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Gretzky's 163 assists in 1985-86 Will Never Be Broken

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Old
06-27-2010, 02:19 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Modern technique is far superior to the stand-up style, even with the old equipment. It's about playing percentages, and being proactive instead of reactive. Check out the pads Roy, Belfour, Hasek, etc were wearing in the early 90's. Same as everyone else was. But it's no coincidence that it was those guys winning every Vezina trophy.

The big pads came later because the new style allowed for it, not the other way around.
I am not saying the technique is a better way to stop the puck, simply commenting on people who say the goalies were crap before the butterfly style became popular. Oh, when you look at the three you mentioned, they could and did also make stops standing up and all three would have been successful before the butterfly due to athleticism, too many of today's goalies would not.

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06-27-2010, 02:54 PM
  #27
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If there is a record that will never be equaled, it is a defenseman winning the scoring title. (let alone twice) Because that acheivement is not based on whether the game is in a high scoring era or not, it's just based on a defenseman out scoring every forward in the league in the same year and under the same conditions.

When I think of it, it's still hard to believe it happened

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06-27-2010, 03:01 PM
  #28
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Thats what I came here to say. I think the most unbreakable records would be the points and goals by a defenseman.

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06-27-2010, 03:17 PM
  #29
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A lot of rule changes need to happen before this one or 50 in 39 gets broken. Here is a start:
bigger nets
smaller goal equipment
having to serve the full 2 mins of a minor penalty
no touch icing - games will be longer with more action rather than waiting seconds for dmen to touch the puck

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06-27-2010, 03:40 PM
  #30
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I actually think Gretzkys total assists might be harder than his single season.

a player might have one great season where everything falls in place but Gretzky just did it so many times.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...der_by=assists

you would need to average 100 assists for 20 years and considering only two players apart from Gretzky have ever topped that (Lemieux and Orr), and they only did it once each, I think that will be very hard.

Iīd like to add that I donīt think you should ever say never. we often have a very limited view of history. hockey could be played for thousand of years and to think we have already seen the high points in scoring is naive. that being said I donīt think we will see many of these records beaten in my lifetime.

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06-27-2010, 03:49 PM
  #31
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http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000411986.html

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06-27-2010, 04:56 PM
  #32
Jack Donaghy
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I doubt 92 goals in one season will be broken, either.

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06-27-2010, 05:46 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by thejickler View Post
I doubt 92 goals in one season will be broken, either.
Much easier in my opinion though.

Brett hit 86 and looked like he could have had 100 that year, if not for a few nights with hot goalies.

No one has ever come even remotely close to 163.

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06-27-2010, 06:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by lextune View Post
Much easier in my opinion though.

Brett hit 86 and looked like he could have had 100 that year, if not for a few nights with hot goalies.

No one has ever come even remotely close to 163.
Gretzky came close in 1983-84 87 goals in 74 games
Mario came close in 1988-89 85 goals in 76 games
Brett came close in 1990-91 86 goals in 78 games

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06-27-2010, 08:04 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BobbyAwe View Post
If there is a record that will never be equaled, it is a defenseman winning the scoring title. (let alone twice) Because that acheivement is not based on whether the game is in a high scoring era or not, it's just based on a defenseman out scoring every forward in the league in the same year and under the same conditions.

When I think of it, it's still hard to believe it happened
Quote:
Originally Posted by mco543 View Post
Thats what I came here to say. I think the most unbreakable records would be the points and goals by a defenseman.
coffey came within a point of the points record, and beat orr's goals record. and he came within striking distance of the assists mark.

for me, the most unrepeatable achievement combines bobbyawe's with the original poster's: little in hockey could be more inconceivable than another defenseman setting the single-season assist record, let alone destroying it like orr did. of course, it is even harder now that gretzky has raised the bar so unfathomably high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Modern technique is far superior to the stand-up style, even with the old equipment. It's about playing percentages, and being proactive instead of reactive. You take away the easy shot (along the ice), and make the shooter beat you with a tougher shot. Check out the pads Roy, Belfour, Hasek, etc were wearing in the early 90's. Same as everyone else was. But it's no coincidence that it was those guys winning every Vezina trophy.

The big pads came later because the new style allowed for it, not the other way around.
goaltending is certainly more efficient today than it was in the 80s. but i will always refuse the suggestion that superstar x from the 1970s or 80s wouldn't figure out a way to score on today's goalies (i'm not suggesting that you are saying this, arrbez).

for those that advocate this position, do you really think mark messier would be shooting what would now be considered low-percentage wrist shots from deep on the off wing every time like he did in his prime? or would he adapt to modern goaltending and find some more advantageous ways to shoot the puck?

if jonathan cheechoo could find a way to score 56 goals against today's goalies, i think the superstars of yesteryear would fare alright.

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06-27-2010, 08:38 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by FASTHANDS View Post
Gretzky came close in 1983-84 87 goals in 74 games
Mario came close in 1988-89 85 goals in 76 games
Brett came close in 1990-91 86 goals in 78 games
Yes, but that was all during the same general period, the high-scoring era that stretched from 1970-1996 saw the record book completely rewritten several times over but in the last fifteen years have we seen any record setting performances?

