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Ovechkin on all time LWs

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06-21-2010, 03:57 PM
  #1
WingsFan95
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Ovechkin on all time LWs

Hello there everybody.

Just thinking how high is Ovechkin on all time LWs?

I am doing an all time draft right now with 10 other people and I picked up Ovechkin with my 7th pick at 73.

It did seem early but I needed a LW and could not think of any LW higher that was available.

It's one of those positions that doesn't get much star appeal it seems.

As far as I know Ovechkin is one of few LWs to win the Hart twice.

Also considering the NHL Awards are just 2 days away it would be nice to speculate what it would mean if Ovechkin won 3 Hart Trophies.

Some obvious guys ahead would be Bobby Hull and Robitaille, but no other glaring ones unless you start counting Kharlamov, etc.

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06-21-2010, 04:05 PM
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jkrx
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I can mention some names but Im not gonna rank em just throw them out there

Frank Mahovlich
Ted Lindsay
Kevin Stevens
Bill Barber
John Bucyk
Toe Blake
Brendan Shanahan
Vyacheslav Kozlov
Dickie Moore
Doug Bentley

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06-21-2010, 04:21 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I can mention some names but Im not gonna rank em just throw them out there

Frank Mahovlich
Ted Lindsay
Kevin Stevens
Bill Barber
John Bucyk
Toe Blake
Brendan Shanahan
Vyacheslav Kozlov
Dickie Moore
Doug Bentley
- Mahovlich and Lindsay have definitely had better careers at this point. Throw in Kharlamov and of course Hull and you have the only four LWs who are absolutely ahead of Ovechkin.

- At this point, Bucyk, Blake, Moore, Bentley, along with Joliat, Firsov, Denneny, and Jackson would have to be in that "debatable" category.

- Shanahan and Barber are a clear step behind already. Neither would ever be a Hart threat.

- Kevin Stevens would be a clear 2-3 steps behind those two.

- Kozlov must be on this list by accident. I doubt he's even a top-500 player of all-time. We are 800 picks into ATD2010 and he's not yet selected. he's on my radar but likely not for about 100 more picks.

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06-21-2010, 05:16 PM
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It's a bit unfair to Ovechkin to start comparing careers already. However, in terms of NHL peak performance, only Hull and *maybe* Lindsay have outdone Ovechkin.

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06-21-2010, 06:18 PM
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jkrx
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- Mahovlich and Lindsay have definitely had better careers at this point. Throw in Kharlamov and of course Hull and you have the only four LWs who are absolutely ahead of Ovechkin.

- At this point, Bucyk, Blake, Moore, Bentley, along with Joliat, Firsov, Denneny, and Jackson would have to be in that "debatable" category.

- Shanahan and Barber are a clear step behind already. Neither would ever be a Hart threat.

- Kevin Stevens would be a clear 2-3 steps behind those two.

- Kozlov must be on this list by accident. I doubt he's even a top-500 player of all-time. We are 800 picks into ATD2010 and he's not yet selected. he's on my radar but likely not for about 100 more picks.
I was just throwing names of left wingers out there. There were no intention of ranking anyone I couldve just as easily said Shayne Corson, Tikkanen or Eddie Shack.

Shanahan and Barber played different games though. Not many power forwards have been pure hart candidates excepts for the extraordinaries like Howe or Messier.

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06-22-2010, 12:02 PM
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The list is thin, and most certainly does NOT include Luc Robitaille.

To me it's:

Hull
Lindsay
Messier (if you count him)
Mahovlich
Moore
Kharlamov
Ovechkin

And I think he's one or two more seasons away from passing Kharlamov and Moore. He won't win the Hart this year, but three consecutive Harts would be very hard to argue against for Kharlamov supporters.

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06-22-2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I was just throwing names of left wingers out there. There were no intention of ranking anyone I couldve just as easily said Shayne Corson, Tikkanen or Eddie Shack.

Shanahan and Barber played different games though. Not many power forwards have been pure hart candidates excepts for the extraordinaries like Howe or Messier.
And Ovechkin. That's the thing.

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06-22-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
The list is thin, and most certainly does NOT include Luc Robitaille.

To me it's:

Hull
Lindsay
Messier (if you count him)
Mahovlich
Moore
Kharlamov
Ovechkin

And I think he's one or two more seasons away from passing Kharlamov and Moore. He won't win the Hart this year, but three consecutive Harts would be very hard to argue against for Kharlamov supporters.
What's the hate with Lucky Luc?

I think his career is exceptional, I mean he is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Had 8 consecutive 40 goal seasons, including three 50 goal seasons and former 63 goal season record for LW.

Career wise he's one of a very select club of over 600 goals and 1,394 points.

