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Gretzky's 163 assists in 1985-86 Will Never Be Broken

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Old
07-08-2010, 06:36 PM
  #51
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163 assists is almost impossible to get in a season with a player in a video game... no joke.

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07-09-2010, 04:17 AM
  #52
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163 assists is almost impossible to get in a season with a player in a video game... no joke.
If you play on a realistic difficulty, yea. But as dumb as this sounds, it also shows once again how ridiculous Gretzky's records are. I can't even best them in a virtual world where you can find a way to score consistently. That's how unreachable they are.

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07-26-2010, 08:48 AM
  #53
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Yeah I think it's the most insane one-season record there is in this league.

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07-26-2010, 09:15 AM
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To be fair even the 39 in 50 was a bit of anomaly and why it prolly is one of the hardest to break.
Gretzky went into game 39 with 45 in 38 and was "on pace" to do it in 42-43 games.
Instead he decided to score 5 in that game.

It's up there with the 76 goal rookie record imo.

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07-26-2010, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
To be fair even the 39 in 50 was a bit of anomaly and why it prolly is one of the hardest to break.
Gretzky went into game 39 with 45 in 38 and was "on pace" to do it in 42-43 games.
Instead he decided to score 5 in that game.

It's up there with the 76 goal rookie record imo.
I think an elite scorer with a anormal and somewhat long hot strike COULD beat the 39 in 50 with every bounce going his way.Dont think it will happen with the present cast but who knows.As for the 163 assists , i can't see anybody beating that , we'll need more talented players in this league if you just want to get close to it.I think the upper echelon talent is kind of weak in this league as of now.

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07-26-2010, 03:10 PM
  #56
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I think an elite scorer with a anormal and somewhat long hot strike COULD beat the 39 in 50 with every bounce going his way.Dont think it will happen with the present cast but who knows.As for the 163 assists , i can't see anybody beating that , we'll need more talented players in this league if you just want to get close to it.I think the upper echelon talent is kind of weak in this league as of now.
2.04 assists a game is more then most people average for points. Considering the second most ever in a season is 28 behind the mark it's hard to imagine it being broken.

If someone was to do it, they would have to be playing on a run and gun team in an offensive era. Edmonton scored 426 goals that season, second most ever behind their 446. I don't see it happening.

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07-26-2010, 04:07 PM
  #57
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we'll need more talented players in this league if you just want to get close to it.I think the upper echelon talent is kind of weak in this league as of now.
I think there's more elite talent than ever. Nobody as good as Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux, but there's more players coming from more countries that have better developed hockey programs... there's just simply more talent. I don't see how you can make the argument that isn't the most talent-laden era ever. We've even got a Slovenian star.

To get an environment where Crosby or Ovechkin can make a run at any records, we need more bottom-tier players and bad teams. Large scale expansion, dilute the league and let the elite players go to town and exploit inferior players. Rapid expansion always coincides with more offense. Dilution of the talent pool during the WW2 era meant more offense and broken records.

Ovechkin in particular could make a serious run at 92 goals if the league went through some changes. Brett Hull made a serious run. Even Cam Neely scored 50 in 44.

But 163 assists is the one that is going to be the hardest single-season offensive record to break, no matter what happens... it's just so anomalous even by Gretzky standards.


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07-26-2010, 04:24 PM
  #58
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The 50g in 39 games record will be broken long before the 163 assists. Really, only to think about it, it's a ridiculous amount of points, let alone assists only.

The 215 points in one season is a crazy record too though.

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07-26-2010, 04:24 PM
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Modern technique is far superior to the stand-up style, even with the old equipment. It's about playing percentages, and being proactive instead of reactive.
Very true, but even adjusted stats show rather large lead by Gretzky.

But I also agree that "never" is a strong word. 50's and 60's had Howe, 70's had Orr, 80's had Gretzky, 90's had Mario. We're long overdue a player who will make us really gasp our breath. Ovechkin is fun and all, but he'll prolly end up in Jagr level or lower.
C'mon Canada, make more superhockeybabies!!! Go make one with your spouse tonight so I'll be still alive to see it.

ps. I'm waiting for any of the new generation to break even 150 points, let alone assists

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07-27-2010, 01:19 PM
  #60
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Don't say that.

Any time someone can chock the world, once again.

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07-27-2010, 01:32 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Merya View Post
ps. I'm waiting for any of the new generation to break even 150 points, let alone assists
We're going to be waiting a while.

There isn't a single player in the league or on the horizon of the calibre of a Lemieux or Gretzky..

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07-27-2010, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
We're going to be waiting a while.

There isn't a single player in the league or on the horizon of the calibre of a Lemieux or Gretzky..
Agreed, hell there isn't even a single player of Yzerman's, Sakic's or Jagr's caliber yet.
Sid and OV could be but that's a loooong ways off yet.

