention if you can honestly tell me he is not one of the sloppiest Dmen in the league you are a liar. He played 2 great games this year, games 2 and 3 of the cup finals, aside from that he has been a joke for 1 and a half season. I dont mind because we gave up nothing to get him, and I had hope for him because he looked good his first year with us, since then hes been just ok. We need a goalie, Quick put up great numbers and set the Kings franchise record for wins, not to mention he has 2 more years making almost nothing at all.
I don't agree with Chris here, but Gagne AND Coburn for Quick is mad overpayment no matter how much cap space it frees up.

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06-16-2010, 10:41 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I don't agree with Chris here, but Gagne AND Coburn for Quick is mad overpayment no matter how much cap space it frees up.
Coburn is too important to our future, and Gagne is worth too much; he's way too talented to ship off for an above-average goaltender we can get an older version of on the open market without shipping away assets we need.

So yeah, it has nothing to do with homerism. It just doesn't make sense at all.

If anything, the Los Angeles Kings fans harboring Quick as some Rask is shady as all hell.

I understand your situation with goaltending, so I have not once asked for either Quick or Bernier. It wouldn't make sense to ship either out for anything less than overpayment at the stage you're at.

That said, the Flyers are hardly the team that's going to overpay, let alone significantly overpay, for one of your above-average goalie (Quick) or your goaltending prospect however amount of talent he has (Bernier).

Actually mercury, I find it kind of incredible you're siding with LA on this one. The proposal was really bad.

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06-16-2010, 11:01 PM
  #82
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The thing is in the salary cap era Gagne is not of high value given his injury history, his salary and he turned 30 this year. Coburn is of vaule because of his age and size, and the speed for his size, but he is an RFA which lessens his value. Quick is a young goalie with a 2.5 GAA, a 60-42-9 record, 8 shutouts and 911 svp over the last 2 years, on a team who missed the playoffs then wasnt expected to even make it. We need a goalie, and id prefer it to be a young one. Hear me out here, hypothetically speaking guys. If these 2 deals were made and we resign Ryan for say 5mil per look at this lineup.

Leino - Briere - Hartnell
Ryan - Richards -
JVR - Giroux -
Lappy - Betts -

Pronger - Carle
Timonen -
Bartulis -

Quick - Boucher

Left with 12 million to fill in the gaps with the likes of Hamhuis, Martin, Mitchell and Volchenkov out there to sign (id personally want Hamhuis to pair up with Kimmo again) I say we resign Krajicek, because in my opinion he played great for us, at a low price say 1mil. We resign Carcillo or Asham, its already been said they wont do both, but I would personally go with Carcillo because of Ashams age, and throw him on the 4th line. Now we need 2 more forwards. Frolov, Whitney, Karyia, Ponikarovsky, Partineau, Jokinen, Halpern, Lombardi and Morrison are available. Idk, I think it makes sense, just my opinion. We could have the 3 most terrifying lines in the NHL.

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Old
06-16-2010, 11:03 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Koivu us a UFA right now Ducks fans, you don't even know if he will be on the team next season, this along with Teemu and Niedermeyer. I am just reporting speculation I have heard from various sources. I would love to have Bobby Ryan playing on the wing with RIchards. As for the other trade I was throwing out a suggestion based on rumors and what the Kings are apparently in the market for. It said they were looking for a veteran scoring winger, last time I checked Gagne fits that description, and a young big Dman, Coburn is a 24 year old standing at 6'4. O'donell and Jones are UFAs hence them looking to pick up a Dman. Again I was making logical assumptions, and asking what others thought. I didn't hear a thing about Quick until yesterday when Therien was talking about the Flyers and Hexy being in talks about acquring him. I don't see why the Kings would move him other than having faith in Bernier.
You're speculating and we are going off of what the players say. Now who do you trust more, something you made up or what players say?