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06-22-2010, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 99wasnotthebest View Post
What's the hate with Lucky Luc?

I think his career is exceptional, I mean he is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Had 8 consecutive 40 goal seasons, including three 50 goal seasons and former 63 goal season record for LW.

Career wise he's one of a very select club of over 600 goals and 1,394 points.
I didn't mean to sound like I was hating on him. He's just not in Ovechkin's league. Consecutive Hart trophies is just silly. Robitaille was, in comparison, a non-factor in Hart voting. He has those FAST, but Ovechkin is compiling them at the same rate; and I actually think Ovechkin has had more competition than Robitaille. The numbers are nice, but a measly Calder just doesn't do it.

In his best season statistically, he was 13 goals behind Mogilny and Selanne, the same number of goals Ovechkin lead the league with in his best statistical season. That year, only Thornton and Datsyuk had more assists than Ovechkin had goals. He also lead the league in points that year, something Robitaille was never close to doing.

Robitaille's numbers are nice, but there really is no argument that he was a better player, or really IMO in the same stratosphere as Ovechkin.

And I'd like to think that I'm not someone with a modern bias.

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06-22-2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
I didn't mean to sound like I was hating on him. He's just not in Ovechkin's league. Consecutive Hart trophies is just silly. Robitaille was, in comparison, a non-factor in Hart voting. He has those FAST, but Ovechkin is compiling them at the same rate; and I actually think Ovechkin has had more competition than Robitaille. The numbers are nice, but a measly Calder just doesn't do it.

In his best season statistically, he was 13 goals behind Mogilny and Selanne, the same number of goals Ovechkin lead the league with in his best statistical season. That year, only Thornton and Datsyuk had more assists than Ovechkin had goals. He also lead the league in points that year, something Robitaille was never close to doing.

Robitaille's numbers are nice, but there really is no argument that he was a better player, or really IMO in the same stratosphere as Ovechkin.

And I'd like to think that I'm not someone with a modern bias.
i don't think even mrs. robitaille would argue that luc was a better player than ovechkin. but the point stands that what robitaille did-- consistently scoring 45+ goals, finishing in the top 10 in goals, and being one of the two best LWs in the game through the first eight years of his career, in addition to flirting with 40 goals in his 30s in the DPE-- has a legitimate case over what ovechkin has done to date. luc's consistency is very impressive: he's not ray bourque, but he's certainly not mike gartner either.

personally, i could probably go either way, though ovechkin's first fives years vs. robitaille's career almost certainly won't matter in a couple of years, maybe even as early as ovechkin hitting 300 career goals.

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06-23-2010, 09:59 AM
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The only left wing in History who even compares to Ovechkin is Bobby Hull...

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06-23-2010, 11:31 AM
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Ovy has risen very far, very fast on the list of all-time left wings.

Hull
Lindsay
Kharlamov
Mahovlich
Ovechkin

Before the start of this season I still had Dickie Moore ahead of Ovechkin, but at this point I think it is time for Ovy to move ahead of him.

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06-23-2010, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan87 View Post
The only left wing in History who even compares to Ovechkin is Bobby Hull...
Yes, this.

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06-23-2010, 02:42 PM
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And Ovechkin. That's the thing.
Ovechkin isnt a power forward in the sense Shanahan was.

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06-23-2010, 03:30 PM
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He will surely end up as the best LW of all time (though he is a poor team-player and way too selfish), second best at worst. He is already fourth best in my book.

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06-23-2010, 03:46 PM
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He will surely end up as the best LW of all time (though he is a poor team-player and way too selfish), second best at worst. He is already fourth best in my book.
Way too early to say such a thing.

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06-23-2010, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lextune View Post
Way too early to say such a thing.
I guess we both agree onthis atleast.

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06-23-2010, 06:05 PM
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I agree with a lot of the posts, that basically only Hull, Lindsay, Kharlamov and Mahovlich can be put ahead of him for sure. It's hard to compare him with guys because he's only been in the league for 5 years, but, like seventies said, I think there's a few guys like Moore, Denneny, Bentley, Jackson, etc who are in the debatable category.

His first five years are very impressive though, and I don't think any of the debatable guys could have been considered a consensus top 2 player in the world for what is now a three year run and counting. Provided he stays healthy and has a typical career arc, I could see him passing Lindsay to be the second best behind Hull. He could possibly pass Hull as well, but I have a hard time projecting anyone into top-10 status, especially considering Hull is ranked by some as high as 5th.

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06-23-2010, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I agree with a lot of the posts, that basically only Hull, Lindsay, Kharlamov and Mahovlich can be put ahead of him for sure. It's hard to compare him with guys because he's only been in the league for 5 years, but, like seventies said, I think there's a few guys like Moore, Denneny, Bentley, Jackson, etc who are in the debatable category.

