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Next 4 years - Stanley Cup Bound?

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Old
06-16-2010, 11:21 AM
  #1
coolasprICE
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Next 4 years - Stanley Cup Bound?

Our Core for the next 4 years (assuming Plekanec stays):


Cammy 6
Gionta 5
Gomez 7.3
Plekanec 5

= 23.3 M (12.3 M on 2 centers that would not make the 1st line on many teams)

- Assuming Cap is 60 M , we have 36.7 M for 19 players. This gives us an avg cap hit of 1,93 M / player for the 19 remaining.

- Only big name young potential impact/ franchise player we have looking forward is PK Subban.

- Very thin on 'quality' prospects looking forward.



Are you happy with this core at this price for the next 4 years?

Do you feel confident that we can win a Stanley Cup when comparing the value of our core with that of other teams?

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06-16-2010, 11:23 AM
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LyricalLyricist
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Thing is, these centers CAN make first line on many teams, doesn't mean those teams will be great.

I don't see us as a true contender...but you never know.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet against habs. I know it sounds pessimistic, but there's 30 teams, only one wins...safer to suggest we won't win right?

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06-16-2010, 11:36 AM
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There is no quit in this team, and they show it in the playoffs... Yes I am comfortable with this core for the next 4 years. Don't count out our stud goalies as part of the core... they kinda matter too. Maybe another center with size instead of Pleks would help, but I don't mind keeping him instead.

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06-16-2010, 11:38 AM
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Without major changes, I see us being good playoff perfmormers in the next years to come. With some twitches, I also see us making a pitch at the cup at some point. I see us go far especially if we finally upgrade our top 6 with 1-2 gritty & talented wingers, an upgrade that is within our reach with the Halak/Price rumors flying around.

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06-16-2010, 12:00 PM
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ya we could be contenders if we keep our core and build on it with size.

The thing that I would add is that, I know our top 6 were decent with not alot of size, but full credit to Halak and the defense. #1 going even into the cup finals with blocked shots. Gill, Gorges, Spacek, and Hamr truly amazing with their roles, especially the amazing chemistry with Gorges and Gill. If we want to compete we need repeat preformances.

What will effect the Habs for the next few years, is finding perfect replacements for Hamr and Gill in particular. Gorges should be locked up long term. Subban and Markov lock them up too.

We will need to address it with physical point producers on the blueline I find. Maybe like I proposed before maybe a Girardi or player like Gleason from Carolina (but on the market) because Gleason is a keeper in Carolina.

After this season we will likely be left with:

Subban, Markov, Gorges, Spacek. We need to build on that. We will see at the start of next season if O'byrne can be a fulltimer, He hasn't proved he could be a fulltimer, he did at the beginning of the season then started to slip. It might be because Martin doesn't use him properly or such.

If one of our goaltenders goes, we know we are still strong in net with either goalie. Like another poster said with rumors flying around about getting a top 6 forward for either one, that would basically build our top 6 which we need. Our D is fine and Goaltending, the size up front I think will work itself out by the draft in a deal or free agency. I am looking forward to September thats all I know, given how well we were as a team throughout the playoffs, and compete with teams that were suppose to run all over us. Now they have to transfer that play to the season and keep it going into the playoffs.

Nothing but up from here with the core we have for the next few years (IMO).


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06-16-2010, 12:01 PM
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We're going to get good playoff performances for the next four years with this core. Are we Stanley Cup bound? Who knows. Time will tell. I obviously hop so. But the team has a 'never say die' attitude, as we saw this year in the playoffs, coming back down 3 games against the Capitals in round one and 2 games against the Penguins in round two, which will give us some great playoff performances for the next four years.

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06-16-2010, 12:06 PM
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With a tougher, shut down d replacing spacek and a strong, gritty, scoring player somewhere in the top 6, i think we can compete for a cup. Until then, no, not really.

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06-16-2010, 12:12 PM
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I can't help but feel this is a somewhat underwhelming squad that can't win a cup barring really really smart moves this summer. But then again I never saw them make the ECF this year. I'll wait until the summer's moves are done before commenting.

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06-16-2010, 12:13 PM
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The only we win the cup is if we get bigger, stronger and better on defense!