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Old
06-16-2010, 11:05 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by karacter View Post
You're speculating and we are going off of what the players say. Now who do you trust more, something you made up or what players say?
Im referring to Chuck Gormley who writes for the Flyers and the Philadelphia Inquire who broke the Pronger deal a week before it happened and Chris Therien who is our radio announcer who spoke of it on the show yesterday afternoon.

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06-16-2010, 11:11 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
The thing is in the salary cap era Gagne is not of high value given his injury history, his salary and he turned 30 this year. Coburn is of vaule because of his age and size, and the speed for his size, but he is an RFA which lessens his value. Quick is a young goalie with a 2.5 GAA, a 60-42-9 record, 8 shutouts and 911 svp over the last 2 years, on a team who missed the playoffs then wasnt expected to even make it. We need a goalie, and id prefer it to be a young one. Hear me out here, hypothetically speaking guys. If these 2 deals were made and we resign Ryan for say 5mil per look at this lineup.

Leino - Briere - Hartnell
Ryan - Richards -
JVR - Giroux -
Lappy - Betts -

Pronger - Carle
Timonen -
Bartulis -

Quick - Boucher

Left with 12 million to fill in the gaps with the likes of Hamhuis, Martin, Mitchell and Volchenkov out there to sign (id personally want Hamhuis to pair up with Kimmo again) I say we resign Krajicek, because in my opinion he played great for us, at a low price say 1mil. We resign Carcillo or Asham, its already been said they wont do both, but I would personally go with Carcillo because of Ashams age, and throw him on the 4th line. Now we need 2 more forwards. Frolov, Whitney, Karyia, Ponikarovsky, Partineau, Jokinen, Halpern, Lombardi and Morrison are available. Idk, I think it makes sense, just my opinion. We could have the 3 most terrifying lines in the NHL.
Are you NWO in disguise? I've never seen such anti-homerism in my life. Be aware that anti-homerism is just as annoying and incorrect as homerism.

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Old
06-16-2010, 11:11 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Coburn is too important to our future, and Gagne is worth too much; he's way too talented to ship off for an above-average goaltender we can get an older version of on the open market without shipping away assets we need.

So yeah, it has nothing to do with homerism. It just doesn't make sense at all.

If anything, the Los Angeles Kings fans harboring Quick as some Rask is shady as all hell.

I understand your situation with goaltending, so I have not once asked for either Quick or Bernier. It wouldn't make sense to ship either out for anything less than overpayment at the stage you're at.

That said, the Flyers are hardly the team that's going to overpay, let alone significantly overpay, for one of your above-average goalie (Quick) or your goaltending prospect however amount of talent he has (Bernier).

Actually mercury, I find it kind of incredible you're siding with LA on this one. The proposal was really bad.
I disagree with your take on Quick. I wouldn't trade Gagne for Quick straight up (although Gagne's trade value isn't all that high for a guy as good as he is), and Coburn for Quick would really make me pause, but I do think Quick is going to be very good. Gagne AND Coburn is ridiculous.

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Old
06-16-2010, 11:18 PM
  #87
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Dude Chris before you bash anyone, Ive seen like one other person agree with you on here today, in fact people were insulting you for your "yes im an expert" tag. Im just giving my views with my logic, i did not say I was right, im just stating my opinion, I am sorry I like to use reference to stats and salary cap economics when I discuss trade rumors. Christ. Now just for ***** and giggles, who would you rather have on your team Coburn or Hamhuis? I mean do you watch any other teams aside from the Flyers? Because it seems as though if you were the GM the team would be exactly the same next season. I am just saying moving coburn, regardless of where he goes would allow us to pursue Hamhuis, who is similar in size to Coburn but he is a much more responsible defensman, with better offensive talent, plus his nickname is the hammer due to his bonecrushing hits. He played with Timonen in Nashville, it would be nice to see them together again, and I am sure Timonen could lure him here, not to mention the Flyers almost traded Parent for him at the deadline when Nash decided they wanted Parent and Coburn, which is just absurd for a UFA dman who Holmgren said hed pursue in the offseason.

