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Hall of Fame Announcement June 22 - Will Bure get the call?

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Old
06-21-2010, 10:10 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
Bure is 3rd in Goals scored/game - look up the 500 goal scorers on wiki, extrapolate at what game # Bure would have scored his 500th, and compare. Bure would have reached 500 game # 803, ranked 4th (tied with Esposito). Gretz's goal scoring dropped significantly later in his career, as did Espo's so they both have less goals/Game than Bure although time to 500goals (or so) is probably a better measure.
I was comparing it Moreso to Neely. Who accomplished LESS than Bure in his career.

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06-21-2010, 10:22 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
It's not like Naslund beat out a bunch of great players to get there. His crown will be short lived.
So what? He beat out 2 guys that have their numbers retired.

And by saying that, you're inferring that Linden wasn't a great player. Hmmm?

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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Linden's and Smyl's jerseys weren't retired for their stats.
I acknowledged that with Linden in my earlier post. What Linden (and to a lesser extent - Smyl) did above & beyond Naslund besides their stats, is off-set by what Naslund did above & beyond them scoring wise.

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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Easy enough. Teams that have retired their leading scorers jerseys... given how short a period the Canucks have been in the league, let's only use teams that were added 1970 or later.

Buffalo: Gilbert Perreault, 1326 points
Carolina: Ron Francis, 1175 points
Phoenix: Dale Hawerchuck, 929 points

That is all. They all averaged a point or more per game in their careers. All are hall of fame players. For comparison:
Markus Naslund, 756 points
Right off the bat without even doing any fact checking - I know you're wrong.

Where's The Oilers on that list of the supposed 'Only' teams to have retired their scoring leaders # since 1970? Mr. Gretzky is a blazingly obvious omission from that list.

Also, where's Sakic with Colorado/Quebec?

There may be more - those are just off the top of my head.

And FYI, who cares when the franchise came into the league? For example, the Kings came into the league in 1967, and they retired their leading scorers number (Dionne)?

Also Neal Broten with the North Stars? (796 points as a North Star - which is almost on par with Naslund FYI).

Bernie Federko with STL?

How does the fact that those franchises came into the league three years prior to the Canucks have any bearing on whether Naslund did enough as a Canuck to be worthy of having his # retired by the Canucks?

And you also failed to factor in players that are currently their team's all time scoring leaders, who are also still CURRENTLY playing. (off the top of my head Iginla in Calgary / Lecavalier in Tampa / Elias in NJ) . They're all the franchise leading scorers for their respective teams, but the franchise can't exactly retire their number while they're still playing!? I'm fairly certain those 3 players mentioned would have their numbers retired once they hang up the skates.

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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
How can you argue that Naslund did anything notable? Never won a scoring record. Never won league MVP. As captain, his teams continually underperformed in the playoffs.
Linden & Smyl combined scoring records: 0

Linden & Smyl combined MVP awards: 0

Linden & Smyl combined Stanley Cups: 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Using his franchise scoring record as something notable is just silly. It's more a testament to the lack of quality players in the organization previous to him than to anything he did.
Which is precisely why he deserves having his number retired by the Canucks. He is the Canucks all-time best player stats wise!

Yes, Bure was more explosive & a more gifted scorer. Yes, Linden was the ultimate Leader & Mr. Clutch. I'm a huge fan of both those guys...believe me. But Naslund was the Canucks most consistent scorer for the longest stretch of time in the history of the franchise. That is fact...& that is easily notable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
As noted above, his scoring records will not last for long. He doesn't hold any Canucks single season records. He's a footnote in Canucks history, kind of a sad one, actually. One of those "almost, but not quite" types of players.
The fact that you claim Naslund DIDN'T do anything notable is beyond silly IMO.