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07-27-2010, 03:33 PM
  #63
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hard to imagine how the game may change over time, but those records that 99 holds (mainly the 92 goals, 50in39, 215 points, 163 assits, 51 game scoring streak) will last forever IMO. (Unless they go to 4on4, with soccer nets!)

it's not just the sheer stats that's so impressive. It was the IMMENSE GAP between his game and everyone else's game. He DOUBLED the output of his peers - it's not even close.

If Mario (who's almost as dominant) didn't happen to play in roughly the same era, 99s records would appear even MORE incredible.

I haven't seen anyone even CLOSE to what 99 brought to the game offensively. Not even remotely close.

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07-27-2010, 03:35 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Agreed, hell there isn't even a single player of Yzerman's, Sakic's or Jagr's caliber yet.
Sid and OV could be but that's a loooong ways off yet.
I've gotta disagree with this one. I don't think any of the three you listed above were as consistently dominant as Sid and Ovy have been in their first 5 seasons.

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07-27-2010, 03:49 PM
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I've gotta disagree with this one. I don't think any of the three you listed above were as consistently dominant as Sid and Ovy have been in their first 5 seasons.
How have Sid and Ovy been dominant so far?

They haven't separated themselves from the other stars much at all in my opinion.

I mean I think they are the best two forwards right now but my point is you don't see much of a drop off between them and the rest.

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07-27-2010, 03:50 PM
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I've gotta disagree with this one. I don't think any of the three you listed above were as consistently dominant as Sid and Ovy have been in their first 5 seasons.
Then they shouldn't have any problems out doing those 3 in their respective primes right, time will tell.

I did say "yet" btw.

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07-27-2010, 05:35 PM
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How have Sid and Ovy been dominant so far?

They haven't separated themselves from the other stars much at all in my opinion.

I mean I think they are the best two forwards right now but my point is you don't see much of a drop off between them and the rest.
But it's not like there was a big gap between Jagr, Sakic, and Yzerman and other stars either. And of that group, I'd say only Jagr could claim to be the best player in the world at any time. (Maybe Sakic for the 2001 season alone, and Yzerman in 1989 alone if we ignore 66/99). These three have all had better careers obviously, but longevity is about all any of them have on Crosby IMO. The jury is still out on Ovechkin, playoff success pending.

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07-27-2010, 05:45 PM
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But it's not like there was a big gap between Jagr, Sakic, and Yzerman and other stars either. And of that group, I'd say only Jagr could claim to be the best player in the world at any time. (Maybe Sakic for the 2001 season alone, and Yzerman in 1989 alone if we ignore 66/99). These three have all had better careers obviously, but longevity is about all any of them have on Crosby IMO. The jury is still out on Ovechkin, playoff success pending.
Jagr was definitely able to separate himself from the rest of the pack offensively. To me he is a notch below that Gretzky and Lemieux level for scoring.

Sakic and Yzerman in my books are actually another notch below Jagr offensively overall but both were able to approach that level at times. They bring a lot more than just offense though which makes them even better.

The fact is that only 2 players have ever scored more than Yzerman in a season. Lemieux and Gretzky. And neither of them ever got many Selke votes like Yzerman did.

I just don't see Sid or Ovie anywhere near that yet.

I think they might get to the Yzerman/Sakic level but I have a hard time believing they will get higher than that.

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07-27-2010, 06:38 PM
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Jagr was definitely able to separate himself from the rest of the pack offensively. To me he is a notch below that Gretzky and Lemieux level for scoring.

Sakic and Yzerman in my books are actually another notch below Jagr offensively overall but both were able to approach that level at times. They bring a lot more than just offense though which makes them even better.

The fact is that only 2 players have ever scored more than Yzerman in a season. Lemieux and Gretzky. And neither of them ever got many Selke votes like Yzerman did.

I just don't see Sid or Ovie anywhere near that yet.

I think they might get to the Yzerman/Sakic level but I have a hard time believing they will get higher than that.
Given Crosby's playoff success to go along with the regular season, I have a hard time saying that either Yzerman or Sakic had a clearly better five-year stretch in their careers.

Yzerman from 89-93 has some gaudy regular season numbers, but no playoff success. Crosby does have this, and for the past couple of seasons has been a more complete player than Yzerman was during that time span. Remember, Yzerman did not become the great two-way player until the mid-90's, and had to sacrifice a fair chunk of his offense to accomplish it. He certainly wasn't getting any Selke votes when he was scoring 120+ points. Crosby has already shown the ability to be strong in all areas of the ice without diminishing his offensive ability. Who's five-year stretch would you take here? I would take Crosby's. Even if you take Yzerman's, it's definitely arguable.