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06-27-2010, 08:47 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Forsberg4ever View Post
Yes, but that was all during the same general period, the high-scoring era that stretched from 1970-1996 saw the record book completely rewritten several times over but in the last fifteen years have we seen any record setting performances?
It makes you ask the question if or when another offensive era will come back.

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06-27-2010, 09:21 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by FASTHANDS View Post
It makes you ask the question if or when another offensive era will come back.
Only if they drastically change the rules (increased net size?) or rapidly expand the league (say from 30 to 45 teams in a period of about 5 years).

There is too much science and systemization behind the game for it to be that high scoring again.

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06-27-2010, 11:08 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
ok this makes sense

the 80s also boosted his stats, plus goalies were crap
But like others have said, the next closest for assists was Mario Lemieux, who was 70 behind him. Lemieux was playing against the same teams, in the same season, with the same goaltending, and he was still 70 back. And that was Lemieux - one of the greatest players of all time. Lemieux's best ever for assists is 114 - that number alone would have won the scoring race this year! And despite that, his best season for assists is 49 back of the record. Even Gretzky never broke 140 again - his next highest was only 135.

Point is, inflated or not, crap goalies or not, no one else in that era was even close. And if no one in that era, with inflated scoring and "crap goalies" (I personally don't agree, but your words) was close, then obviously no one today is going to come close with better goalies and lower scoring.

This thread isn't called "were Gretzky's assists inflated because of crap goalies and 80's scoring?" its called "Gretzky's 163 assists in 1985-86 will never be broken." And I don't like to say never, but this is one that will last a long time.

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Old
06-28-2010, 12:06 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Only if they drastically change the rules (increased net size?) or rapidly expand the league (say from 30 to 45 teams in a period of about 5 years).

There is too much science and systemization behind the game for it to be that high scoring again.
i have often wondered whether it would be possible for the equivalent of a jacques lemaire to come along, only to pioneer an offensive system and revolutionize coaching. could that raise scoring back to 80s or early 90s levels?

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07-04-2010, 02:11 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Modern technique is far superior to the stand-up style, even with the old equipment. It's about playing percentages, and being proactive instead of reactive. You take away the easy shot (along the ice), and make the shooter beat you with a tougher shot. Check out the pads Roy, Belfour, Hasek, etc were wearing in the early 90's. Same as everyone else was. But it's no coincidence that it was those guys winning every Vezina trophy.

The big pads came later because the new style allowed for it, not the other way around.
Even if they went back to the old equipment, ie. leather pads that absorbed moisture opposed to the lightweight pads of today that weigh the same, literally nothing all game long the game has changed way too much for many records ever to be broken.

Captain Video, Roger Nielson has changed the way teams prepare and play defensively and today everyone blocks shots not the few that did in the past.

Given the current state of the game and the incredible ability of guys like Crosby, Malkin and AO, I'd be surprised if we ever see 70 goals or even 140 points again.

Okay AO might score 70 goals one season but the game just doesn't allow for the type of scoring it did in the 1980's and the skill set of players today is at an all time high.

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07-04-2010, 02:15 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by FASTHANDS View Post
Wayne has stated that he believes the 50 goals in 39 games in the 1981-82 season is the record he believes will be the most difficult to break. The closest he came to that mark was 50 in 42 during the 1983-84 season where he had a unreal 153 points in 51 games (61-92).

50 in 39 remains a record that no doubt will be very difficult to break, .
ah, players are lucky to get 50 in an entire season these days.... 50 in 39 will never be broken.....

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07-04-2010, 02:28 PM
  #43
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ah, players are lucky to get 50 in an entire season these days.... 50 in 39 will never be broken.....
Certainly not in this era, and maybe any era. No one may ever get 50 in 42 for that matter.

When Gretzky scored 50 goals in 42 games in the 1983-84 season, he was dissapointed. He stated rather bluntly that 50 in 42 is not 50 in 39. Shows what kind of competitor he was,

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07-05-2010, 01:33 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by FASTHANDS View Post
Certainly not in this era, and maybe any era. No one may ever get 50 in 42 for that matter.

When Gretzky scored 50 goals in 42 games in the 1983-84 season, he was dissapointed. He stated rather bluntly that 50 in 42 is not 50 in 39. Shows what kind of competitor he was,
But Wayne got better that year as it went (equalling his 61 goals in 50 games record), and was actually on pace to beat his 92 goals on the season if he hadn't missed those 6 games with the shoulder injury. I doubt he would have been disappointed with his performance that year had he beaten 92.

That's what's strange about Wayne's records though - it wasn't like he just had that one magic year when everything went right, like we've seen from others. For Gretzky, it was just endless consistancy. If he hadn't had 215, he'd still have the record with 212. If not that, then 208. If not that, 205. He's number 1 with 92 goals, but also number 2 with 87. He's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th in assists... and then 8th as well, tied with Lemieux.

