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Joey Hishon??!!? Who the heck is that?!?!

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Old
06-29-2010, 11:09 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOMUCHBREWER View Post
First off, the central scouting guys would be working for a team if they were that good.

Secondly the internet consensus is meaningless because 99% of the time the people making them up dont know ****.

I'll trust the professionals with a good track record. The internet can go to hell.
Avalanche are quickly turning into the new Detroit Redwings when it comes to drafting... I'm starting to not-care about them only drafting "domestic" players as long as those players continue to shine

2005: Stastny, Stoa, Hensick, Cumiskey (all fantastic players with good potential)
2006: Stewart (ehh.. other than him this wasn't a great year)
2007: Shattenkirk, Cohen, Galiardi, Patterson (2 great D and an NHL regular drafted #55)
2008: Gaunce, Tessier, Holos (all could turn out good but no measurable success yet)
2009: Duchene, O'Reilly, Elliot, Barrie (possibly better than '05... so much win)
2010: Hishon, Pickard, Silas, Attokallio, Rutkowski, Moffat (all highly-touted-or-once-highly-touted players... we'll see how this one turns out)

It's amazing that the first player to hit the NHL from the 2007 draft was Galiardi... and he may not even be the best from the draft for the Avalanche.

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06-29-2010, 11:14 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
Avalanche are quickly turning into the new Detroit Redwings when it comes to drafting... I'm starting to not-care about them only drafting "domestic" players as long as those players continue to shine
There are more players playing in the NHL that where drafted by Colorado then any other team.

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06-29-2010, 11:18 AM
  #53
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There are more players playing in the NHL that where drafted by Colorado then any other team.
It's also a myth that the Red Wings are particularly good at drafting, but that's beside the point .

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06-29-2010, 11:27 AM
  #54
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It's also a myth that the Red Wings are particularly good at drafting, but that's beside the point .
I think they draft Europeans very well in the late rounds... Not just talking about the obvious Datsyuk and Zetterberg here.

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06-29-2010, 11:38 AM
  #55
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If the Avs can get at least one decent contributing player out of each draft I would consider it disappointing.

If they can get three+ players or at least one high impact (top line forward or top 4 D) player I'd call it good.

Thats the raised expectations I have of the Avs scouting staff, for many other teams they can only dream of having such success.

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06-29-2010, 11:39 AM
  #56
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Stewart and Wolski were also considered risky reaches considering the questions marks both had coming into the draft.

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06-29-2010, 11:45 AM
  #57
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Stewart and Wolski were also considered risky reaches considering the questions marks both had coming into the draft.
The only difference is they were pretty highly touted headed into the draft then fell draft day... Both were top 14 if not top 10 considerations.
Hishon wasn't highly rated headed into the draft but rather prior to this season he was rated top 10.

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06-29-2010, 12:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
Avalanche are quickly turning into the new Detroit Redwings when it comes to drafting... I'm starting to not-care about them only drafting "domestic" players as long as those players continue to shine
We are the North American Detroit Red Wings (we only get players from NA) and the Wings are the European Avs (draft mostly Euros).

Quote:
2005: Stastny, Stoa, Hensick, Cumiskey (all fantastic players with good potential)
2006: Stewart (ehh.. other than him this wasn't a great year)
2007: Shattenkirk, Cohen, Galiardi, Patterson (2 great D and an NHL regular drafted #55)
2008: Gaunce, Tessier, Holos (all could turn out good but no measurable success yet)
2009: Duchene, O'Reilly, Elliot, Barrie (possibly better than '05... so much win)
2010: Hishon, Pickard, Silas, Attokallio, Rutkowski, Moffat (all highly-touted-or-once-highly-touted players... we'll see how this one turns out)
Hensick - I'd consider a AHL superstar but not a success by any means. Until he plays more than 200 games in the NHL I wouldn't call him a "fantastic player". He may change that in the future with the Blues but until then - nada!

Tessier - didn't qualify and wasn't drafted. Doesn't have a NHL team.

Quote:
It's amazing that the first player to hit the NHL from the 2007 draft was Galiardi... and he may not even be the best from the draft for the Avalanche.
Oh I don't know, a first line LW?! Hard to live up to that! (runs and hides before Starlinx reads comment).

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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
I think they draft Europeans very well in the late rounds... Not just talking about the obvious Datsyuk and Zetterberg here.
I posted this before in the previous draft thread but the Wings drafting is highly overrated. They got lucky with Dats and Zetterburg and their previous success was due to the NHL - Euro bias. They don't have a single player on their roster that was drafted in 2005+ drafts.

Not saying the players drafted since then won't make the NHL since the Wings take time with their players but again drafting success is overblown.

