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Plekanec @ 5mill vs Marleau @ 6mill vs Kovalchuk @ 8mill

View Poll Results: Which one?
Plekanec - 5mill 119 33.15%
Marleau - 6mill 130 36.21%
Kovalchuk - 8mill 88 24.51%
None of these players are worth the salaries listed 22 6.13%
Voters: 359. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-21-2010, 03:36 PM
  #151
Max Levine
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The user you just replied to told you it was 6 teams not 12 he can choose to be traded to. Can't you count? That in itself indicates that your opinion is not to be taken seriously.

Kovalchuk is a franchise player. It would be totally insane for a team to scoff at what a Kovalchuk can bring to a team.

The Montreal Canadiens organization has already publicly said that it was prepared to throw the bank at Kovalchuk. So if the Montreal Canadiens organization has said it wants Kovalchuk no matter what do you think your opinion of Kovalchuk is worth anything or anyone elses? It's worth zero.
I'm the one he replied to and I said "6 teams in each conference". That would be 6*2 for a total of 12. Yup, he can count. Now, as to your reading ability...

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06-21-2010, 03:37 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Are you serious? When did they say that?
I think I read it online somehwere.

Read the paragraph under the heading Kovalchuk:"I am told that there is very serious talk in Montreal that the Habs are preparing to throw the bank at Ilya if they can. One source has always iterated to me that not taking on Lecavalier's salary may have had more to do with the possibility of Kovalchuk. Not certain, but that sentiment is out there in the hockey insider universe."

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=23552

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06-21-2010, 03:37 PM
  #153
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Marleau would be a ridiculously good addition to the Canadiens. I like Plekanec a lot, but Marleau is definitely one of the players I'd choose before him. That being said, I very highly doubt it ever happens.
Marleau would cost about 2 mil more and be a lesser fit than Pleks, his numbers are much better as a scoring winger than as a center. IMHO he will be overpriced because of his inflated numbers on that line with Thornton and Heatley.

IMHO Plekanec at 5 has a lot more value to us than Marleau at 6.5-7 mil.

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Originally Posted by Smoke Monster View Post
I think I read it online somehwere.

Read the paragraph under the heading Kovalchuk:"I am told that there is very serious talk in Montreal that the Habs are preparing to throw the bank at Ilya if they can. One source has always iterated to me that not taking on Lecavalier's salary may have had more to do with the possibility of Kovalchuk. Not certain, but that sentiment is out there in the hockey insider universe."

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=23552
Consider the source

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06-21-2010, 03:40 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Smoke Monster View Post
I think I read it online somehwere.

Read the paragraph under the heading Kovalchuk:"I am told that there is very serious talk in Montreal that the Habs are preparing to throw the bank at Ilya if they can. One source has always iterated to me that not taking on Lecavalier's salary may have had more to do with the possibility of Kovalchuk. Not certain, but that sentiment is out there in the hockey insider universe."

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=23552
Well damn I hope the Habs still thinks this way.

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Old
06-21-2010, 03:45 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Max Levine View Post
I'm the one he replied to and I said "6 teams in each conference". That would be 6*2 for a total of 12. Yup, he can count. Now, as to your reading ability...
I didn't get enough sleep yesterday and I just woke up from a long nap and did not have my coffee yet. I misread it, I thought it was 6 teams for both conferences. My mistake.

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06-21-2010, 03:46 PM
  #156
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In order to win a Stanley Cup your stars have to buy in to the team concept or you don't win anything at playoff time. If they don't compete without the puck, pass it when the other team gives them extra attention or block shots then it makes it hard for a team to win.

Kovalchuk is a gamebreaker and impact player, but to me he isn't a superstar. A superstar is a Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin that raises the play of teammates by his presence on the ice and in the room.

As for always having the puck, how is that remotely possible? No NHL player "always has the puck".

Chicago and Phillie showed you need a lot of depth to get to the finals, Phillie got there with Richards and Carter not doing much the last 2 rounds, and Chicago won despite Toews and Kane not doing much for a lot of the finals. Having 10-12 very good players is better than 4-5 stars and a bunch of pluggers...the best examples are TB and the Rangers.
Philly got through Montreal thanks to Giroux, Briere, Gagne and Pronger; plus a good defensive strategy. Stars make you win, depth is there to compliment them.