His first five years are very impressive though, and I don't think any of the debatable guys could have been considered a consensus top 2 player in the world for what is now a three year run and counting. Provided he stays healthy and has a typical career arc, I could see him passing Lindsay to be the second best behind Hull. He could possibly pass Hull as well, but I have a hard time projecting anyone into top-10 status, especially considering Hull is ranked by some as high as 5th.
If he has a typical career mark, Ovechkin will pass Lindsay for #2 all time LW. He already has a better peak than Lindsay did. If AO doesn't pass Lindsay, he will be a disappointment. Reaching the level of a Bobby Hull will be really tough, but is possible. I wouldn't project it though.

Agree with most that Ovechkin is behind Hull, Lindsay, Kharlamov, and Mahovlich at the moment, though.

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06-23-2010, 09:02 PM
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If he has a typical career mark, Ovechkin will pass Lindsay for #2 all time LW. He already has a better peak than Lindsay did. If AO doesn't pass Lindsay, he will be a disappointment. Reaching the level of a Bobby Hull will be really tough, but is possible. I wouldn't project it though.

Agree with most that Ovechkin is behind Hull, Lindsay, Kharlamov, and Mahovlich at the moment, though.
I think there is a good chance he could surpass Bobby Hull. BUT he has to keep up this productivity for another 12 years atleast win the cup and those individual trophies. Ofcourse it will be tough but Ovechkin should be the man to pull it off.

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06-23-2010, 09:51 PM
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Adjustments

Will be interesting to see what adjustments the Capitals make as a team and what adjustments Ovechkin makes as a player during the 2010-11 season.

Then a clearer picture will emerge.

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06-23-2010, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
He will surely end up as the best LW of all time (though he is a poor team-player and way too selfish), second best at worst. He is already fourth best in my book.
Yeah his career arc is pretty absurd for a LW. Hell, there aren't many players at any position that can measure up to his first 5 years.

And your comment about his team-play and selfishness is equally as absurd

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06-23-2010, 10:47 PM
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Brian Propp, Steve Shutt and Rick MacLeish... not ahead of OV but good left wingers.

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06-23-2010, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lextune View Post
Ovy has risen very far, very fast on the list of all-time left wings.

Hull
Lindsay
Kharlamov
Mahovlich
Ovechkin

Before the start of this season I still had Dickie Moore ahead of Ovechkin, but at this point I think it is time for Ovy to move ahead of him.
What's your reasoning behind this? Moore has an exceptionally playoff resume, and all Ovechkin did this season was add a blemish to his.

I think we're at the point now where we know how dominant Ovechkin is in the regular season, we've seen it for a few years now. But until he has some playoff success, continuing to put up gaudy scoring totals in the regular season doesn't really do a lot to add to his legacy IMO. I've never really been of the school of thought that winning one more award or AST suddenly puts one player in front of another at that specific moment (ex: "If Lidstrom wins one more Norris, he'll be ahead of Potvin on my list" line of thinking).

I think Ovechkin's at a bit of a crossroads right now. As C1958 suggests, lets see what tweaks he can make to his game to be successful in the post season. I don't know if I'd say the Habs exposed him this spring, but the individuality and predictability of his game began to show as that series went on. All the talent and Hart trophies in the world won't put him past the likes of Moore, Lindsay, and Mahovlich if he can't make the subtle adjustments necessary to win when it counts.

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06-23-2010, 11:23 PM
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What's your reasoning behind this? Moore has an exceptionally playoff resume, and all Ovechkin did this season was add a blemish to his.

I think we're at the point now where we know how dominant Ovechkin is in the regular season, we've seen it for a few years now. But until he has some playoff success, continuing to put up gaudy scoring totals in the regular season doesn't really do a lot to add to his legacy IMO. I've never really been of the school of thought that winning one more award or AST suddenly puts one player in front of another at that specific moment (ex: "If Lidstrom wins one more Norris, he'll be ahead of Potvin on my list" line of thinking).

I think Ovechkin's at a bit of a crossroads right now. As C1958 suggests, lets see what tweaks he can make to his game to be successful in the post season. I don't know if I'd say the Habs exposed him this spring, but the individuality and predictability of his game began to show as that series went on. All the talent and Hart trophies in the world won't put him past the likes of Moore, Lindsay, and Mahovlich if he can't make the subtle adjustments necessary to win when it counts.
It's funny that Ovechkin scored 10 points in 7 playoff games and it still counts as a "blemish."

Crosby did much worse against Montreal, and he gets off scott-free. Montreal had the perfect system to neutralize an individual talent if he wasn't getting help from his teammates, which neither Crosby nor Ovechkin was.

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