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Old
06-28-2010, 06:27 PM
  #26
Varius
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I think first, no GM should be judged on their drafting. It's my opinion they generally just rely on their team and go with who their scouts or possibly assistants target. I know Burke said as much about drafting Bobby Ryan.

BURKE

Bryzgalov:

While I agree it sucked to lose him for nothing, we cannot exactly measure what kind of effect this may have had on Anaheim's ability to attract free agents. Burke supposedly promised Bryz he'd be a starter somewhere and delivered. He also likely promised Hiller the backup role and delivered. Anaheim is often mentioned by players and prospects as a high-class organization and I think Burke was a part of attaining that reputation.

Bertuzzi/Schneider:

What else was he to do? He signed them to replace Nieds/Selanne who were pondering retirement. He still wanted to compete. If Bert had found chemistry with Getz/Perry that could have been an awesome line; unfortunately, he didn't. I do prefer a GM who takes a gamble and loses, than one who only makes the "safe play".

AndyMac:

Blame Scotty and Teemu for this one. Without Teemu, Andy really wasn't doing much and didn't really click with different linemates. When Scott Niedermayer tells you he wants to play, you find the space. That's all Burke did.

Even if Burke inherited a lot of talent, he still changed the complexion of this team, bringing them out of the Disney era and installing his personality, bringing in his coach and brought them to the Cup.

MURRAY

Pronger:

While I wasn't a fan of losing Pronger, Murray did get a very nice return (could be an awesome return depending how the players pan out). The return will be a big piece to having a quick, mini-rebuild instead of a full one.

Whitney:

This was a gamble that didn't pan out. What I like, however, is unlike a lot of GMs who won't re-trade a guy they acquired in a significant move so soon afterwards, BM has no problem shipping him right back out when he saw he wasn't the answer. Visnovsky looked great for us last season and barring injury should put up a lot of points this year.

Giguere:

I hated to see him go, but that took care of the goalie carousel finally and established Hiller as the man for the future. He got him signed to a nice deal IMO, also.

I think Bob has done a pretty good job with what he has been given and re-shaped the team rather quickly. If he does his job to bolster the defense, we are a contender again this year IMO with a re-stocked prospect cupboard. Hard to argue with that.

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06-28-2010, 09:01 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
Yeah, he said he didn't want to be too active the first couple of days where players tend to get overpaid. But this year is different, we have some cap space and that the Ducks are interested in Paul Martin isn't exactly any huge guess. And Martin is likely to sign the very first couple of days of free agency. We weren't looking for impact players last year, that should differ now.
Well, i guess i wont be too worried if the people we want still arent signed. Ill just be worried if all those guys start getting signed on the first few days and the Ducks havent made any progress/improvements.

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06-30-2010, 10:46 PM
  #28
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Burke with another great trade to get Versteeg, Murray did get us Jaffray so its neck and neck

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06-30-2010, 10:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Burke with another great trade to get Versteeg, Murray did get us Jaffray so its neck and neck
It's a nice deal for the Leafs, but it's far from great. All three had some pretty decent potential for the Leafs, but more than that, that's three more assets they've burned up(that they'd want to trade, anyway). They're basically down to Kaberle now to acquire more top-6 forward(it's arguable they only have one first line guy and maybe two or three seconds).

Also, Murray also didn't trade away 2nd overall, 32nd overall and another potential top-5 pick next year for a one dimensional sniper. That one could hurt the Leafs for a long time. Not to mention that they Jaffray trade was Murray's way of fixing one of Burke's biggest **** ups as Ducks GM.

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06-30-2010, 10:55 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Burke with another great trade to get Versteeg, Murray did get us Jaffray so its neck and neck
Poor excuse, but it`s easier now to get some good F, Burke is lacking, from CHI, because they need cap space for Hjalmarson/Niemi.

I`m sure Bob would get us Campbell, but i`m hoping it won`t happen.

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06-30-2010, 11:03 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
It's a nice deal for the Leafs, but it's far from great. All three had some pretty decent potential for the Leafs, but more than that, that's three more assets they've burned up(that they'd want to trade, anyway). They're basically down to Kaberle now to acquire more top-6 forward(it's arguable they only have one first line guy and maybe two or three seconds).