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06-21-2010, 03:47 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Smoke Monster View Post
I misread it. I thought it was 6 teams for both conferences. My mistake.
No problem here, lol

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Marleau would cost about 2 mil more and be a lesser fit than Pleks, his numbers are much better as a scoring winger than as a center. IMHO he will be overpriced because of his inflated numbers on that line with Thornton and Heatley.

IMHO Plekanec at 5 has a lot more value to us than Marleau at 6.5-7 mil.
I'm starting to think that Plek's agent number might be closer to 6. Otherwise, considering Gauthier mentioning his coach liking him, he'd be probably signed at $5M.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 06-22-2010 at 11:05 PM. Reason: Merge
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06-21-2010, 03:51 PM
  #158
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Well damn I hope the Habs still thinks this way.
That article is dated October 9, 2009.

That being said, Gainey did say he tried to go after him before he signed with NJD, it wasnt worded as "throw the bank" but there is interest (as there should be).

The difference between then and now is the Habs performance during the playoffs, that might make us even more attractive if Kovy is looking for a contender.

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06-21-2010, 03:54 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Marleau would cost about 2 mil more and be a lesser fit than Pleks, his numbers are much better as a scoring winger than as a center. IMHO he will be overpriced because of his inflated numbers on that line with Thornton and Heatley.

IMHO Plekanec at 5 has a lot more value to us than Marleau at 6.5-7 mil.
I agree. I think Marleau's numbers are inflated because of him playing along one of the greatest playmakers and puck feeders in hockey today - Joe Thorton.

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you have Kovalchuk and Cammalleri on the same line who will get them the puck...saying John Madden is a joke. Kovalchuk is dangerous 1 on 1 and on the rush so you don't necessarily need a great center for him, but Cammy needs a good playmaker to score 40 and play up to potential. Also the center on taht line would need to play both ways and be a good forechecker to get the puck for those guys.
Okay we won't put him on the second line. But we should consider getting him for his pk and shutdown ability, it would have come in useful against the slew of penalties we got against the flyers. Pair him up with Scott Nichols and we could have one of the best pk in the league. Madden was on the same Stanley cup winning New Jersey Devils team as Gomez and Gionta in 2002-03 and with Gomez in 1999-00 . I think it might work reuniting him with Gomez and Gionta.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 06-22-2010 at 11:05 PM. Reason: Merge
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Old
06-21-2010, 04:25 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke Monster View Post
I agree. I think Marleau's numbers are inflated because of him playing along one of the greatest playmakers and puck feeders in hockey today - Joe Thorton.
I'll argue that he's now being overshadowed by Thornton and Heatley. Have you ever seen him skate? He's in the top 1% of the NHL in terms of technique and just flat out speed and he's got a rocket of a shot, while being a pretty exceptional playmaker himself. Don't forget, he's only now coming into his prime. How is he supposed to be the outright leader of a team that has Joe Thornton and Dany Heatley up front? That's just unrealistic expectations.

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06-21-2010, 04:40 PM
  #161
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What's wrong with John Madden? I think he even played on the 2nd line in Chicago a little. He's a great two way player. He's very versatile and can be the set up man for either of them. He can forecheck, shutdown, penalty-kill. He just helped Chicago win the stanley cup. He may not score a lot but on a line with Kovalchuk and Cammalleri they will more than compensate for his lack of scoring. He has great speed and will be able to keep up with them. He is great defensively so he can adequate compensate for any defensive liabilities from Kovalchuk and Cammalleri, allowing the two of them to concentrate fully on the offensive side of the game and let Madden cover them defensively. He won three stanley cups. Madden was on the same Stanley cup winning New Jersey Devils team as Gomez and Gionta in 2002-03 and with Gomez in 1999-00 . I think he would fit here.
You are out to lunch...

He was 4th line for Chicago this year and he is 37 coming off 2 consecutive seasons of 23 points...in 29 playoff games the last 2 years he is 1-2-3. Nowhere near who you want centering Cammalleri. At this point in his career he is stricly a defensive specialist and PK guy on the 4th line.

Quote:
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I'll argue that he's now being overshadowed by Thornton and Heatley. Have you ever seen him skate? He's in the top 1% of the NHL in terms of technique and just flat out speed and he's got a rocket of a shot, while being a pretty exceptional playmaker himself. Don't forget, he's only now coming into his prime. How is he supposed to be the outright leader of a team that has Joe Thornton and Dany Heatley up front? That's just unrealistic expectations.
How is he "now coming into his prime"? He's turning 31 in September, forwards usually hit their prime at 22 or 23.