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Originally Posted by Ensane View Post
Stewart and Wolski were also considered risky reaches considering the questions marks both had coming into the draft.
Really? Stewart was ranked 8th in NA forwards by CSS and Wolski was considered to be a top 10 pick - rumors of attitude problems and the fighting incident brought him down. He was the Kabanov of his draft year (minus the insane father).

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06-29-2010, 12:11 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
The only difference is they were pretty highly touted headed into the draft then fell draft day... Both were top 14 if not top 10 considerations.
Hishon wasn't highly rated headed into the draft but rather prior to this season he was rated top 10.
They were highly touted because of their skillsets--similar to Hishon, and fell for other reasons (potential character issues). Both had their stock drop long before draft day.

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06-29-2010, 12:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by dmitri View Post
Really? Stewart was ranked 8th in NA forwards by CSS and Wolski was considered to be a top 10 pick - rumors of attitude problems and the fighting incident brought him down. He was the Kabanov of his draft year (minus the insane father).
Stewart's desire to play hockey was questioned, since he took a year off to play football.

Point is, the Avs have taken risky, yet highly talented forwards from the OHL in the first round in the recent past, and things worked out fine. Obviously sometimes injuries are outside of everyone's control, but I'd say this pick is more of the boom/bust nature of Wolski and Stewart than it is with say Nedorost, Kuleshov, and Johansson--coincidentally all from European leagues.

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06-29-2010, 12:42 PM
  #61
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Tessier isn't Avs property anymore?

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06-29-2010, 12:49 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by dmitri View Post
I posted this before in the previous draft thread but the Wings drafting is highly overrated. They got lucky with Dats and Zetterburg and their previous success was due to the NHL - Euro bias. They don't have a single player on their roster that was drafted in 2005+ drafts.

Not saying the players drafted since then won't make the NHL since the Wings take time with their players but again drafting success is overblown.
One can make excuses but in the end this is not luck. Red Wings have a great talent identification and evaluation network in Europe that has allowed them to grab hidden gems. They focus on it. We do the same in North America now. Are Gali, Cumiskey, and Jones luck? Let's hate the Dead Things for the right reasons but give credit where it is due.

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06-29-2010, 01:02 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
Tessier isn't Avs property anymore?
No. He wasn't qualified along with Delmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWAvsFan View Post
One can make excuses but in the end this is not luck. Red Wings have a great talent identification and evaluation network in Europe that has allowed them to grab hidden gems. They focus on it. We do the same in North America now. Are Gali, Cumiskey, and Jones luck? Let's hate the Dead Things for the right reasons but give credit where it is due.
You don't think its luck that the Wings drafted about 5 or 6 players before drafting Dats and Zets (and those 5 or 6 didn't come close to making the NHL or left due to medial reasons i.e. Fricher).

I would call it good scouting for sure since they were drafted before the NHL lockout where the Wings were the only teams spending the most money on European drafting but since the lockout they haven't produced the same success - that's what I am arguing. They are living from their past success.

Cumiskey and Jones were lucky in my opinion as well. Cumiskey wasn't ranked and neither were Jones. If you look at the amount of players that actually make it to the NHL and you are able to get 2 of them in the final round you wouldn't call that lucky?

Guess our definition of luck is different. If you draft a player within the first 3 rounds and they make the NHL I wouldn't call that lucky. Anything after where chances of drafting impact NHLers are less and come away with two of the best forwards in the league or players that are a impact part of a NHL roster; I'd call that lucky for sure.

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06-29-2010, 01:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by NWAvsFan View Post
One can make excuses but in the end this is not luck. Red Wings have a great talent identification and evaluation network in Europe that has allowed them to grab hidden gems. They focus on it. We do the same in North America now. Are Gali, Cumiskey, and Jones luck? Let's hate the Dead Things for the right reasons but give credit where it is due.
When a 6th/7th rounder turns out to be an NHL regular, that's good scouting, so in that sense yes, Zetterberg and Datsyuk were good picks and kudos to Detroit for picking them up. However, when a 7th round pick turns out to be a top 10 player in the world, that takes a huge amount of luck. If Detroit had any idea who Datsyuk would turn into, they would have taken him with their first pick.

People always point to guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg as evidence of Detroit's superior drafting, but they are exceptions. The plural of anecdote is not data, and the data at least since the lockout show pretty convincingly that Detroit is only average when it comes to drafting.

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06-29-2010, 01:29 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by dmitri View Post
No. He wasn't qualified along with Delmas.



You don't think its luck that the Wings drafted about 5 or 6 players before drafting Dats and Zets (and those 5 or 6 didn't come close to making the NHL or left due to medial reasons i.e. Fricher).

I would call it good scouting for sure since they were drafted before the NHL lockout where the Wings were the only teams spending the most money on European drafting but since the lockout they haven't produced the same success - that's what I am arguing. They are living from their past success.