We need a line up like this:

Pouliot - Gomez - Gionta
Cammalleri - Marleau - Versteeg
Pouliot - Lapierre - Moen
Pyatt - Trotter - Kristo

Markov - Hamhuis
Gorges - Subban
O'Byrne - Spacek

Price
Halak

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06-16-2010, 12:15 PM
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Des Louise
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
With a tougher, shut down d replacing spacek and a strong, gritty, scoring player somewhere in the top 6, i think we can compete for a cup. Until then, no, not really.
Much more than a tough shut down D, I feel we need puck moving Ds to help our transition. Subban was a pretty big relief there, but it would help to have a bit more.

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06-16-2010, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
(12.3 M on 2 centers that would not make the 1st line on many teams)
Really?!?! Which teams?

Last year was the first year this team was together. They made it to the Conference Finals, with their best defenceman out of the lineup for over half of the year and playoffs. That says a lot.


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06-16-2010, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
I can't help but feel this is a somewhat underwhelming squad that can't win a cup barring really really smart moves this summer. But then again I never saw them make the ECF this year. I'll wait until the summer's moves are done before commenting.
I echo this. We never really know what will happen. Some smart moves would be nice, some progression from some younger players/prospects would be great, maybe I'd at least start to feel confident about *making* the playoffs with those. Then bippity-boppity-boo for Cup hopes.

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06-16-2010, 12:34 PM
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How long until people realize our core isn't the problem. The supporting cast is.

Cammalleri, Gionta, Gomez, Subban, Markov and one goalie is our core for the next few years.

Which teams in the league do own a better core than this?

Detroit - Yes (Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Franzen-Lidstrom-Rafalski-Howard)
Nashville - No (Arnott - Dumont - Hornqvist - Weber - Suter - Rinne)
Columbus - No (Nash - Vermette - Huselius - Hejda - Tyutin - Mason)
St. Louis - No (Perron - McDonald - Backes - Johnson - Jackman - ???)
Chicago - Yes (Toews - Kane - Hossa - Keith - Seabrook - Niemi)

Vancouver - Yes, only because of the Sedins and Luongo
Colorado - No (Stastny - Duchene - Mueller - Quincey - Liles - Anderson)
Edmonton - No (Hemsky - Penner - Horcoff - Whitney - Souray ??? - Khabibulin)
Minnesota - No (Latendresse - Havlat - Koivu - Burns - Barker - Backstrom)
Calgary - No (Iginla - Stajan - Bourque - Bouwmeester - Regehr - Kipprusoff)

Phoenix - No (Doan - Hanzal - Wolski - Jovanovski -Yandle - Bryzgalov)
San Jose - Yes (Marleau ??? - Thornton - Heatley - Boyle - Vlasic - Nabokov ???)
Anaheim - Yes, but terrible supporting cast.
LA - Yes (Kopitar - Smyth - Brown - Doughty - Johnson - Quick)
Dallas - No (Richards - Eriksson - Neal - Robidas - Daley - ???)

Boston - Similar (Savard - Krejci - Bergeron - Chara - Seidenberg - Thomas)
Leafs - No (Bozak - Kessel - Kulemin - Phaneuf - Kaberle ??? - Giguere)
Ottawa - No (Alfredsson - Spezza - Kovalev - Phillips - Kuba - Elliott)
Buffalo - No (Roy - Pominville - Vanek - Myers - Rivet - Miller)

Pittsburgh - Yes
Philadelphia - Yes (Richards - Carter - Giroux - Timonen - Pronger - ???)
New Jersey - I'm not so sure anymore. Mainly because of their weakness on the blueline.
NYR - No (Gaborik - Dubinsky - Prospal - Roszival - Del Zotto - Lundqvist)
NYI - No (Tavares - Moulson - Okposo - Streit - Witt - Roloson)

Carolina - No (Jokinen - Staal - Sutter - Pitkanen - Gleason - Ward)
Atlanta - No (Antropov - Kane - Afinogenov ??? - Boogosian - Enstrom - Pavelec)
Florida - No (Weiss - Booth - Stillman/Frolik - Ballard - Kulikov ??? - Vokoun)
Tampa - Offense, yes; overall, No (Lecavalier - St. Louis - Stamkos - Hedman - Ohlund - Smith ???)
Washington - Yes (Ovechkin - Semin - Backstrom - Green - Poti - Varlamov)

Overall, there are maximum 12 teams that own a better/similar core. And three among them (Tampa, NJ, Boston) have a similar core to ours if we compare pure strength on paper. Our core is not the problem. Our supporting cast is. Having a player like Plekanec to support those 6 guys is crucial.