When you look at most other stars, they usually had that 1 year they were just on fire and made it all happen. That isn't to say they weren't great other seasons as well, but there was usually 1 season everyone can point at and say "that was their absolute best - that was him at his greatest." But for Gretzky, it was just every year during his prime. What was his best year? 50 in 39, 212 points, 92 goals? Or does 163 assists and 215 points beat that? What about 205 points including 87 goals but in only 74 games, including records for the highest GPG and PPG of any season ever? His list of accomplishments, both single season and career, are just so staggering sometimes that when you sit down and really look at them, its just overwhelming.

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07-05-2010, 09:45 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
But Wayne got better that year as it went (equalling his 61 goals in 50 games record), and was actually on pace to beat his 92 goals on the season if he hadn't missed those 6 games with the shoulder injury. I doubt he would have been disappointed with his performance that year had he beaten 92.

That's what's strange about Wayne's records though - it wasn't like he just had that one magic year when everything went right, like we've seen from others. For Gretzky, it was just endless consistancy. If he hadn't had 215, he'd still have the record with 212. If not that, then 208. If not that, 205. He's number 1 with 92 goals, but also number 2 with 87. He's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th in assists... and then 8th as well, tied with Lemieux.

When you look at most other stars, they usually had that 1 year they were just on fire and made it all happen. That isn't to say they weren't great other seasons as well, but there was usually 1 season everyone can point at and say "that was their absolute best - that was him at his greatest." But for Gretzky, it was just every year during his prime. What was his best year? 50 in 39, 212 points, 92 goals? Or does 163 assists and 215 points beat that? What about 205 points including 87 goals but in only 74 games, including records for the highest GPG and PPG of any season ever? His list of accomplishments, both single season and career, are just so staggering sometimes that when you sit down and really look at them, its just overwhelming.
They don't call him the Great One for nothing... his accomplishments really were amazing when you think about it for a while. The consistency at that level where only a very few (if any) other players have ever even tread.

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07-05-2010, 11:29 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
But Wayne got better that year as it went (equalling his 61 goals in 50 games record), and was actually on pace to beat his 92 goals on the season if he hadn't missed those 6 games with the shoulder injury. I doubt he would have been disappointed with his performance that year had he beaten 92.

That's what's strange about Wayne's records though - it wasn't like he just had that one magic year when everything went right, like we've seen from others. For Gretzky, it was just endless consistancy. If he hadn't had 215, he'd still have the record with 212. If not that, then 208. If not that, 205. He's number 1 with 92 goals, but also number 2 with 87. He's 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th in assists... and then 8th as well, tied with Lemieux.

When you look at most other stars, they usually had that 1 year they were just on fire and made it all happen. That isn't to say they weren't great other seasons as well, but there was usually 1 season everyone can point at and say "that was their absolute best - that was him at his greatest." But for Gretzky, it was just every year during his prime. What was his best year? 50 in 39, 212 points, 92 goals? Or does 163 assists and 215 points beat that? What about 205 points including 87 goals but in only 74 games, including records for the highest GPG and PPG of any season ever? His list of accomplishments, both single season and career, are just so staggering sometimes that when you sit down and really look at them, its just overwhelming.
His gas tank was never on empty, always on full. From 1979-80 to 1988-89, when you take a look at his numbers, you scratch your head, espicially at the peak years from 82 to 87. The fact that he nearly played every game, every season (with an exception in 88 when he played 64 games) shows his durability (when you throw in Canada Cups)

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Old
07-05-2010, 11:57 AM
  #47
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no one will get 163 POINTS in a season let alone assists.

92 goals in a season
163 assists in a season
50 in 39
215 points in a season
2900+ career points all will not be broken

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07-06-2010, 01:13 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post
no one will get 163 POINTS in a season let alone assists.

92 goals in a season
163 assists in a season
50 in 39
215 points in a season
2900+ career points all will not be broken
You can probably add 50 career hat tricks, fastest to 1000 career points (424 games!), 51 game point streak (averaging 3.0 PPG plus it was from start of season, not mid-season or carrying over from 1 season to another), and his career assists record (still more than anyone else has points) and career playoff points/assists to the list as well.

Some of his records will eventually fall, but that's a good list of ones that will not, unless there are drastic rule changes made.

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07-07-2010, 11:29 AM
  #49
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Someday, someone will come along with the mind and vision of Gretzky, the body of Lindros, and the durability of Howe. He'll be the best player of all time, and he'll break most of Gretzky's records (even if you pro-rate them for era/rule changes, whatever).

I don't expect be alive to see this next hockey god, but maybe we'll all be so lucky. Time has a way of producing legends, but if I were a betting man I'd guess it will be at least another few decades before we see one capable of beating a record like 163 assists. And I wouldn't be the slightest bit shocked if a fortune teller told us that Gretzky will still hold the record 100 years from now.

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07-07-2010, 11:42 AM
  #50
Nazem Gretzky
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Gretzky's records are going to be like Cy Young's records in baseball. Back when pitchers had 40 win seasons, and 40 complete games, etc, and won 400-500 games in their careers. Those records are still alive today, more than 100 years after the fact.

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