Compare with Sakic from 96-01 (a six year stretch, I know). Both players had two great runs to the finals, each winning the Cup (two for Sakic), plus another strong performance that saw their team come up short of that. In terms of regular season, Sakic missed a fair bit of time injured, so I'd be inclined to give a slight edge to Crosby here. Sakic's 2001 season/playoffs is probably the best out of them, but Crosby's 2009 is certainly within striking distance. I probably take Sakic by a hair over this stretch, but in fairness to Crosby he's got next year yet to play to make it six seasons apiece.

In terms of peak performance, I think all three of these players are close. (This assumes of course that we have already witnessed Crosby's peak, which we likely haven't, but in this comparison we must assume that we have.)

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07-27-2010, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
How have Sid and Ovy been dominant so far?

They haven't separated themselves from the other stars much at all in my opinion.

I mean I think they are the best two forwards right now but my point is you don't see much of a drop off between them and the rest.
Well, Ovechkin has 5 consecutive First Allstar Team selections (at a time when the LW position is actually pretty strong). He's been top-3 in scoring 4 times in 5 years. He has an Art Ross, 2 Richards, 2 Harts, 3 Pearsons, and has led the league in PPG the last 3 seasons. He has absolutely run away with two goal scoring races, including the first 65 goal season since Lemieux in 1996. He has 20 goals and 40 points in 28 playoff games. He's 24 years old.

At the age of 22, Sidney Crosby has an Art Ross, a Hart, and a Richard. He's been a first and second team allstar at the always tough centre position. He's led a young team to back-to-back Stanley Cup Finals appearances, and has become the youngest players to ever captain a Cup champion. He has 82 points in 62 playoff games. He recently scored one of the biggest international goals in recent memory.

Unless you reserve the term for the handful of Gretzky-level players we've seen, I don't know you could not consider these two to be dominant?


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07-28-2010, 06:59 AM
  #71
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Well, Ovechkin has 5 consecutive First Allstar Team selections (at a time when the LW position is actually pretty strong). He's been top-3 in scoring 4 times in 5 years. He has an Art Ross, 2 Richards, 2 Harts, 3 Pearsons, and has led the league in PPG the last 3 seasons. He has absolutely run away with two goal scoring races, including the first 65 goal season since Lemieux in 1996. He has 20 goals and 40 points in 28 playoff games. He's 24 years old.

At the age of 22, Sidney Crosby has an Art Ross, a Hart, and a Richard. He's been a first and second team allstar at the always tough centre position. He's led a young team to back-to-back Stanley Cup Finals appearances, and has become the youngest players to ever captain a Cup champion. He has 82 points in 62 playoff games. He recently scored one of the biggest international goals in recent memory.

Unless you reserve the term for the handful of Gretzky-level players we've seen, I don't know you could not consider these two to be dominant?
They are currently the best because they are consistently near the top like you said.

Dominant is outpacing the opposition.

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07-28-2010, 09:59 AM
  #72
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Well, Ovechkin has 5 consecutive First Allstar Team selections (at a time when the LW position is actually pretty strong). He's been top-3 in scoring 4 times in 5 years. He has an Art Ross, 2 Richards, 2 Harts, 3 Pearsons, and has led the league in PPG the last 3 seasons. He has absolutely run away with two goal scoring races, including the first 65 goal season since Lemieux in 1996. He has 20 goals and 40 points in 28 playoff games. He's 24 years old.

At the age of 22, Sidney Crosby has an Art Ross, a Hart, and a Richard. He's been a first and second team allstar at the always tough centre position. He's led a young team to back-to-back Stanley Cup Finals appearances, and has become the youngest players to ever captain a Cup champion. He has 82 points in 62 playoff games. He recently scored one of the biggest international goals in recent memory.

Unless you reserve the term for the handful of Gretzky-level players we've seen, I don't know you could not consider these two to be dominant?

Sorry but comparing hardware doesn't fly when trying to make comparisons to Yzerman.
There sure as hell aint no Gretzky's or Lemieux's running around gobbling up almost every trophy and every allstar nomination.
Hell, Sid and OV couldn't even keep the Hart over Sedin last year. Nothing against Sedin but we're not exactly talking what you would call elite there.
Stevie Y also played with a hell of a lot of scrubs in Detroit for the first half of his career and didn't have anywhere near the level of teams around him that Sid and OV are already benefiting from till the early/mid 90's.

Sid's playoff performance last year was nothing to write home about and don't give me that team crap. You can't give him all that credit for winning the Cup and then leave him blameless when he doesn't.
Stevie took a lot of heat for not being able to win a Cup in the 80's with teams a hell of a lot worse than what Sid has had the last 3 years and I'm not about to let Sid off any easier, sorry.

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07-28-2010, 10:15 AM
  #73
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Jagr was definitely able to separate himself from the rest of the pack offensively. To me he is a notch below that Gretzky and Lemieux level for scoring.