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06-16-2010, 12:35 PM
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Who knows, let's see what our team will look like october 1st.

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06-16-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
The only we win the cup is if we get bigger, stronger and better on defense!

We need a line up like this:

Pouliot - Gomez - Gionta
Cammalleri - Marleau - Versteeg
Pouliot - Lapierre - Moen
Pyatt - Trotter - Kristo

Markov - Hamhuis
Gorges - Subban
O'Byrne - Spacek

Price
Halak
Did you mean to play Pouliot on two lines?

Trotter is probably too small.....and Kristo is not ready....

I would love Marleau but I doubt we can affoard him....

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06-16-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
How long until people realize our core isn't the problem. The supporting cast is.

Cammalleri, Gionta, Gomez, Subban, Markov and one goalie is our core for the next few years.

Which teams in the league do own a better core than this?

Detroit - Yes (Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Franzen-Lidstrom-Rafalski-Howard)
Nashville - No (Arnott - Dumont - Hornqvist - Weber - Suter - Rinne)
Columbus - No (Nash - Vermette - Huselius - Hejda - Tyutin - Mason)
St. Louis - No (Perron - McDonald - Backes - Johnson - Jackman - ???)
Chicago - Yes (Toews - Kane - Hossa - Keith - Seabrook - Niemi)

Vancouver - Yes, only because of the Sedins and Luongo
Colorado - No (Stastny - Duchene - Mueller - Quincey - Liles - Anderson)
Edmonton - No (Hemsky - Penner - Horcoff - Whitney - Souray ??? - Khabibulin)
Minnesota - No (Latendresse - Havlat - Koivu - Burns - Barker - Backstrom)
Calgary - No (Iginla - Stajan - Bourque - Bouwmeester - Regehr - Kipprusoff)

Phoenix - No (Doan - Hanzal - Wolski - Jovanovski -Yandle - Bryzgalov)
San Jose - Yes (Marleau ??? - Thornton - Heatley - Boyle - Vlasic - Nabokov ???)
Anaheim - Yes, but terrible supporting cast.
LA - Yes (Kopitar - Smyth - Brown - Doughty - Johnson - Quick)
Dallas - No (Richards - Eriksson - Neal - Robidas - Daley - ???)

Boston - Similar (Savard - Krejci - Bergeron - Chara - Seidenberg - Thomas)
Leafs - No (Bozak - Kessel - Kulemin - Phaneuf - Kaberle ??? - Giguere)
Ottawa - No (Alfredsson - Spezza - Kovalev - Phillips - Kuba - Elliott)
Buffalo - No (Roy - Pominville - Vanek - Myers - Rivet - Miller)

Pittsburgh - Yes
Philadelphia - Yes (Richards - Carter - Giroux - Timonen - Pronger - ???)
New Jersey - I'm not so sure anymore. Mainly because of their weakness on the blueline.
NYR - No (Gaborik - Dubinsky - Prospal - Roszival - Del Zotto - Lundqvist)
NYI - No (Tavares - Moulson - Okposo - Streit - Witt - Roloson)

Carolina - No (Jokinen - Staal - Sutter - Pitkanen - Gleason - Ward)
Atlanta - No (Antropov - Kane - Afinogenov ??? - Boogosian - Enstrom - Pavelec)
Florida - No (Weiss - Booth - Stillman/Frolik - Ballard - Kulikov ??? - Vokoun)
Tampa - Offense, yes; overall, No (Lecavalier - St. Louis - Stamkos - Hedman - Ohlund - Smith ???)
Washington - Yes (Ovechkin - Semin - Backstrom - Green - Poti - Varlamov)

Overall, there are maximum 12 teams that own a better/similar core. And three among them (Tampa, NJ, Boston) have a similar core to ours if we compare pure strength on paper. Our core is not the problem. Our supporting cast is. Having a player like Plekanec to support those 6 guys is crucial.
Rask would be the goalie in Boston looking forward but all in all a good exhaustive list.....