At center before playing on Thornton's wing, he average 65 points in the 5 years before 02-03 to 07-08. Hardly a guy I want to invest 6.5-7 mil into, plus he is soft.

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06-21-2010, 04:48 PM
  #162
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I'm assuming you forgot the
We are in desperate need of a playmaking winger and he's the best available.

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06-21-2010, 04:50 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How is he "now coming into his prime"? He's turning 31 in September, forwards usually hit their prime at 22 or 23.

At center before playing on Thornton's wing, he average 65 points in the 5 years before 02-03 to 07-08. Hardly a guy I want to invest 6.5-7 mil into, plus he is soft.
Haha Wow, there sure are many players in the NHL past their prime these days. There's a reason experience counts for a lot in pro sports. You must be new to this? Every player is different, not everyone is Sidney Crosby or Jonathan Toews, probably the only 2 players you were thinking of when you wrote your comment. For every one of those guys, I can give you an Yzerman or a Messier or a Brodeur or a Lidstrom who cemented their legacies well past their 20's into their 30's. I'm sorry, but that's the thinking of a run of the mill fan who has a terribly short memory who doesn't really understand how athletes progress. By your thinking, any athlete who hasn't won a championship for his team by the age of 24 is a bad asset. Don't you think that's a little unreasonable, my friend? You don't seem to be very down-to-earth.


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06-21-2010, 05:31 PM
  #164
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You are out to lunch...

He was 4th line for Chicago this year and he is 37 coming off 2 consecutive seasons of 23 points...in 29 playoff games the last 2 years he is 1-2-3. Nowhere near who you want centering Cammalleri. At this point in his career he is stricly a defensive specialist and PK guy on the 4th line.
Okay you are right he is a checking line player, it's just that I want Kovalchuk so desperately that I am willing to do almost anything. How about using Ellers,Matt Cullen,Matthew Lombardi,Brendan Morrison or even Kariya (at less than 2.5m) instead. We can still use Madden on pk, and along with Nichols they would be arguably the best pk team in the league?


Last edited by Smoke Monster: 06-21-2010 at 06:40 PM.
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06-21-2010, 05:35 PM
  #165
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How is he "now coming into his prime"? He's turning 31 in September, forwards usually hit their prime at 22 or 23.
You can't be serious...

Players usually enter their prime by age 27, not by age 22.

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06-21-2010, 05:38 PM
  #166
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Haha Wow, there sure are many players in the NHL past their prime these days. There's a reason experience counts for a lot in pro sports. You must be new to this? Every player is different, not everyone is Sidney Crosby or Jonathan Toews, probably the only 2 players you were thinking of when you wrote your comment. For every one of those guys, I can give you an Yzerman or a Messier or a Brodeur or a Lidstrom who cemented their legacies well past their 20's into their 30's. I'm sorry, but that's the thinking of a run of the mill fan who has a terribly short memory who doesn't really understand how athletes progress. By your thinking, any athlete who hasn't won a championship for his team by the age of 24 is a bad asset. Don't you think that's a little unreasonable, my friend? You don't seem to be very down-to-earth.
I don't think Marleau has progressed, he's just the same player playing with a supreme playmaker in Thornton(last 2 years) and sniping winger in Heatley(this past year).

"By your thinking, any athlete who hasn't won a championship for his team by the age of 24 is a bad asset. Don't you think that's a little unreasonable, my friend?"

How is that in any way my thinking? You said Marleau was entering into his prime, since when do players do that at 31?

Bottom line, unless we can get him cheaper than Plekanec(which has 0.000001% chance of happening), I'm not interested.

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You can't be serious...

Players usually enter their prime by age 27, not by age 22.
Not forwards. Maybe goalies and d-men.

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Originally Posted by Smoke Monster View Post
Okay you are right he is a checking line player, it's just that I want Kovalchuk so desperately that I am willing to do almost anything. How about using Ellers or even Kariya (at less than 2.5m) instead. We can still use Madden on pk, and along with Nichols or Moen they might make a good pk team?
You can be 100% assured of having Kovalchuk, just wait for him to sign and buy yourself a jersey and cheer for that team.

I prefer to cheer for a team, not individuals.

