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Coburn on the trade Block?

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:19 PM
  #26
SufferingCatFan
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Forget not, the RFA offer sheet. At $3 million and under the comp is only a 2nd rounder.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:20 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I imagine Hamhuis will cost at least 3.5 million maybe even 4 million. Philly are going to have a great top 4 of Pronger - Carle/Coburn and Hamhuis - Timonen but they're likely going to have a very cheap bottom pairing.
And that killed them in the playoffs, Pronger and the rest of the top 4 needed some relief and couldn't get that because they had to play 25 plus minutes each, with Pronger and sometimes Coburn creeping in the 30 minutes plus.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:21 PM
  #28
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If you don't want to move Timonen over Carle (based purely on age) then the logical argument against it is that you feel trading Carle won't hurt you much because you can sign a UFA D-Man for a reasonable price to replace the loss of a young decent player like Carle when the time comes.

I'm just saying as it stands now 5 years from now Philly's D looks like this. If you don't care whether Carle is there or not then the point is moot obviously. It is however quite logical to assume Prongs & Timonen will probably be done by then.

Hamhuis-Coburn
X - X
X - X

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:21 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
How does it make any sense to trade your 25 year old D-Men?

I mean it's not like Philly has a ton of young D coming up the pipeline. Timonen may play well until he's 38-39 but that's a rarity. More likely he's done after the next 2-3 years.

So what do Philly fans want? Three years of Timonen or ten years of Carle/Coburn? Hammy basically is a cheaper and decent replacement for everything Timonen does.

If you trade one of Carle or Coburn then 5 years from now you have only two decent D-Men on your team with Prongs/Timonen retired. That's not smart long-term thinking.

I see the short-term gain of moving Carle/Coburn but long term it's freaking suicide.
Philly has a couple of young defensemen who should make the NHL. Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, and Joonas Lehtivouri are all talented guys.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
And that killed them in the playoffs, Pronger and the rest of the top 4 needed some relief and couldn't get that because they had to play 25 plus minutes each, with Pronger and sometimes Coburn creeping in the 30 minutes plus.
Yeah it killed them so bad that they made it to game 6 and OT of the Stanley Cup finals against a loaded Blackhawks team...

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:22 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
And that killed them in the playoffs, Pronger and the rest of the top 4 needed some relief and couldn't get that because they had to play 25 plus minutes each, with Pronger and sometimes Coburn creeping in the 30 minutes plus.
That's why one of Coburn/Carle will be gone, and a decent 3rd pairing defensemen signed.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:23 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
If you don't want to move Timonen over Carle (based purely on age) then the logical argument against it is that you feel trading Carle won't hurt you much because you can sign a UFA D-Man for a reasonable price to replace the loss of a young decent player like Carle when the time comes.

I'm just saying as it stands now 5 years from now Philly's D looks like this. If you don't care whether Carle is there or not then the point is moot obviously. It is however quite logical to assume Prongs & Timonen will probably be done by then.

Hamhuis-Coburn
X - X
X - X

You should think through what other teams' defenses look like 5 years from now. The honest answer is probably.

X-X
X-X
X-X

You can't look at a whole defense 5 years into the future, that's absurd.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:25 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Philly has a couple of young defensemen who should make the NHL. Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, and Joonas Lehtivouri are all talented guys.
Well if you believe that then obviously the point is moot. The only thing I'm saying is that it's a risk to trade your younger guys with both Timonen and Prongs at 35 years of age already.

However the more I think it's probably a fair counter-argument to say Carle is the kind of 25-27 year old D-Man you can find as a UFA exactly the way they just nabbed Hamhuis.

I just see Hamhuis as almost the ideal replacement for Timonen. You're top four still stays strong and stays younger. I suppose whether it would long-term benefit the Flyers depends on what you get back.

I don't know what you'll get for Carle but you could probably get a pretty good ransom for an aging Timonen. It might be a good time to sell high. What would it take for you to think about it? Knowing your top four would still be rock solid. Middle of the pack 1st + a prospect? Recoup some of that youth?

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:27 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
Forget not, the RFA offer sheet. At $3 million and under the comp is only a 2nd rounder.
colburn will receive an offer sheet above $3m. the compensation will be a 1st/3rd pick. i see colburn being moved in a deal similar to montreal / st louis

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:27 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
How does it make any sense to trade your 25 year old D-Men?

