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Old
06-29-2010, 09:01 PM
  #76
Sasha Cares
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Originally Posted by MarkyMarkNC View Post
Says every scouting report about him pre-draft.

JR's lip service about him getting a chance with the club next year is the same thing every GM says about every prospect every single year.
This

so any lipservice from anywhere here about any possibility of something else is silly... Heck if he makes the squad, I think that would be more of a bad thing than a good thing... It would mean some major injuries or completely poor play from players ahead of him

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06-29-2010, 09:04 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
Look, I'm not saying he's NHL ready, I've never watched the kid play. But if he impresses more than say Boychuk in camp and the ORG thinks he's ready, then don't be surprised when he gets his 10 games with the big club and Boychuk goes to Charlotte.

Just because we have guys named Boychuk, Bowman, Dalpe, etc, if Skinner performs better than them in camp, the ORG is going to keep him over those seniority or not.
I think Boychuk makes the roster no matter what... The team needs to know if he is the real deal or not and he will have to play this year in the NHL to know this...

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06-30-2010, 09:51 AM
  #78
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Jussi-Staal-Larose
Ruutuu - Sutter - Tlusty
Skinner - Boychuck - Cole
Kstop - Dwyer - Samson

Pitkanen-McBain
Gleason -Not on roster yet
Babchuck-Sanguinetti
Harrison

I think Staal operates best at even strength with speed on his right. When Chad gets the chance, he keeps pace the way Cole did before the injury. Staal doesnt' need someone to do to much, just be there so both dmen can't defend against him.

Skinner is a big kid. 5'10" 190 is nothing to sneeze at. Mark Recchi is listed at 5'10" 195, and nobody is calling him dainty. This is not the typical 5'9", 160 pounder they've picked up in the past that needs to put on a lot of size.

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Old
06-30-2010, 12:32 PM
  #79
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jr has rushed every single high draft choice we have ever had, and none of them were ready. where people are getting the whole idea of not playing skinner when he has already said the kid will get every chance - not getting it. oneill, staal, jj, and ladd were all pushed to play early. as were not so high picks tanabe, ward, and sutter. staal was awesome in camp but had been given the same lines about getting a chance in camp, and even without all the goals they likely wouldve kept him. jr is not giving a standard gm line, he backs this one up every chance he gets, and if you look at his face when he says it youd know he means it.

they said before the draft their guy could play this year.

the staff has said skinner has a chance this year.

jr said in front of a camera the kid will get every chance.

thats WAY more info than we normally get, he is at least 50/50 to play this year, he will have to be shown up by mulitiple youngsters on top of showing he is too physically immature. these two things could, in fact should happen, but the team will lean till keeping him as long as they possibly can. with all the obvious history about this, im surprised some people are so sure this kid is going to juniors. with brindy out there is one more spot open for kids. there wont be any seniority about who gets called up or which kid stays in the first place. tlusty is the only kid assured a spot.

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06-30-2010, 12:35 PM
  #80
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Imo there's no way Skinner make team over Boychuk.

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Old
06-30-2010, 12:56 PM
  #81
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Skinner is a prime example of the CHL rules screwing a kid despite their positive intentions. Skinner's career would be best served in Charlotte but sadly it isnt an option.

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06-30-2010, 01:01 PM
  #82
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Question is, where will Skinner play...Center or Wing?

I think he's going to be given time in both positions, and will probably get good minutes in every preseason game. And I agree with what bleedgreen's is saying...especially with Sutter's situation from last year still fresh JR's mind. The only hope we have of him being given a year to develop is the possibility that JR won't want to start Skinner's pro contract clock for another year.

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06-30-2010, 01:24 PM
  #83
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Jokinen - Staal "C" - Skinner
Boychuk - Cullen - Ruutu
LaRose - Sutter "A" - Cole
Osala - Tlusty - Kostopoulos

Pitkanen - McBain
Gleason "A" - ???
Babchuk - Sanguinetti

Ward
Peters

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Old
06-30-2010, 01:33 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
jr has rushed every single high draft choice we have ever had, and none of them were ready. where people are getting the whole idea of not playing skinner when he has already said the kid will get every chance - not getting it. oneill, staal, jj, and ladd were all pushed to play early. as were not so high picks tanabe, ward, and sutter.
its also important to note the success of the players pushed to play early. outside of maybe tanabe, they all went on to be very successful.

So the organization seems to have a decent feel for this sort of thing.

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06-30-2010, 01:35 PM
  #85
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i dont feel a single one of them benefitted from our approach, and in almost all cases it hampered their development. i will say all.

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06-30-2010, 02:03 PM
  #86
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All those players had high levels of success in their second season. Staal had 100 pts, we just saw Sutter become amazing, and Ward won the Conn Smythe his rookie year.

They all reached some very high levels of play almost immediately, so i'm not sure i understand the hampered development argument.

I think there is a year adjustment period from minors to pros for guys of this caliber, and the earlier you get that out of the way, the more productive years you get from them.

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Old
06-30-2010, 02:12 PM
  #87
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Staal also got an entire year in the AHL because of the lockout. I wonder how he would have developed without that?