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Old
06-16-2010, 11:32 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Dude Chris before you bash anyone, Ive seen like one other person agree with you on here today, in fact people were insulting you for your "yes im an expert" tag.
I get bashed as much as I bash other people's ideas. It comes with the title and the pretty green color. I'm not worried about it at the end of the day. HF would suck if everyone agreed. The quote is a joke. People will get over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Im just giving my views with my logic, i did not say I was right, im just stating my opinion, I am sorry I like to use reference to stats and salary cap economics when I discuss trade rumors. Christ.
Okay, but it's not like I'm not going to say something when you make your opinions known. People will get the wrong impression that we're selling off our Cup runner-up team for what basically amounts to spare parts.

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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Now just for ***** and giggles, who would you rather have on your team Coburn or Hamhuis?
Hamhuis right now, but I think the way Coburn has played for the last 4-5 months is really telling about what he's going to be in his prime (remember defensemen peak far later than forwards). I'll take his size and skating on my team any day. If he gets a more physical edge, I'm not going to complain. I like Coburn. I think he's got the potential to be a workhorse on the top pairing within a year at the most. Maybe I'll be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, but again, I'm not going to worry about it. Nothing's a perfect science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
I mean do you watch any other teams aside from the Flyers?
I think it's a safe assumption that I watch more hockey than you. Not being rude or mean. I just think it should pretty much go without saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
Because it seems as though if you were the GM the team would be exactly the same next season.
I have no problem whatsoever with keeping the team exactly the same and signing someone like Ellis or Turco or even Biron again. We were just the Cup runner-up were we not? We have arguably the deepest team in the NHL offensively and defensively. The only team that can argue against us might be Chicago; maybe Detroit and some others as well, but it's a short list. That depth is what got us to the Finals. Trading away that depth is counterproductive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
I am just saying moving coburn, regardless of where he goes would allow us to pursue Hamhuis, who is similar in size to Coburn but he is a much more responsible defensman, with better offensive talent, plus his nickname is the hammer due to his bonecrushing hits.
I'm not interested in paying the 4.0m-5.0m for Hamhuis on the open market. That's an overpayment. Sorry. He's a nice piece, but I'm just not interested. You don't upgrade just to upgrade, particularly when our top 4 is already likely the best in the NHL. We need some work on our bottom pairing, but our top four should not change. It's already proven to have good chemistry, and Hamhuis is not enough better than Coburn to make an argument for the move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
He played with Timonen in Nashville, it would be nice to see them together again, and I am sure Timonen could lure him here, not to mention the Flyers almost traded Parent for him at the deadline when Nash decided they wanted Parent and Coburn, which is just absurd for a UFA dman who Holmgren said hed pursue in the offseason.
As much as I don't want to give up on Parent, if he helps us in a package deal I'll move him because of his injury history. His value to us as someone with decent potential (and he has shown glimmers of that potential in prior seasons) is more than what we'd get for him. Coburn is roughly the same way, but he's got a much better skill-set, and he's played awesome for a while now.

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Old
06-17-2010, 01:50 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post

Leino - Briere - Hartnell
Ryan - Richards -
JVR - Giroux -
Lappy - Betts -

Pronger - Carle
Timonen -
Bartulis -

Quick - Boucher
One would think that after finally getting traded out of RW Land/Anaheim to RW-less Land/Philly, Ryan would get a chance to play RW instead of LW don't you think???

And isnt Lappy more a RW and Center than LW???

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06-17-2010, 02:01 AM
  #90
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One would think that after finally getting traded out of RW Land/Anaheim to RW-less Land/Philly, Ryan would get a chance to play RW instead of LW don't you think???