Stall on D for NY Rangers replacing Rozie is probably more accurate.....

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06-16-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Our Core for the next 4 years (assuming Plekanec stays):


Cammy 6
Gionta 5
Gomez 7.3
Plekanec 5

= 23.3 M (12.3 M on 2 centers that would not make the 1st line on many teams)

- Assuming Cap is 60 M , we have 36.7 M for 19 players. This gives us an avg cap hit of 1,93 M / player for the 19 remaining.

- Only big name young potential impact/ franchise player we have looking forward is PK Subban.

- Very thin on 'quality' prospects looking forward.

Are you happy with this core at this price for the next 4 years?

Do you feel confident that we can win a Stanley Cup when comparing the value of our core with that of other teams?

IMHO, I think your analysis is accurate.........(i.e. the Habs appear to be very (?) thin on quality prospects.

About competing for the Cup.......at least to me, teams that are built for the Cup seem to have been developed through good drafting and player development, while adding a few key (player) components through trades and FA signings!

Perhaps I am wrong, but to me, I can't see the Habs becomming a serious Cup contender until they are able to build a strong core of roster players through drafting and player development.

Maybe the "restructuring" of the scoUting staff is a step in the right direction.....who knows!


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06-16-2010, 12:52 PM
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IMHO, I think your analysis is accurate.........(i.e. the Habs appear to be very (?) thin on quality prospects.

About competing for the Cup.......at least to me, teams that are built for the Cup seem to have been developed through good drafting and player development, while adding a few key (player) components through trades and FA signings!

Perhaps I am wrong, but to me, I can't see the Habs becomming a serious Cup contender until they are able to build a strong core of roster players through drafting and player development.

Maybe the "restructuring" of the scoUting staff is a step in the right direction.....who knows!

Yet we made the top 4 this year....I get what you are saying....but I think once you are part of a group that can actually make it to the top 4.....anything can happen.....Are we going to dominate the league?....no, that much is almost sure....but can we make it to the SC and perhaps win it.....well, if we get all the breaks (which SC teams typically have), who knows.....As this year showed, if you have sufficient talent and that "sparke" that good playoff performing teams have, it is entirely possible....

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06-16-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
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Overall, there are maximum 12 teams that own a better/similar core. And three among them (Tampa, NJ, Boston) have a similar core to ours if we compare pure strength on paper. Our core is not the problem. Our supporting cast is. Having a player like Plekanec to support those 6 guys is crucial.
12 teams in your opinion that own a better or similar core, and 12 teams that will also be looking to improve their supporting cast. The picture your painting seems to me like one of a team that is going to compete - but not one that is highly expected to WIN it all.

History shows us that the teams with best core win... of course there is more to the puzzle, such as young talent and good contracts.

Also, you're excluding Plekanec and adding PK Subban. You are right with PK, we'll see what happens with Plekanec.... If not for Gomez I would have been on board to keeping him. Center to me is the most important position, and Gomez and Plekanec on the top 2 lines would be competitive, but far far far from elite.

It's amazing how accepted mediocrity has become ...

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06-16-2010, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
12 teams in your opinion that own a better or similar core, and 12 teams that will also be looking to improve their supporting cast. The picture your painting seems to me like one of a team that is going to compete - but not one that is highly expected to WIN it all.

History shows us that the teams with best core win... of course there is more to the puzzle, such as young talent and good contracts.

Also, you're excluding Plekanec and adding PK Subban. You are right with PK, we'll see what happens with Plekanec.... If not for Gomez I would have been on board to keeping him. Center to me is the most important position, and Gomez and Plekanec on the top 2 lines would be competitive, but far far far from elite.

It's amazing how accepted mediocrity has become ...
I think teams with more depth in their lineups have been the ones to win. Detroit, Hawks, Ducks, Canes were all stacked teams. Pens were the only exception as their depth wasn't that great, but wasn't bad either.