Also, Murray also didn't trade away 2nd overall, 32nd overall and another potential top-5 pick next year for a one dimensional sniper. That one could hurt the Leafs for a long time. Not to mention that they Jaffray trade was Murray's way of fixing one of Burke's biggest **** ups as Ducks GM.
They traded quantity for quality, those assets = Sexton, Mcgregor etc
Kaberle is not the only trade asset they have, Beauch or Komisarek could get them another top 6 forward and that D will still be stacked
Oh and bring up the #2 like anyone is a fortune teller and could have predicted that the team will flop like that besides that id take Kessel over any unproven talent.
Murray fixed Burkes f-ups? Wasnt Murray around when that pick was drafted? Wasnt Murray one of the heads of the team in charge of drafting the players? Its pretty clear that you are running out reasons to defend you're idol

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06-30-2010, 11:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
Burke with another great trade to get Versteeg, Murray did get us Jaffray so its neck and neck
Your tunnel vision is absolutely remarkable. Remember the guy in charge when Macmillan was drafted?

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Old
06-30-2010, 11:20 PM
  #33
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Burkie is well on his way to building a cap-max team that isn't good enough to compete, has a completely barren prospect pipeline and gets average picks. I seriously doubt this would be his way to going about building a team if he didn't have MLSE breathing down his back. He'll be run out of town in less than a year.

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06-30-2010, 11:21 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk316 View Post
They traded quantity for quality, those assets = Sexton, Mcgregor etc
Kaberle is not the only trade asset they have, Beauch or Komisarek could get them another top 6 forward and that D will still be stacked
Oh and bring up the #2 like anyone is a fortune teller and could have predicted that the team will flop like that besides that id take Kessel over any unproven talent.
Murray fixed Burkes f-ups? Wasnt Murray around when that pick was drafted? Wasnt Murray one of the heads of the team in charge of drafting the players? Its pretty clear that you are running out reasons to defend you're idol
Well, quantity for quality is one way of looking at it. But the three prospects are no slouches, and many Leaf fans are upset to see Stalberg go. We'll see how it turns out, but it's far from a great trade, for either side.

As far as Beauchemin and Komisarek, not only will Burke probably not trade them, but who would take them? Beauchemin is coming off a miserable year, and has a very hefty cap hit. He's in a very similar situation to Jason Blake for us. Komisarek and Lupul are also in similar situations. Both have very lengthy contracts with big cap hits, and coming off seasons where they missed a lot of time due to injury(and very serious injuries as well). You'd be hard pressed to find too many teams lining up for either defenseman.

And for a team that just picked 7th overall, it's not hard to see trading two firsts and a second for Phil the Thrill might end badly. Realists knew that the playoffs were a pipedream for the Leafs, and that Burke should be rebuilding the club instead of going for the quick fix. That trade might have cost him not one, but potentially two franchise players. That's not how you rebuild. And yes, of course you'd take Kessel over Seguin.

As for Murray, yes he was with the team, but his role was as Burke's right hand man and no, he wasn't in charge of scouting. Not to mention Burke made all the calls and it was his idea to draft a future checking line forward when we had few promising young defensemen in the system.


Now, the bolded part is just funny. You've actually defended the Phil Kessel trade, so maybe you're not running out of ways to defend your idol(personally I liked Murray exactly as much as I liked and still like Burke), but you're definitely either exposing your bias or hockey knowledge(lack thereof) in doing so. What next, the Andy McDonald trade was a good one too?

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Old
06-30-2010, 11:23 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Clueless View Post
Burkie is well on his way to building a cap-max team that isn't good enough to compete, has a completely barren prospect pipeline and gets average picks. I seriously doubt this would be his way to going about building a team if he didn't have MLSE breathing down his back. He'll be run out of town in less than a year.
No, he probably would be. Burke isn't a guy who really rebuilds, he just builds, and uses the assets best to his disposal. Now, it's wide open, but I could honestly see the Leafs make some noise next year, depending on the Kaberle situation, free agent frenzy and the overall health of the team. If they can get another good forward for Kaberle, sign one or two on top of that, and get guys like Komisarek back in full health, they might have something there. They're really just lacking offense, and if they can add it, they can definitely make that 2011 pick not a good one at all.

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06-30-2010, 11:31 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
No, he probably would be. Burke isn't a guy who really rebuilds, he just builds, and uses the assets best to his disposal. Now, it's wide open, but I could honestly see the Leafs make some noise next year, depending on the Kaberle situation, free agent frenzy and the overall health of the team. If they can get another good forward for Kaberle, sign one or two on top of that, and get guys like Komisarek back in full health, they might have something there. They're really just lacking offense, and if they can add it, they can definitely make that 2011 pick not a good one at all.
If they trade Kaberle, they'll have the most stone-handed defense in the league. Phaneuf, Komi, Beauch, Schenn.. all guys with very little in the way of a transition game, breakout passing or PPQB'ing ability. I don't think the forward they'll get for him will be good enough to make up for that and improve their overall offense.