- He's the Canucks all time scoring leader

- Canucks all time leader in goals

- He has more all-star game appearances than any Canuck in history (5)

- He's the only Canuck to win the Lester B. Pearson award

- He was an NHL first team all-star 3 times (Bure only managed that once)

- He was named team MVP 5 times (more than any Canuck ever)

- He lead the team in scoring 7 consecutive seasons (Also a Canuck record)

- Hart Trophy Nominee

- Tied for franchise lead in Hat-tricks (with Tanti)

- He was captain of the team for longer than Linden


Seems pretty notable to me.


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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
At least Bure played until he couldn't skate anymore. Linden retired when the team no longer wanted him. Naslund retired because he longer gave a damn. That's a great message to send.
Absolute nonsense.

Bure left Vancouver under a cloud of negativity, & also left a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth. Allegedly he demanded out of Vancouver all together. So if any of those 3 sent a bad message - it was him.

As for Naslund, he was not re-signed by the Canucks after Gillis took over. He didn't quit on the Canucks by any means. The Canucks didn't want HIM. (Just like Linden!)

Only difference, Naslund played 1 final season In New York before retiring.

Bottom line...I'm not sure what else to say, other than "I respectfully disagree with your stance".


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06-21-2010, 10:53 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Meganuck View Post
They dont retire numbers, they honor them.
The Maple Leafs however do have two retired numbers but due to special circumstances:

Ace Bailey #6 (Career ended by the Eddie Shore hit - Bailey asked it be "un-retired" and given to Ron Ellis but it has subsequently been "re-retired".)

Bashing Bill Barilko #5 (lost in a plane crash after scoring the Cup winning goal in OT in 1951 and his body was not found until 1962)

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06-21-2010, 11:03 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The Maple Leafs however do have two retired numbers but due to special circumstances:

Ace Bailey #6 (Career ended by the Eddie Shore hit - Bailey asked it be "un-retired" and given to Ron Ellis but it has subsequently been "re-retired".)

Bashing Bill Barilko #5 (lost in a plane crash after scoring the Cup winning goal in OT in 1951 and his body was not found until 1962)
Interesting. Never was aware of that.

I guess you really were a Leafs fan before!

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06-21-2010, 11:45 PM
  #30
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Found this on ***********

http://edlerstatesman.wordpress.com/...-hall-of-fame/

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06-22-2010, 12:29 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CaribbeanCanuck View Post
So what? He beat out 2 guys that have their numbers retired.

And by saying that, you're inferring that Linden wasn't a great player. Hmmm?



I acknowledged that with Linden in my earlier post. What Linden (and to a lesser extent - Smyl) did above & beyond Naslund besides their stats, is off-set by what Naslund did above & beyond them scoring wise.
That's your opinion but if you're going to argue that Naslund should be honored because of his stats it sets a brutally low bar for now and the future.


Quote:
Right off the bat without even doing any fact checking - I know you're wrong.

Where's The Oilers on that list of the supposed 'Only' teams to have retired their scoring leaders # since 1970? Mr. Gretzky is a blazingly obvious omission from that list.

Also, where's Sakic with Colorado/Quebec?

There may be more - those are just off the top of my head.

And FYI, who cares when the franchise came into the league? For example, the Kings came into the league in 1967, and they retired their leading scorers number (Dionne)?

Also Neal Broten with the North Stars? (796 points as a North Star - which is almost on par with Naslund FYI).

Bernie Federko with STL?

How does the fact that those franchises came into the league three years prior to the Canucks have any bearing on whether Naslund did enough as a Canuck to be worthy of having his # retired by the Canucks?

And you also failed to factor in players that are currently their team's all time scoring leaders, who are also still CURRENTLY playing. (off the top of my head Iginla in Calgary / Lecavalier in Tampa / Elias in NJ) . They're all the franchise leading scorers for their respective teams, but the franchise can't exactly retire their number while they're still playing!? I'm fairly certain those 3 players mentioned would have their numbers retired once they hang up the skates.
Great job. If you know so much, why don't you do the bloody research? Even at the lowest bar you can find, Naslund still falls below it.