Of course you need a strong core, but you need guys elsewhere in the lineup who can step up. Imagine if Chicago didn't have Sharp to fill in for Toews' little slump in final.

As for the mediocrity, it took us the furthest we've been in 17 years. Plus, like many said, we just don't what happens between right now and four years from now as your post suggests. I'm not saying we can't look at the future or that it should be forbidden, but we are already kind of complaining about something that hasn't happened yet. The least we can do is wait until july 1st to see where this team is heading before we start criticizing it.

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06-16-2010, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
12 teams in your opinion that own a better or similar core, and 12 teams that will also be looking to improve their supporting cast. The picture your painting seems to me like one of a team that is going to compete - but not one that is highly expected to WIN it all.

History shows us that the teams with best core win... of course there is more to the puzzle, such as young talent and good contracts.

Also, you're excluding Plekanec and adding PK Subban. You are right with PK, we'll see what happens with Plekanec.... If not for Gomez I would have been on board to keeping him. Center to me is the most important position, and Gomez and Plekanec on the top 2 lines would be competitive, but far far far from elite.

It's amazing how accepted mediocrity has become ...
Hmm....Some good Islanders teams (with the core that won the SC),. Edmonton teams (with the same core that won the SC) and Montreal teams (again with the core that won the SC) have all lost on some seasons while having the best core.....And what about Washington this year with a great core? Or Pittsburg for that matter?

Core has to be balanced with depth......I dont think I agree that best core wins.....at least, its not as automatic as its sounds in your statement.....they have better odds perhaps?

Not sure if we are accepting mediocrity.....I think we are playing the cards we have.....

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06-16-2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Thing is, these centers CAN make first line on many teams, doesn't mean those teams will be great.

I don't see us as a true contender...but you never know.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet against habs. I know it sounds pessimistic, but there's 30 teams, only one wins...safer to suggest we won't win right?
Yeah but two make it to the cup. I'm not sure if the OP meant we win the cup or at minimum make it to the SCF.

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06-16-2010, 01:24 PM
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I'd say Buffalo has a better core than us after glancing through that list. Might be others that I missed.

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06-16-2010, 01:36 PM
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Hmm....Some good Islanders teams (with the core that won the SC),. Edmonton teams (with the same core that won the SC) and Montreal teams (again with the core that won the SC) have all lost on some seasons while having the best core.....And what about Washington this year with a great core? Or Pittsburg for that matter?

Core has to be balanced with depth......I dont think I agree that best core wins.....at least, its not as automatic as its sounds in your statement.....they have better odds perhaps?

Not sure if we are accepting mediocrity.....I think we are playing the cards we have.....
I said "there's more to the puzzle".

But it starts with your core and ends with the supporting cast. A strong supporting cast and a weak core is no recipe for Championships either.

Strong core + quality depth = Very Strong team = Contenders

Elementary.

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06-16-2010, 02:01 PM
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People here also seem to forget how the Hawks could have a very, very strong team, and still having Huet (2nd goaltender), Campbell (3rd d-man) and Marian Hossa (No big contributions in the playoffs) for a combined amount of about 18 millions bucks. Having Cammalleri, Gomez and Gionta for just over 18 millions sure doesn't look so bad to me.

Of course, they had some great deals on ELC, but Subban and Price/Halak are likely to both represent very cap-friendly assets going forward, and they can have a great impact. Maybe not as great as the one of Kane and Toews, but still a great impact.

The supporting core is what Gauthier has to build going forward. We have to develop our players better and go get some cap-friendly assets.

THAT BEING SAID, we're in no way in big troubles. Hamrlik just has 1 year remaining to his contract. That will help big time.

All this, while the cap is probably going to keep increasing, should be enough to be positive going forward. We need to develop guys like Pacioretty/Palushaj/Kristo/Leblanc good enough to make them contributors in the next few years. This, and manage our assets correctly. But I think this team is well built, and there are no reasons why we shouldn't believe in our own chances of repeating, and eventually, having a chance to compete with our main goal being the one of winning the Stanley Cup.

We just have to make clever decisions... like... not keeping one of our most valuable assets on the bench for the whole playoffs. Moving one goalie for a contributing, cap-friendly asset is vital going forward if we want to improve our team.

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