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06-30-2010, 11:32 PM
  #37
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I think they both have their flaws. Burke is a loudmouthed blowhard who cant manage the salary cap very well but at least he has the stones to make moves.

Murray seems to be a wait and see type guy when it comes to signings, i.e. last FA day. Murray also seems to play it on the cheap when it comes to contracts, i.e. Ryan fiasco. I will give Murray a chance tomorrow but I dont have much faith.

It would not surprise me if we didnt get one top FA agent and also lose Koivu. I would be willing to bet that we sign some lower tiered free agent on D and then try to get by with Sbisa and Eminger in the top 4.

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Old
06-30-2010, 11:42 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Mostly Clueless View Post
If they trade Kaberle, they'll have the most stone-handed defense in the league. Phaneuf, Komi, Beauch, Schenn.. all guys with very little in the way of a transition game, breakout passing or PPQB'ing ability. I don't think the forward they'll get for him will be good enough to make up for that and improve their overall offense.
I'd definitely say Phaneuf is a good offensive defenseman, and good enough to QB that powerplay(he did it pretty much his whole career in Calgary) and add an offensive boost. But, yeah, after that it doesn't look good, although I definitely like that Gunnarsson.

However, what else are they to do? They're not going to trade Phaneuf or Schenn, and they can't trade the other two. And, with the prospects they have left, they're either too good to trade away or not good enough to net anything. Trading Kaberle definitely sucks, but given the return, it can make a lot of sense, especially since he's going to be a UFA in exactly a year, and it wouldn't shock me in the least to see him return to Toronto.

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06-30-2010, 11:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Well, quantity for quality is one way of looking at it. But the three prospects are no slouches, and many Leaf fans are upset to see Stalberg go. We'll see how it turns out, but it's far from a great trade, for either side.

As far as Beauchemin and Komisarek, not only will Burke probably not trade them, but who would take them? Beauchemin is coming off a miserable year, and has a very hefty cap hit. He's in a very similar situation to Jason Blake for us. Komisarek and Lupul are also in similar situations. Both have very lengthy contracts with big cap hits, and coming off seasons where they missed a lot of time due to injury(and very serious injuries as well). You'd be hard pressed to find too many teams lining up for either defenseman.

And for a team that just picked 7th overall, it's not hard to see trading two firsts and a second for Phil the Thrill might end badly. Realists knew that the playoffs were a pipedream for the Leafs, and that Burke should be rebuilding the club instead of going for the quick fix. That trade might have cost him not one, but potentially two franchise players. That's not how you rebuild. And yes, of course you'd take Kessel over Seguin.

As for Murray, yes he was with the team, but his role was as Burke's right hand man and no, he wasn't in charge of scouting. Not to mention Burke made all the calls and it was his idea to draft a future checking line forward when we had few promising young defensemen in the system.


Now, the bolded part is just funny. You've actually defended the Phil Kessel trade, so maybe you're not running out of ways to defend your idol(personally I liked Murray exactly as much as I liked and still like Burke), but you're definitely either exposing your bias or hockey knowledge(lack thereof) in doing so. What next, the Andy McDonald trade was a good one too?
Im defending Burke on that trade because it could have gone either way, he was trading unknown draft picks and his team was actually decent on paper and more than likely looked like a middle of the road draft finish, you are defending Murray on horrible known acquisitions, low balling every asset we have, not getting any defensemen when we had probably the worst D in the league, and no significant FA signings
Burke has always said his "staff" is responsible for his draft picks and dont act like you do not know this. Murray more than likely was a bigger reason he was drafted than Burke

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06-30-2010, 11:55 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
I'd definitely say Phaneuf is a good offensive defenseman, and good enough to QB that powerplay(he did it pretty much his whole career in Calgary) and add an offensive boost. But, yeah, after that it doesn't look good, although I definitely like that Gunnarsson.
He gets his points with his shot on the PP, he was never the QB when i've seen them. And while he may be a good offensive dman, he isn't much of a puckmover.

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However, what else are they to do? They're not going to trade Phaneuf or Schenn, and they can't trade the other two. And, with the prospects they have left, they're either too good to trade away or not good enough to net anything.
This is exactly the problem. They don't have enough assets to turn the team into one that can realistically challenge in the playoffs. All they're doing is making their picks worse.