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Originally Posted by Smoke Monster View Post
Okay you are right he is a checking line player, it's just that I want Kovalchuk so desperately that I am willing to do almost anything. How about using Ellers or even Kariya (at less than 2.5m) instead. We can still use Madden on pk, and along with Nichols or Moen they might make a good pk team?
If we can get him for 800-900 k I'd sign him as 4th line center, but I think smobebody will overpay.

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06-21-2010, 05:57 PM
  #167
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Not forwards. Maybe goalies and d-men.
Forwards hit their prime at around 26-27. D-men and goalies usually hit their prime at 29-30. Both will plateau for 4-5 years before declining.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone. Some peak sooner, some plateau longer, and some decline later. But to say that forwards peak at 22... either you're 12, or you're amazingly idiotic... in both cases, you are forgiven.

http://www.thephysicsofhockey.com/documents/fitness.pdf
http://www.thephysicsofhockey.com/do.../yedefense.pdf

"We have shown that there is a similar trend for the defensemen production with NHL experience as with the forwards. Defensemen going on their 6th year of experience should be considered close to their prime. This is a delay of 2 seasons if we compare it to the forwards. The role of the defensemen, the number of game played and mostly their time on the powerplay should be considered along with Figure 3 to be at their prime offensively."

So, most forwards hit their prime in their 4th or 5th year, most forwards start playing full time at 21-22. Therefore, most hit their prime at 26-27 years of age...


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06-21-2010, 06:09 PM
  #168
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kovalchuk in montreal is an interesting prospect. I wonder if he could be talked into taking less considering how much he'd make here in endorsements. He'd be a god.

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06-21-2010, 06:11 PM
  #169
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Dude Kovalchuk has 6 consecutive seasons of at least 40 goals. SIX! He's a two time 50 goal scorer. The guy is a lock to score for you. If Heatley and Gaborik are making 7.5m a season, Kovalchuk is on par or better than both those guys and should make at least that much.
That's exactly why I want Kovalchuk at any price. Because he is "guaranteed" to score for the habs.

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06-21-2010, 06:21 PM
  #170
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That's exactly why I want Kovalchuk at any price. Because he is "guaranteed" to score for the habs.
He made Todd White, Eric Perrin and Rich Peverly look good. Can you imagine Gomez or Eller playing with him?

I want Kovalchuk....

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06-21-2010, 06:22 PM
  #171
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Why the **** is Marleau getting so many votes. Kovalchuk should be winning by a landslide.

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06-21-2010, 06:38 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Max et Guillaume View Post
Forwards hit their prime at around 26-27. D-men and goalies usually hit their prime at 29-30. Both will plateau for 4-5 years before declining.

Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone. Some peak sooner, some plateau longer, and some decline later. But to say that forwards peak at 22... either you're 12, or you're amazingly idiotic... in both cases, you are forgiven.

http://www.thephysicsofhockey.com/documents/fitness.pdf
http://www.thephysicsofhockey.com/do.../yedefense.pdf

"We have shown that there is a similar trend for the defensemen production with NHL experience as with the forwards. Defensemen going on their 6th year of experience should be considered close to their prime. This is a delay of 2 seasons if we compare it to the forwards. The role of the defensemen, the number of game played and mostly their time on the powerplay should be considered along with Figure 3 to be at their prime offensively."

So, most forwards hit their prime in their 4th or 5th year, most forwards start playing full time at 21-22. Therefore, most hit their prime at 26-27 years of age...
Most top 5 picks(which Marleau is) hit their 4th and 5th NHL years earlier because they usually crack the NHL at 18-19-20 not 21 and 22...Marleau was in his 12th season last year...so HOW IS HE JUST NOW ENTERING HIS PRIME??????

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06-21-2010, 06:43 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Why the **** is Marleau getting so many votes. Kovalchuk should be winning by a landslide.

For the last time, Kovalchuk is not and will not be going to a big market team or any team in the north for that matter.

He doesn't want the attention, enjoys his privacy too much and wants to be somewhere warm for his family.

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06-21-2010, 06:49 PM
  #174
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For the last time, Kovalchuk is not and will not be going to a big market team or any team in the north for that matter.

He doesn't want the attention, enjoys his privacy too much and wants to be somewhere warm for his family.
The question isn't which one is the likeliest but which one would I choose. Get it?

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06-21-2010, 06:55 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Why the **** is Marleau getting so many votes. Kovalchuk should be winning by a landslide.
agreed, its ALMOST "mindboggling, but i "get" it, center over winger. but kovalchuk should be what were after

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