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06-30-2010, 02:12 PM
  #88
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staal and ward were saved by an unintentional season in the minors, everyone involved including themselves say that year directed their career path. they wouldve never had it without the lockout. ward was given the backup role for that cancelled season without ever playing a game, and was gonna get maybe 20 starts instead of playing a full year at 20 years old.

ladd needed more offense to his game, and didnt have his man strength yet. he got hurt cuz they asked to play a role he wasnt ready for and early injuries have stalled his development. hes still trying to develop his offense, couldve been helped by another year of development.

sutter almost had his career ended by a legit vicious check he brought on himself trying a kid move on a vet. he was not nearly strong enough, not enough awareness almost cost him his career. he/we got really lucky with how that turned out. it was a bad decision.

trying to force jj led to him being traded, where he has shown he was right - he wasnt ready. on the edge of stud now, though. looked amazing in the olympics and showed his character off the ice with how he represented his country. bad handling, though i love timmah.

most of the adjustment you speak of is what those lower levels are for. developing strength, poise, understanding of what is expected of you and doing it in an environment less likely to hurt you. the "new" nhl is opening the doors early to kids, and the stars are great but will they be able to last till 30? is the nhl at 18 a good thing for anyone? look at vinny. his game looks like that of a 35 year old sometimes. probably what he feels like after all the grind he's already been through, he is still a young guy,

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Old
06-30-2010, 07:58 PM
  #89
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Two observations...Skinner will be ready ONLY at the point that he proves himself ready....regardless of history, and regardless of the wisdom of "rushing" prospects to the big club, in the end, if he proves that he's ready in the eyes of the coaching staff, then he will be given the opportunity to play. However, I believe that, in this case especially, the financial aspect of keeping the contract clock in check will win out and he will return to his Jr. team.

Secondly, if LaRose keeps getting pencil-ed in for 1st line duties we are remaking a major mistake. Chad is a great energy guy and has some scoring skills, but he's not a 1st line (or even a
2nd liner) guy. He's best used on the 3rd and 4th lines where his speed, tenacity, and sometime scoring touch is superior to the capabilities of the opponents that he's matched up against. So that being said, here's what I think the lines will look like with not UFA signings:

Jokinen/Staal/Cole
Boychuk or Tlusty/Sutter/Ruutu
Samsonov or Tlusty or Boychuk/Nash or Dodge/LaRose
Samsonov/Dwyer or Matsumoto/K-stop

I really think Dodge has a realistic chance at the team. I think Boychuk is a lock and I think the organization wants Cole to play like is old self. Regardless, I think he's going to surprise this year. I think the 2nd line is Boychuk's to lose. In the end I wouldn't be surprised to see Sammy and Cole get showcased a lot this year so that they have high value at the trade deadline (I really don't want to see Sammy on the 4th line all year). I used to think LaRose would also get moved, but I now think he's got a more important role mentoring some of the youngsters.

The unfortunate reality is that some of the young talent is going to be chafing a bit (Bowman and Osala for example) and I think that's a challenge that will have to be worked through. I really don't want to see Osala on the 4th line nor do I want to see Bowman there. The former is a prototypical power forward and the latter is a pure scorer. So we'll see how all of that will shake out.

As for the Defense, I see something like this:

Pitkanen/McBain
Gleason/Sanguinetti
Carson/Babchuk
Harrison

Ward
Peters

For some reason I can't really believe that Carson won't eventually sign with us. If we do uncharacteristically go after a UFA of consequence, I believe it will be a D-man.

Just my thoughts.....

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Old
06-30-2010, 10:18 PM
  #90
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Jokinen-Staal-Boychuk/Cole
Ruutu-Sutter-Cole/Boychuk
LaRose-Matsumoto/Nash/Dalpe-Tlusty/Samsonov
Kostopolous-Dwyer-Samsonov/Tlusty

something like that haha.....

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Old
07-01-2010, 01:36 PM
  #91
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re bleedgreen

You changed the argument. You said Staal/Ward/Sutter were hampered.

I say all 3 reached high levels of play way ahead of schedule. If you want to deal in hypothetical conjecture on the Quasi-Ahl season (filled with NHL talent), that's fine. But they have not been hampered. If Sutter spent his rookie year in juniors, and last year in the AHL. This would be his First NHL season, and he'd be WAY behind development wise.

Ladd I think just has a low ceiling based on his skillset. Worse for him, he didn't really fit into the Canes system. Again, he's 24, just scored 17 for the stanley cup champs. I think that's a decent career progression. I concur I'd rather have him playing a lot of minutes in the AHL than riding the pine in the NHL. But really, I think the best thing for Andrew Ladd was getting traded someplace where he would be used effectively.

Jack Johnson I was under the impression didn't like Carolina. Because it was Carolina. Douchey, but from all accounts, that's who he is. Happy to have Gleason instead.

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07-01-2010, 02:08 PM
  #92
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Never mind, already posted in Babchuk thread.