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Trading Kaberle definitely sucks, but given the return, it can make a lot of sense, especially since he's going to be a UFA in exactly a year, and it wouldn't shock me in the least to see him return to Toronto.
If Kaberle indeed ends up signing back with them then it's a great move but i have a hard time seeing it with the way they've handled him.

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Old
07-01-2010, 12:06 AM
  #41
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Im defending Burke on that trade because it could have gone either way, he was trading unknown draft picks and his team was actually decent on paper and more than likely looked like a middle of the road draft finish, you are defending Murray on horrible known acquisitions, low balling every asset we have, not getting any defensemen when we had probably the worst D in the league, and no significant FA signings
Burke has always said his "staff" is responsible for his draft picks and dont act like you do not know this. Murray more than likely was a bigger reason he was drafted than Burke
Kevin Lowe still gets knocked for giving up the package he did for Penner(as he should), why shouldn't Burke? At the end of the day, there wasn't much reason to suspect they would make the playoffs(terrible forwards and Kessel was supposed to miss significant time), and he has possibly set the Leafs back many years with that trade. But, we'll see.

As for Murray, well, half of that isn't even true, as he acquired a #1 defenseman in Visnovsky for Ryan Whitney, and did add another guy in Aaron Ward, and our defense wasn't the worst in the league at all, not to mention that acquiring quality defenders through trades is a little easier said than done. It's definitely something he needs to do, but I'm not at all choked that he didn't trade away a second rounder, or worse yet one of the firsts, for one of the impending UFAs or another guy on the block. We're not a contender yet, so nothing is wrong with building for the future. But, yes, he definitely needs to add something of quality through free agency, and I'm hopeful he can get something done.

As for the drafting part, Burke saying his staff is responsible isn't exactly true. That was something he said about the 2005 draft, when he joined the team just prior to it, and didn't want to interfere, as he didn't work with our staff on it. The GM of every team is very involved with the draft, and ultimately he has final say. Murray was definitely not more of a reason MacMillan was drafted than Burke. Murray had input, for sure, but Burke was ultimately the guy who made that call, and it was a terrible one. Burke's own spotty drafting record doesn't support your theory much as it is. It's way too early to judge Murray just yet, but thus far it looks like he's added some high quality guys to a prospect pool that was looking very gloomy.

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Old
07-13-2010, 04:02 PM
  #42
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Bertuzzi/Schneider:

What else was he to do? He signed them to replace Nieds/Selanne who were pondering retirement. He still wanted to compete. If Bert had found chemistry with Getz/Perry that could have been an awesome line; unfortunately, he didn't. I do prefer a GM who takes a gamble and loses, than one who only makes the "safe play".
At the time, the idea of Bertuzzi signing was so he could replace Selanne. But in hindsight, he ended up replacing Dustin Penner for basically the same money and it's not like Bertuzzi took a 1 year deal either, both Bertuzzi and Schneider were signed to 2 year deals instead of 1 year deals which doesn't make sense since there was always the chance of both Selanne and Niedermayer coming back which they did. It doesn't make sense to sign a washed-up Bertuzzi to a $4 million contract when he could've easily been had for possibly even half the price.

Instead of being on the 2nd line with McDonald and Kunitz, Bertuzzi ended up in the 1st line with Getzlaf and Perry and the main role of that line was to go to the corners and use their bodies to control the puck down-low. In that case, I'd take Penner over Bertuzzi even if it cost me $4.25 million a year for the next 5 years. a)At least Penner was willing to go to the corners, something that Bertuzzi wasn't willing to do after that Steve Moore incident. b)Penner already has great chemistry with Getzlaf and Perry starting in Portland so having Bertuzzi try and find chemistry with Getzlaf and Perry was taking a step backwards instead of forwards. c)Penner's just younger so there's that longevity factor.

Overall, it doesn't make sense for Burke to replace Selanne, even on a temporary basis, by going about signing a washed-up has-been to a $4 million contract when he could've easily been had for significantly less. If Burke was keen on temporarily replacing Selanne and he still wanted Bertuzzi, he would've signed him to a 1 year deal maybe worth around $1.5 to $2 million because of the offense he had generated the previous year with Detroit and not a 2 year, $4 million contract. That's why I think this deal was more of a heart move by Burke than a head move. Because he knew Bertuzzi before when he was in Vancouver and defended him on the Moore incident.