I mean it's not like Philly has a ton of young D coming up the pipeline. Timonen may play well until he's 38-39 but that's a rarity. More likely he's done after the next 2-3 years.

So what do Philly fans want? Three years of Timonen or ten years of Carle/Coburn? Hammy basically is a cheaper and decent replacement for everything Timonen does.

If you trade one of Carle or Coburn then 5 years from now you have only two decent D-Men on your team with Prongs/Timonen retired. That's not smart long-term thinking.

I see the short-term gain of moving Carle/Coburn but long term it's freaking suicide.
I'll take three years of a top 15 defensemen while our key forwards are in their primes. You act like Carle=Timonen, but he does not, and being 10 years younger doesn't make up for their disparity in play.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:29 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
Well if you believe that then obviously the point is moot. The only thing I'm saying is that it's a risk to trade your younger guys with both Timonen and Prongs at 35 years of age already.

However the more I think it's probably a fair counter-argument to say Carle is the kind of 25-27 year old D-Man you can find as a UFA exactly the way they just nabbed Hamhuis.

I just see Hamhuis as almost the ideal replacement for Timonen. You're top four still stays strong and stays younger. I suppose whether it would long-term benefit the Flyers depends on what you get back.

I don't know what you'll get for Carle but you could probably get a pretty good ransom for an aging Timonen. It might be a good time to sell high. What would it take for you to think about it? Knowing your top four would still be rock solid. Middle of the pack 1st + a prospect? Recoup some of that youth?
I'm not sure if you understand the idea of a "window".

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:31 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
colburn will receive an offer sheet above $3m. the compensation will be a 1st/3rd pick. i see colburn being moved in a deal similar to montreal / st louis
I think the threshold will be something like $3.2 million. Someone will offer enough for a 2nd in compensation, but no more.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:32 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by carlweezer View Post
The Flyers have obviously had conversations with Hamhuis already (Philly would have to sign off on this) otherwise the Flyers wouldnt gamble in losing Parent! This is like when last year with J-bo and his rights, im sure as hell that teams are given permission to talk to RFA's/UFA's before their rights are traded..


I doubt they talked to him prior to making the trade.

Florida refused to allow any team to talk to Bouwmeester prior to making a trade last year. Basically Philly is paying to talk with Hamhuis before anyone. Realistically, so long as Hamhuis gets paid I don't see it a problem convincing him to come to a team that just made it to game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals. I think its worth the risk. Hamhuis will be a well sought after player and the ability to talk to him for 2 weeks prior to UFA is worth it, IMO.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:38 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
You should think through what other teams' defenses look like 5 years from now. The honest answer is probably.

X-X
X-X
X-X

You can't look at a whole defense 5 years into the future, that's absurd.
Yes you can? GM's do it every day unless their the worst GM in the league. So I'll do it for the team I follow most.

Ottawa:
X - Karlsson
Phillips - Wiercoch*/Cowen*
Campolli - Lee

I acknowledge that the projections change every year but that doesn't mean that GM's don't think about what things will look like long-term.

Cowen and Wiercoch are both expected by the Sens organization to play a top four role down the road. I'll project that at least one of them manages to achieve that five years from now.

The X is the UFA D-Man Ottawa will sign this summer. I expect they are targeting Z.Michalek. Whether they manage to land him or someone else is why that spot remains an empty X for now. Either way they will be grabbing someone to replace A-Train at a reasonable price.

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Old
06-19-2010, 01:40 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
I'll take three years of a top 15 defensemen while our key forwards are in their primes. You act like Carle=Timonen, but he does not, and being 10 years younger doesn't make up for their disparity in play.
Except that I don't.

I act like Hamhuis = Timonen. I think Hammy brings at least 80% of what Timmo brings + a little bit of cap relief since he should be paid less.


Last edited by Bejamin1*: 06-19-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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Old
06-19-2010, 01:47 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm not sure if you understand the idea of a "window".
I'm not sure you understand the concept of a future? I see Hamhuis as the guy that replaces Timonen long-term.

The argument for trading Carle is simple and it's that you can simply sign a UFA to replace what he brings. I think that's a fair argument and a good reason to trade Carle rather than an aging Timonen.