Quote:
Linden & Smyl combined scoring records: 0

Linden & Smyl combined MVP awards: 0

Linden & Smyl combined Stanley Cups: 0
Still on this? Broken record already.

Quote:
Which is precisely why he deserves having his number retired by the Canucks. He is the Canucks all-time best player stats wise!
He was the best player who ever played for the Canucks? No. He was the pretty good player who played a long time for the Canucks. Big difference.

Quote:
Yes, Bure was more explosive & a more gifted scorer. Yes, Linden was the ultimate Leader & Mr. Clutch. I'm a huge fan of both those guys...believe me. But Naslund was the Canucks most consistent scorer for the longest stretch of time in the history of the franchise. That is fact...& that is easily notable.

The fact that you claim Naslund DIDN'T do anything notable is beyond silly IMO.

- He's the Canucks all time scoring leader

- Canucks all time leader in goals

- He has more all-star game appearances than any Canuck in history (5)

- He's the only Canuck to win the Lester B. Pearson award

- He was an NHL first team all-star 3 times (Bure only managed that once)

- He was named team MVP 5 times (more than any Canuck ever)

- He lead the team in scoring 7 consecutive seasons (Also a Canuck record)

- Hart Trophy Nominee

- Tied for franchise lead in Hat-tricks (with Tanti)

- He was captain of the team for longer than Linden


Seems pretty notable to me.
And how are they managing to keep this amazing individual out of the hall of fame?

Naslund was a big fish in a small pond, but in the bigger ponds around the world, he's not notable. Not even in his own country. Vancouver is getting to be a bigger pond.

Quote:
Absolute nonsense.

Bure left Vancouver under a cloud of negativity, & also left a lot of fans with a bad taste in their mouth. Allegedly he demanded out of Vancouver all together. So if any of those 3 sent a bad message - it was him.

As for Naslund, he was not re-signed by the Canucks after Gillis took over. He didn't quit on the Canucks by any means. The Canucks didn't want HIM. (Just like Linden!)

Only difference, Naslund played 1 final season In New York before retiring.

Bottom line...I'm not sure what else to say, other than "I respectfully disagree with your stance".
Bure left on less than stellar terms. No question. But at least he didn't blame others for his own failings. Naslund trash talked Vigneault on the way out of town, when he was the biggest problem with the team the previous season. Then when reality knocked in NY, he quit with a full year left on his contract. He spent the last 3 years of his career as an anchor around the necks of his respective teams. You could never say that about Bure or Linden.

I honestly don't understand the Naslund fanboyism. He was a good player. But he certainly did not have very good leadership qualities. And he flaked out big time.

I'm pretty indifferent to whether they honor him or whatever. But it's a testament to the mediocrity of this franchise if they do. As I said, a footnote in the team's history.

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06-22-2010, 12:44 AM
  #32
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Bure Nieuwendky and Gilmour IMO?


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06-22-2010, 03:33 AM
  #33
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Bure Nieuwendky and Gilmour IMO?
I have a bad feeling that Bure gets omitted again. Old boys club and all. And I cant stand it when Ferraro says he doesnt deserve to be in the HOF.

EDIT: Will they use Gilmour's mugshot photo for the induction ceremony?


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06-22-2010, 05:54 AM
  #34
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Mark Messier: the biggest troll to put on a canuck jersey

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06-22-2010, 11:03 AM
  #35
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Hard to argue that Bure's number shouldn't be retired if he makes the HOF.

Not just an honoring ceremony either. Full retirement. He was drafted by the Canucks and spent most of his career in a Vancouver jersey.

I guess that means that they'll have to put Naslund up there as well, though he was not at the same level. Or maybe they can retire his jersey when he makes the HOF (haha).
Naslund was arguably the best player in the game for 3 years. He has probably the third best season in Canucks history and has a pearson.

But people will complain that he couldn't get a team backstopped by Cloutier past the 2nd round.