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Old
07-14-2010, 02:16 AM
  #43
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I really like Murray. Burke did a great job at pushing a good team over the top with some key moves, but other than that he was a bit too idealistic to be that effective building and maintaining an effective organization without a good amount of luck and a lot of money. He valued toughness and weird little intangibles, which is fine when you're trying to fine tune a champion and give them some identity, but it's not always the best policy. There's more to hockey than finding guys you like who play with heart. A lot more. Like being good. Luckily we had most of that down and Pronger kind of fell into his lap.

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07-14-2010, 05:00 PM
  #44
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Since Dirks thread is gone I'll just post my response here where it's not totally OT:

We might not agree at all on some topics... Having your opinion about certain things is fine... Heck, I think even I would tone the Murray hype down if I thought there was one. I just don't see how Murray is any better liked than Burke or any other former GM of this team... I mostly see him being worshiped in this thread, which isn't strange...

Just because people like the signing of Josh Green or Toni Lydman doesn't mean Murray gets godlike treatment... I just don't have anything against the signings he has done this offseason or the Eminger/MacMillan trade for that matter. But I'd be dissapointed if he's finished now.

Again, everyone should be free to have their own opinons. I just think you've made yours clear already quite a few times... With that said, you should stay here. Heck, not even I have you on "ignore" yet

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07-14-2010, 06:14 PM
  #45
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I like what BM did for us after Burkie abandoned ship and left us in major cap hell. BM has done ok. That first trade deadline BM got us Nokes, Wiz, and I think Christensen. Out of those 3 only Wiz is still with us (sorta). HE did get us out of that cup hell but I havent seen him do much else since then. Oh well we will see what happens..

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07-17-2010, 05:21 AM
  #46
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hindsight being 20/20, and even if we didnt get vis, i would be ok with murray doing the whitney trade again. i dont think whitney was that bad, and started picking it up at the end of the season for edmonton, though people would argue thats only because he was angry at being traded, but they'd only be partially right. if kunitz is so much more worthless than whitney and i don't think tangradi is going to pan out.

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07-17-2010, 12:42 PM
  #47
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Quote:
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hindsight being 20/20, and even if we didnt get vis, i would be ok with murray doing the whitney trade again. i dont think whitney was that bad, and started picking it up at the end of the season for edmonton, though people would argue thats only because he was angry at being traded, but they'd only be partially right. if kunitz is so much more worthless than whitney and i don't think tangradi is going to pan out.
Well, I have to disagree with you on that. I would not do the Whitney trade again if I was Murray simply because of Tangradi's developmental progress and I think giving up Kunitz, our only legitimate top-6 LW at the time, was a step backwards which created a hole on that LW spot that's still not completely filled yet and like you said in hindsight, Whitney never really worked well in Carlyle's system.

As a Murray supporter for the time being, this is probably the worst trade that Murray's made during his tenure here looking back. It looked like a fair deal on both sides at the time but Whitney was such an enigma here that Murray had to swap Whitney for an older guy, Lubo, just so Niedermayer could have some help and didn't have to do everything by himself.


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07-17-2010, 01:17 PM
  #48
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hindsight being 20/20, and even if we didnt get vis, i would be ok with murray doing the whitney trade again. i dont think whitney was that bad, and started picking it up at the end of the season for edmonton, though people would argue thats only because he was angry at being traded, but they'd only be partially right. if kunitz is so much more worthless than whitney and i don't think tangradi is going to pan out.
That was a bad trade looking back. Kunitz was a good LW and Tangradi would either play on the big club soon or be included as a good asset in a trade.

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Old
07-17-2010, 01:24 PM
  #49
The Fuhr*
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hamilton,Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beasy1975 View Post
I like what BM did for us after Burkie abandoned ship and left us in major cap hell. BM has done ok. That first trade deadline BM got us Nokes, Wiz, and I think Christensen. Out of those 3 only Wiz is still with us (sorta). HE did get us out of that cup hell but I havent seen him do much else since then. Oh well we will see what happens..
Burke left you with Getzlaf, Perry and Pronger signed
Ryan in the system
Hiller emergin

And tons of expiring deals for Murray to shape the team in his image around the core

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Old
07-17-2010, 01:39 PM
  #50
bumperkisser
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Originally Posted by The Fuhr View Post
Burke left you with Getzlaf, Perry and Pronger signed
Ryan in the system
Hiller emergin

And tons of expiring deals for Murray to shape the team in his image around the core
getzlaf and perry would be signed by any GM.. saying thats a "good" sign by burke is retarded... the pronger trade was a good one but he didnt BUILD our cup team.. he tweaked it with his own ideas but the main core was already there

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