However you should include in your thoughts the possibility that the return for Timonen might be quite good. A top four of Prongs-Hamhuis-Coburn-Carle is certainly still very strong. The return could help Philly continue to be a Cup Contender long-term.

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:07 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
How does it make any sense to trade your 25 year old D-Men?

I mean it's not like Philly has a ton of young D coming up the pipeline. Timonen may play well until he's 38-39 but that's a rarity. More likely he's done after the next 2-3 years.

So what do Philly fans want? Three years of Timonen or ten years of Carle/Coburn? Hammy basically is a cheaper and decent replacement for everything Timonen does.

If you trade one of Carle or Coburn then 5 years from now you have only two decent D-Men on your team with Prongs/Timonen retired. That's not smart long-term thinking.

I see the short-term gain of moving Carle/Coburn but long term it's freaking suicide.
You do realize Timonen has a NTC in is contract right?

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:12 PM
  #43
o Hamhuis 2 x
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I don't understand why everybody hates Carle. He's much better than Coburn and you think Coburn is going to get better prospects?

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:17 PM
  #44
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Cory Schneider, SOB +? for Coburn

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:22 PM
  #45
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For the life of me I can't understand how so many people can be higher on Coburn then Carle. Carle had a good season, Coburn had a bad season and has declined two season's in a row. He plays a small mans game even though he looks like Big Birds twin and maybe it's just me but I can't stand the fact he is one of the worst d-men around with the puck. He can't get a shot to the net without having it blocked and can't seem to be able to find a way to clear pucks out of his own zone. Carle has offensive capabilities and is a perfect fit along side of Pronger who covers up his defensive lapses. Carle showed this season he can play important minutes on the blueline and progressed a great deal compared to the player we originally got.

As for Timonen being dealt, not happening. He has a NTC and at his salary nobody is going to take that on.

Coburn is all but gone, he wants more then the 3 million a season people are saying in here. They bring in Hamhuis for probally a million more then what Coburn wanted and they have a better defensmen in there 2nd pairing now.

However there is no doubt Holmgren has another deal in place depending on if he can get Hamhuis signed.

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:23 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Slapshot_11 View Post
Cory Schneider, SOB +? for Coburn
Shane O'brien has said the Flyers are one of the teams he would like to play for so your actually right on track with that thought.

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:30 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Slapshot_11 View Post
Cory Schneider, SOB +? for Coburn
Done and done from my end.


Gagne-Richards-Carter
Hartnell-Briere-Leino
JVR-Giroux-Powe
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere
Cote/Nodl/Maroon

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Hamhuis
SOB-Bartulis
Phantom

Turco/Ellis/Mason
Boucher
(Schneider)


The defense makes me feel tingly.

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:34 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejamin1 View Post
I'll post the same thing I posted in the other thread here.

I'll say it first. Timonen is the guy who will be moved.

Carle - 25
Coburn - 25
Hamhuis - 27
---------------------------------
Timonen - 35
Pronger - 35

Timonen is as wonderful a mobile all around D-Man as you can find but he's also expensive and getting up there in age. He probably has 2-3 good years left. Hamhuis replaces most of what he brings for less money.

Honestly you HF people seriously think they're going to trade Coburn or Carle? The guys who are 25 and are both coming off solid seasons & playoffs? Sure you might improve your team for a 1-2 year window but after that you'll have to look in the mirror and realize you gave away your quality 25 year old top four D-Man to hold onto a guy who is now 37 and done.
You have no idea what Kimmo Timonen does for this team. Matt Carle is never going to touch what Kimmo can do, the only reason Carle had a "solid season" as you say is because Pronger was covering his ass the entire season. Pronger makes everyone he plays with look much, much better and if they trade Carle, whoever gets him and thinks he could anchor a 2nd pairing or be on the 1st pairing without an elite defenseman is in for a rude awakening.

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:36 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapshot_11 View Post
Cory Schneider, SOB +? for Coburn
Hmmm... that's on the right track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Turco/Ellis/Mason
Boucher
(Schneider)
I'd get rid of Boucher in that situation. Schneider needs to get a lot of games this year

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Old
06-19-2010, 02:45 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
colburn will receive an offer sheet above $3m. the compensation will be a 1st/3rd pick. i see colburn being moved in a deal similar to montreal / st louis
Coburn.

No "L".

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