I say honour them both, but thats it.

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06-22-2010, 11:44 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CaribbeanCanuck View Post
IMO...If Naslund's 19 is not retired, it's a huge black-mark on the Canucks franchise.
Naslund removed himself from the jersey retirement discussion when he threw this team under the bus after he signed with the Rangers. Whined about Vigneault's defensive system, and generally played completely emotionless his last few seasons.

Jersey retirement should be based on more than just offensive production, it should only go to players that were offensive leaders and showed devout loyalty to the team and the community.

Linden and Smyl qualify based on that criteria, Bure and Naslund do not.

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06-22-2010, 12:51 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Passthedonuts View Post
Naslund removed himself from the jersey retirement discussion when he threw this team under the bus after he signed with the Rangers. Whined about Vigneault's defensive system, and generally played completely emotionless his last few seasons.

Jersey retirement should be based on more than just offensive production, it should only go to players that were offensive leaders and showed devout loyalty to the team and the community.

Linden and Smyl qualify based on that criteria, Bure and Naslund do not.
Threw them under the bus?

His services were no longer wanted in Vancouver, so he signed somewhere else?! How can you hate on a guy for that? It's not like he said "%$&# you Vancouver...I'm going to NYC!". Gillis wanted to go in a new direction when he came in...so Naslund had a choice to either hang em' up, or sign elsewhere. Not sure how that's throwing the Canucks under the bus.

Naslund was also very loyal to Vancouver, and did tons of charitable work in & around the city for the duration of his captaincy (which was longer than Linden's). It's funny how quickly people seem to forget. That combined with his stats & franchise records) make it a no-brainer for the Canucks to retire his number IMO.

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06-22-2010, 01:10 PM
  #38
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Shouldnt it have been announced by now about who's going to be inducted?

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06-22-2010, 02:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by CaribbeanCanuck View Post
Threw them under the bus?

His services were no longer wanted in Vancouver, so he signed somewhere else?! How can you hate on a guy for that? It's not like he said "%$&# you Vancouver...I'm going to NYC!". Gillis wanted to go in a new direction when he came in...so Naslund had a choice to either hang em' up, or sign elsewhere. Not sure how that's throwing the Canucks under the bus.

Naslund was also very loyal to Vancouver, and did tons of charitable work in & around the city for the duration of his captaincy (which was longer than Linden's). It's funny how quickly people seem to forget. That combined with his stats & franchise records) make it a no-brainer for the Canucks to retire his number IMO.
So here's a q:

Henrik Sedin has already made a very large charitable contribution, owns the Canucks single season record, and should he finish his contract here (likely given his NTC) will be the franchise scoring leader.

So should he get his number retired?

What about Ohlund?

Luongo will likely own all the goaltending records. Also as captain, he's taken the team to the second round of the playoffs both years, something that Naslund could only do twice in his seasons as captain. He's been nominated for the Hart trophy and Vezina. Retire his jersey?

It's not a question of whether Naslund did some good things - I'm in full agreement. But they weren't that outstanding, compared to players we currently have and will likely have in the future. He was not a dominant player. He was the best thing the team had for a few years, but not that many.

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06-22-2010, 02:27 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
So here's a q:

Henrik Sedin has already made a very large charitable contribution, owns the Canucks single season record, and should he finish his contract here (likely given his NTC) will be the franchise scoring leader.

So should he get his number retired?

What about Ohlund?

Luongo will likely own all the goaltending records. Also as captain, he's taken the team to the second round of the playoffs both years, something that Naslund could only do twice in his seasons as captain. He's been nominated for the Hart trophy and Vezina. Retire his jersey?

It's not a question of whether Naslund did some good things - I'm in full agreement. But they weren't that outstanding, compared to players we currently have and will likely have in the future. He was not a dominant player. He was the best thing the team had for a few years, but not that many.
He absolutely was. Unfortuantely it didn't last longer than 3-4 seasons.