And isnt Lappy more a RW and Center than LW???
He did it backwards. Assuming we trade Carter straight up for Ryan:

Hartnell - Briere - Leino
Gagne - Richards - (Maroon/Testwuide)
vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - Ryan
Powe - Betts - Laperriere

Pronger - Carle
Timonen - Coburn
Parent - Bartulis

Ellis/Turco
Leighton/Boucher

I'll take that team 10x out of 10. Absolutely dominant team if we can turn Carter into someone capable of playing on the wing. I like Carter, but we need a winger. Yes, the team has roughly three first lines and two top pairings.

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Old
06-17-2010, 02:09 AM
  #91
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If the Ducks are to give up Ryan, I'd like to see JVR coming back the other way.

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06-17-2010, 02:13 AM
  #92
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Ron Hextall on goalies:

(Bernier) did everything we asked him to do. Now it's time for him to him to come to camp and prove that he belongs here. If he does that, then obvioulsy we'll need to move some parts around. Having two real good young goalies is a great thing to have. We know teams are looking for goalies, but we're certainly not looking to move a guy.

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06-17-2010, 02:18 AM
  #93
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If the Ducks are to give up Ryan, I'd like to see JVR coming back the other way.
JVR + Carter? You're out of your mind from a Philly POV.

JVR+something? You're out of your mind from an Anaheim POV.

Carter for Ryan is fair and roughly even. Carter is a little older (not much as he still hasn't entered his prime) but the better player now. Ryan is having contract disputes with Anaheim, but Carter is stuck in a tough position in Philly due to his inability to play on the outside. Regardless, I see neither going much higher than $6.00m on either team in a long-term deal, which both deserve and should get (maybe not Ryan right away and not Carter until after this upcoming season). Anaheim could use a little YOUNG offensive depth down the middle (I don't like Holland and I can tell you that most of the HF is not exactly high on him either, and Palmieri is more of a defensive forward). Philly could definitely use some YOUNG offensive depth down the wing (Giroux has been for all intents and purposes converted to center almost full-time).

I think it makes a lot of sense both ways. I don't know the odds of it happening though. Consider GM's homers when players of this magnitude come up. Either side will want a little something extra with neither side budging. If it comes down to it, it will most likely be a straight trade with a meaningless pick/prospect tacked onto either side.


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Old
06-17-2010, 02:25 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR + Carter? You're out of your mind from a Philly POV.

JVR+something? You're out of your mind from an Anaheim POV.

Carter for Ryan is fair and roughly even. Carter is a little older (not much as he still hasn't entered his prime) but the better player now. Ryan is having contract disputes with Anaheim, but Carter is stuck in a tough position in Philly due to his inability to play on the outside. Regardless, I see neither going much higher than $6.00m on either team in a long-term deal, which both deserve and should get (maybe not Ryan right away and not Carter until after this upcoming season). Anaheim could use a little YOUNG offensive depth down the middle (I don't like Holland and I can tell you that most of the HF is not exactly high on him either, and Palmieri is more of a defensive forward). Philly could definitely use some YOUNG offensive depth down the wing (Giroux has been for all intents and purposes converted to center almost full-time).

I think it makes a lot of sense both ways. I don't know the odds of it happening though. Consider GM's homers when players of this magnitude come up. Either side will want a little something extra with neither side budging. If it comes down to it, it will most likely be a straight trade with a meaningless pick/prospect tacked onto either side.
Then no deal... Simple as that.

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06-17-2010, 02:30 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by John Wayne Gretzky View Post
to pursue Hamhuis, who is similar in size to Coburn but he is a much more responsible defensman, with better offensive talent, plus his nickname is the hammer due to his bonecrushing hits.
Hamhuis 6'1 209
Coburn 6'5 220

And Hamhuis' nickname is Hammer because it fits Hamhuis, not because he hits a lot and hard, which he really doesn't do.

Funny you say Chris only watches Flyers games while you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Hamhuis will go for 4.5mil/year or more as a FA on a long term deal, something the Flyers cant effort and wouldn't make to much sense if you look at our d-corps.

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06-17-2010, 02:33 AM
  #96
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Then no deal... Simple as that.
What exactly were you expecting?