Cumiskey and Jones were lucky in my opinion as well. Cumiskey wasn't ranked and neither were Jones. If you look at the amount of players that actually make it to the NHL and you are able to get 2 of them in the final round you wouldn't call that lucky?

Guess our definition of luck is different. If you draft a player within the first 3 rounds and they make the NHL I wouldn't call that lucky. Anything after where chances of drafting impact NHLers are less and come away with two of the best forwards in the league or players that are a impact part of a NHL roster; I'd call that lucky for sure.
I think when you have enough boots on the ground (and the right boots) you become exposed to players that others are not. If you can be confident that you have a hidden gem you can wait until late rounds to select him. That means your scouting apparatus is good at keeping secrets too. I don't think this has much to do with luck. Every player has a development projection too and you don't get many guys in the late rounds that are a lock. You will identify guys with raw skills and size that fit your goal and then it is a matter of the development system they are in at that stage of their careers and their personality. That stuff is all probabilities. Where luck comes in is on the health/injury front. A guy like Fritsche is a good example of a career brought down by health concerns. Body size can be roughly projected by looking at genetics, attitude by doing good interviews and assessing family background. I think there is a lot more science to scouting than most people realize.

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06-29-2010, 01:59 PM
  #66
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I think that the qualities Avs look for in players will result in a lot of good third liners/solid #4 defender type of players. But they will produce them with a pretty high frequency.

I don't mind, since those kind of players are very important when it comes to winning and also will have value in the trade market. Character matters.

And of course now and again we will get the chance to pick someone who can amount to more than that (Stewart, Duchene, possibly Hishon and Shattenkirk) and perhaps even encounter a diamond in the rough. Duncan Keith was picked late second round. Who is to say none of our defensive prospects won't start developing really good post-draft. At least if the mental characteristics are in place, the chance is higher.

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06-29-2010, 03:22 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by NWAvsFan View Post
I think when you have enough boots on the ground (and the right boots) you become exposed to players that others are not. If you can be confident that you have a hidden gem you can wait until late rounds to select him. That means your scouting apparatus is good at keeping secrets too.
Okay, that is fine. I cannot argue with this. If the 2010 draft has taught me everything its not all about independent rankings.

Quote:
I don't think this has much to do with luck. Every player has a development projection too and you don't get many guys in the late rounds that are a lock. You will identify guys with raw skills and size that fit your goal and then it is a matter of the development system they are in at that stage of their careers and their personality. That stuff is all probabilities. Where luck comes in is on the health/injury front. A guy like Fritsche is a good example of a career brought down by health concerns. Body size can be roughly projected by looking at genetics, attitude by doing good interviews and assessing family background. I think there is a lot more science to scouting than most people realize.
So, what is your definition of luck? I don't think you said it (or if you did I just didn't get it).

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06-29-2010, 04:08 PM
  #68
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So, what is your definition of luck? I don't think you said it (or if you did I just didn't get it).
It was at the end with the comments about health and injury. I don't think luck (fortune, providence, whatever) is a factor unless you are just pulling names out of the hat. Even late rounders are picked because they have identified traits that are desirable. Late rounders have less of them though and there is a bigger unknown surrounding their ability to develop complimentary skills.

Luck to me is winning the draft lottery or finding yourself with an extra goon when Burke has cap-room.

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06-29-2010, 04:13 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by NWAvsFan View Post
It was at the end with the comments about health and injury. I don't think luck (fortune, providence, whatever) is a factor unless you are just pulling names out of the hat. Even late rounders are picked because they have identified traits that are desirable. Late rounders have less of them though and there is a bigger unknown surrounding their ability to develop complimentary skills.

Luck to me is winning the draft lottery or finding yourself with an extra goon when Burke has cap-room.
Okay, I define luck differently and this depends on perspective. We'll just agree to disagree.

P.S. I win

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06-29-2010, 04:49 PM
  #70
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P.S. I win
You just got lucky...



(Goes with your new boy toy Stastny theme )

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06-29-2010, 07:28 PM
  #71
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^ LOL! well played my good friend. well played.

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06-29-2010, 08:04 PM
  #72
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I lobby for the return of asian chicks.

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06-29-2010, 08:09 PM
  #73
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Your lobby is successful

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06-30-2010, 10:38 AM
  #74
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Your lobby is successful

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06-30-2010, 11:19 AM
  #75
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As per Bob McKenzie tweet another team was considering Hishon in the late first.



Who do you think it was? I'm guessing Vancouver, they said they would keep their pick if their forward was still on the board. Bob knows the Canadian teams best.
I don't think so. The Nucks needed a defenseman, they wanted a defenseman, and they traded for a defenseman. If Vancouver still had the 25th pick they would have drafted a defenseman. Chicago or Florida come to mind as the teams interested in Hishon.

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