Sakic and Yzerman in my books are actually another notch below Jagr offensively overall but both were able to approach that level at times. They bring a lot more than just offense though which makes them even better.

The fact is that only 2 players have ever scored more than Yzerman in a season. Lemieux and Gretzky. And neither of them ever got many Selke votes like Yzerman did.

I just don't see Sid or Ovie anywhere near that yet.

I think they might get to the Yzerman/Sakic level but I have a hard time believing they will get higher than that.
Yzerman was only a two-way threat after his offensive totals plummeted. He was considered neither complete nor clutch when he was in his offensive prime. Crosby is at least as complete now as Yzerman ever was, and he's only 22. In a given year, he can lead the league in goals and/or assists, points, and he's improving by leaps and bounds defensively and in the faceoff circle. His playoff resume is also insane, he's led the league in goals, assists and points in the playoffs, and he's already almost halfway to Yzerman's playoff point total and is a successful captain at an age where Yzerman was years from being considered a great leader.

When Crosby's in his prime, he'll separate himself comfortably from Sakic and Yzerman, unless something bad happens. Ovechkin pretty much already has. 3 Lindsays already and has no peer when it comes to goal scoring and consistent offensive production.


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07-28-2010, 10:49 AM
  #74
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I think there's more elite talent than ever. Nobody as good as Gretzky, Orr or Lemieux, but there's more players coming from more countries that have better developed hockey programs... there's just simply more talent. I don't see how you can make the argument that isn't the most talent-laden era ever. We've even got a Slovenian star.

To get an environment where Crosby or Ovechkin can make a run at any records, we need more bottom-tier players and bad teams. Large scale expansion, dilute the league and let the elite players go to town and exploit inferior players. Rapid expansion always coincides with more offense. Dilution of the talent pool during the WW2 era meant more offense and broken records.

Ovechkin in particular could make a serious run at 92 goals if the league went through some changes. Brett Hull made a serious run. Even Cam Neely scored 50 in 44.

But 163 assists is the one that is going to be the hardest single-season offensive record to break, no matter what happens... it's just so anomalous even by Gretzky standards.
I really agree with this comment. Its not that there's no elite talent - there's probably more now than there has been in a long time. The problem is, we're comparing our elite talent to Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr - and they simply aren't as good as those 3. Its the very very top end talent, those 2-3 super-elite players who aren't measuring up to their predecessors - the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr trinity.

But they are elite. Lord knows I've criticized them for not separating themselves from the rest of the league, or not dominating the scoring races like Gretzky and Lemieux did. But they are consistantly near the top. The comparisons to Jagr are probably good ones - they are both off to a better start through 5 years than Jagr, but will they achieve that level of domination? Well, so far they haven't had the 5 art rosses that he did, but they've still got time.

We usually judge a player by their career, and the new stars haven't finished their yet - or even close. Would Lidstrom have been considered one of the greatest Dmen of all time after only 5 seasons? Probably not. Orr is one of the few that would have. But that doesn't diminish Lidstrom's accomplishments or his career - he has to be judged by his body of work, which is among the best ever.

Same with Crosby and Ovechkin. Time will tell where they belong on our all-time lists. So far, we complain they haven't dominated the scoring races like Gretzky or Lemieux, so we rank them below that. They haven't even dominated like Jagr, so we rank them below him. But they COULD achieve Jagr type levels. They are off to a better start than him - its all about where they go from here. If they continue to be only top 5 point producers, then they'll probably be judged below Jagr. If they start winning Art Rosses more consistantly, they could even pass him. Time will tell.

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07-28-2010, 10:52 AM
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Yzerman was only a two-way threat after his offensive totals plummeted. He was considered neither complete nor clutch when he was in his offensive prime. Crosby is at least as complete now as Yzerman ever was, and he's only 22. In a given year, he can lead the league in goals and/or assists, points, and he's improving by leaps and bounds defensively and in the faceoff circle. His playoff resume is also insane, he's led the league in goals, assists and points in the playoffs, and he's already almost halfway to Yzerman's playoff point total and is a successful captain at an age where Yzerman was years from being considered a great leader.

When Crosby's in his prime, he'll separate himself comfortably from Sakic and Yzerman, unless something bad happens. Ovechkin pretty much already has. 3 Lindsays already and has no peer when it comes to goal scoring and consistent offensive production.
I can as easily say that Yzerman's offensive totals plummeted because he refocused his game to become a great two-way player at the urging of Scotty Bowman. And I'd be closer to the truth.

And if Crosby is as complete as Yzerman ever was already.. how did he do in the Selke voting this year?

The funny thing is that you are comparing these guys to all time greats and they can't even separate themselves distinctly from Sedin.

Yes Crosby is only 22 and has accomplished an awful lot. Lets see how he does when he is on a team as poor as the mid-80s Detroit.

He has been fortunate to be an extremely talented player in ideal situations so far...

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