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06-22-2010, 02:28 PM
  #41
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Hall of Fame inductees: Dino Ciccarelli, Cammi Granato, Angela James elected as players. Jimmy Devellano and Daryl “Doc” Seaman as builders.

Ciccarelli is the only NHLer. Really?

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06-22-2010, 02:31 PM
  #42
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Hall of Fame inductees: Dino Ciccarelli, Cammi Granato, Angela James elected as players. Jimmy Devellano and Daryl “Doc” Seaman as builders.

Ciccarelli is the only NHLer. Really?

No Pat Burns either, I thought he deserves it.

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06-22-2010, 02:33 PM
  #43
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<sigh> No room for Bure or Burns... disappointing.

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06-22-2010, 02:40 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
So here's a q:

Henrik Sedin has already made a very large charitable contribution, owns the Canucks single season record, and should he finish his contract here (likely given his NTC) will be the franchise scoring leader.

So should he get his number retired?
If it plays out that Henrik does break Nazzy's records - quite possibly. Henrik not being the team captain might take him down a notch for some people, but if he continues to do what he did this past season - then ya, I'd say he probably would deserve it. It would depend on a lot of factors that have yet to be determined though.

Obviously it'll be a good number of years until Hank retires, & lots can happen between now & then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
What about Ohlund?
No. Great player, love the guy - but not enough for a jersey retirement IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Luongo will likely own all the goaltending records. Also as captain, he's taken the team to the second round of the playoffs both years, something that Naslund could only do twice in his seasons as captain. He's been nominated for the Hart trophy and Vezina. Retire his jersey?
Not at this point...not even close. But, if he ends up breaking multiple franchise records, winning major NHL hardware, and being one of the top players in the league for multiple seasons - potentially.

As for Naslund never captaining his team to playoff glory - neither did Dale Hawerchuk, Marcell Dionne, Adam Oates, Mike Gartner etc.

There have been numerous great players that have never won anything - but that doesn't take away from the fact that they're amazing hockey players that are deserving of being honoured. In the end, hockey is a team game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
It's not a question of whether Naslund did some good things - I'm in full agreement. But they weren't that outstanding, compared to players we currently have and will likely have in the future. He was not a dominant player. He was the best thing the team had for a few years, but not that many.
That's the big point we disagree on. He WAS a dominant player. He didn't dominate the league for years & years, but after Bure - he was the most 'dominant' Canuck of all time. In his prime, Naslund was a top 10 player in the NHL for multiple seasons, and top 5 (maybe even top 3) for a few of those. Also, it's not often a 'non-dominant' player is voted as the league MVP by their peers, as was the case when Naslund won the Pearson award.

We can debate this til the cows come home, but let's just agree to disagree...ok?

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06-22-2010, 02:41 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Hall of Fame inductees: Dino Ciccarelli, Cammi Granato, Angela James elected as players. Jimmy Devellano and Daryl “Doc” Seaman as builders.

Ciccarelli is the only NHLer. Really?
Ciccarelli deserves to be there but Cammi Granato and Angela James before Lindros and Bure

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06-22-2010, 02:42 PM
  #46
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What a joke. 2 chicks? Really?

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06-22-2010, 02:46 PM
  #47
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Now what is Ray Ferraro going to say?

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06-22-2010, 03:53 PM
  #48
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Now what is Ray Ferraro going to say?
Congratulations. Now get me a sandwich.

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06-22-2010, 03:57 PM
  #49
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Ciccarelli deserves to be there but Cammi Granato and Angela James before Lindros and Bure
Not only that, but if you're going to include female hockey players I don't see how you can justify keeping out international stars and builders like Bobrov, Sulogubov, Firsov, Mikhailov, Kharlamov, Petrov, Makarov, Tarasov, Vasiliev, Lutchenko, Starshinov, Hlinka, Suchy, etc.

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06-22-2010, 04:33 PM
  #50
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Women go in separately from men, that's why.

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