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06-17-2010, 02:40 AM
  #97
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What exactly were you expecting?
Probably get sense to the trade from ducks point of view. I doubt Ryan will be on the move without an overpayment.

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06-17-2010, 02:44 AM
  #98
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Probably get sense to the trade from ducks point of view. I doubt Ryan will be on the move without an overpayment.
Oh, I know the Ducks fairly well. I worked their prospect pool when I first came here before being moved to my hometown team.

I'm actually a fan of the Ducks. Forsberg and Pronger have been my favorite players since I can remember. It makes sense that I'm a Flyers and Ducks fan, now a kid from down the street from me plays for the Ducks.

It's not like I'm coming into this blind to the Ducks needs, but it doesn't make sense that you say you doubt Ryan will get moved for anything short of overpayment because neither will Carter. Both are important key players to each team. Both players are studs. Neither player has to be moved, but both are in less than desirable situations with their club in a sense.

I'm looking at it from both sides, but it doesn't seem to me like you are.

It makes sense. Will it happen? Probably not, but there's no reason to assume that I'm not looking at it from both sides.

If you're assuming Carter + JVR for Ryan, you are quite literally out of your mind.

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06-17-2010, 02:57 AM
  #99
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Oh, I know the Ducks fairly well. I worked their prospect pool when I first came here before being moved to my hometown team.

I'm actually a fan of the Ducks. Forsberg and Pronger have been my favorite players since I can remember. It makes sense that I'm a Flyers and Ducks fan, now a kid from down the street from me plays for the Ducks.

It's not like I'm coming into this blind to the Ducks needs, but it doesn't make sense that you say you doubt Ryan will get moved for anything short of overpayment because neither will Carter. Both are important key players to each team. Both players are studs. Neither player has to be moved, but both are in less than desirable situations with their club in a sense.

I'm looking at it from both sides, but it doesn't seem to me like you are.

It makes sense. Will it happen? Probably not, but there's no reason to assume that I'm not looking at it from both sides.

If you're assuming Carter + JVR for Ryan, you are quite literally out of your mind.
It's the Philly side which here is pushing the trade. And you want the ducks to overpay. They have no need to do that, no need to trade at all.

I agree that Carter for Ryan in value is pretty much even, but I just don't see that trade working as it is now. If we would know Ryan's next contract, things could be different.
The thing is ducks already have 1# center in Getz, and Carter would be expensive number 2, and wouldn't get the TOI he deserves IMO.
And I understand the philly side aswell. Richards, Briere, Giroux and Carter as centermen, and it makes alot of sense to trade Carter to a winger. Just not Ryan IMO

And I didn't mean that JVR + Carter would happen.

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06-17-2010, 03:06 AM
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Paul4587
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
JVR + Carter? You're out of your mind from a Philly POV.

JVR+something? You're out of your mind from an Anaheim POV.

Carter for Ryan is fair and roughly even. Carter is a little older (not much as he still hasn't entered his prime) but the better player now. Ryan is having contract disputes with Anaheim, but Carter is stuck in a tough position in Philly due to his inability to play on the outside. Regardless, I see neither going much higher than $6.00m on either team in a long-term deal, which both deserve and should get (maybe not Ryan right away and not Carter until after this upcoming season). Anaheim could use a little YOUNG offensive depth down the middle (I don't like Holland and I can tell you that most of the HF is not exactly high on him either, and Palmieri is more of a defensive forward). Philly could definitely use some YOUNG offensive depth down the wing (Giroux has been for all intents and purposes converted to center almost full-time).

I think it makes a lot of sense both ways. I don't know the odds of it happening though. Consider GM's homers when players of this magnitude come up. Either side will want a little something extra with neither side budging. If it comes down to it, it will most likely be a straight trade with a meaningless pick/prospect tacked onto either side.
Completely off topic but why is it that you and other HF staff are not high on him? I assume you guys have seen a lot more of him than I have and was wondering what it is that gives you this feeling?

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