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Old
07-01-2010, 04:47 PM
  #93
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looking at the amount of QUALITY/PROVEN players on our roster i would not be surprised if staal and/or gleason start thinking about forcing a trade. i could break it down individualy but it comes down to most of our roster is kids or players that seem to have schizo seasons--experts say you have to have 7 to build around so is this ours?

1-staal
2-jokinen
3-ruutu
4-gleason
5-pitkanen
6-sutter
7-ward

3 forwards-2 dmen=1-specialist-1 goalie

how does our 7 compare to most teams? plus our supporting cast for these guys a lot of them still have the training wheels on---our guys young fresh kegs may outskate a lot of teams but that may be the only advantage we have

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07-01-2010, 04:49 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakepliskin View Post
looking at the amount of QUALITY/PROVEN players on our roster i would not be surprised if staal and/or gleason start thinking about forcing a trade. i could break it down individualy but it comes down to most of our roster is kids or players that seem to have schizo seasons--experts say you have to have 7 to build around so is this ours?

1-staal
2-jokinen
3-ruutu
4-gleason
5-pitkanen
6-sutter
7-ward

3 forwards-2 dmen=1-specialist-1 goalie

how does our 7 compare to most teams? plus our supporting cast for these guys a lot of them still have the training wheels on---our guys young fresh kegs may outskate a lot of teams but that may be the only advantage we have
You forgot Erik Cole.

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07-01-2010, 04:52 PM
  #95
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I'll put Cole in the top 7 if he promised to miss the protective netting from the top of the crease in future seasons.

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07-01-2010, 04:55 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakepliskin View Post
looking at the amount of QUALITY/PROVEN players on our roster i would not be surprised if staal and/or gleason start thinking about forcing a trade. i could break it down individualy but it comes down to most of our roster is kids or players that seem to have schizo seasons--experts say you have to have 7 to build around so is this ours?

1-staal
2-jokinen
3-ruutu
4-gleason
5-pitkanen
6-sutter
7-ward

3 forwards-2 dmen=1-specialist-1 goalie

how does our 7 compare to most teams? plus our supporting cast for these guys a lot of them still have the training wheels on---our guys young fresh kegs may outskate a lot of teams but that may be the only advantage we have
Wow, this board is big into hyperbole.

Staal has already won a Cup, went back to the ECF a year ago, loves Carolina, signed a long term deal, etc. Gleason got his first taste of the playoffs with us and is a team first guy. But now they are supposed to be fed up after one season of missing the playoffs/not signing a big UFA? I'm sure they understand we're getting younger and taking the right steps to rebuild. They are going nowhere unless this becomes a habitual thing.

You think our star players have it bad? Look at Rick Nash and Kovalchuk, they have/had a lot more to be pissed about with their organizations.

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Old
07-01-2010, 05:38 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Erik Stall View Post
Wow, this board is big into hyperbole.
You forgot to say that this is just your opinion.

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Old
07-01-2010, 08:20 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by wallym View Post
re bleedgreen

You changed the argument. You said Staal/Ward/Sutter were hampered.

I say all 3 reached high levels of play way ahead of schedule. If you want to deal in hypothetical conjecture on the Quasi-Ahl season (filled with NHL talent), that's fine. But they have not been hampered. If Sutter spent his rookie year in juniors, and last year in the AHL. This would be his First NHL season, and he'd be WAY behind development wise.

Ladd I think just has a low ceiling based on his skillset. Worse for him, he didn't really fit into the Canes system. Again, he's 24, just scored 17 for the stanley cup champs. I think that's a decent career progression. I concur I'd rather have him playing a lot of minutes in the AHL than riding the pine in the NHL. But really, I think the best thing for Andrew Ladd was getting traded someplace where he would be used effectively.

Jack Johnson I was under the impression didn't like Carolina. Because it was Carolina. Douchey, but from all accounts, that's who he is. Happy to have Gleason instead.
Sutter did spend his first year in juniors. The year after that he did start out in the AHL. How do you figure the 50 NHL games he played the season before last for sure kept him from being WAY behind development-wise?

Unless I'm forgetting someone, I don't think this organization has had any player make the team right out of the draft since Chris Pronger. I'm sure Bleedgreen and a few others remember how badly that turned out.

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07-01-2010, 08:43 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by MarkyMarkNC View Post
Sutter did spend his first year in juniors. The year after that he did start out in the AHL. How do you figure the 50 NHL games he played the season before last for sure kept him from being WAY behind development-wise?

Unless I'm forgetting someone, I don't think this organization has had any player make the team right out of the draft since Chris Pronger. I'm sure Bleedgreen and a few others remember how badly that turned out.



That did turn out rather badly. It's possible it wouldn't have been so bad if the leadership in the organization at the time weren't drunks with no responsibility, a GM drunk running over mailboxes and a captain getting in a bar fight in Buffalo with the 18 year old rookie by his side. If Brindy or Francis were the captain things would have looked a whole lot different.

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Old
07-01-2010, 08:59 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by MarkyMarkNC View Post
Unless I'm forgetting someone, I don't think this organization has had any player make the team right out of the draft since Chris Pronger.
Staal

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