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Cheechoo, Nokelainen, Vandermeer, Koistinen, Kotalik

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Old
06-28-2010, 03:59 PM
  #126
Alberta Yote
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
Whatever happened to Vandermeer? I always thought he was a solid, bottom pairing guy? Was it injuries? Or is he just a cap casualty? Not fit in with Tippett's system?
He makes too much money for a bottom pairing guy on a team with no money and prospects ready to take his spot.

And Maloney is frantically trying to find some way, any way, to keep Michalek and/or Lombardi.

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06-28-2010, 04:00 PM
  #127
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I think Cheechoo was hit hard by injuries...knee and back.....

Reminds me a bit about Anson Carter both had good accleration and a good shot(not overly speedy esp due to injuries.......but slowed down enough so these lose their edge over the defenders.

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06-28-2010, 04:05 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Risotto View Post
3 main reasons, in my opinion

1) having thornton as his center helped his goal tallies

2) injuries have affected his game

3) probably the least talked about reason, his 56 goal season was a by product of the new rules after the lock out. a lot of players had career years in the 05-06 season because teams were not sure how to defend with the emphasis on calling hooking, holding penalties. its not just Cheechoo who had a career high that season. Jason Spezza had a career high 71 assists that year (never cracked 60 ever before or since), Gomez 33 goals that year (never cracked 20 ever before or since), Gionta had 48 goals (never cracekd 30 ever before or since), just to name a few who had their best year right after the lockout. teams have since adjusted.
#3 is a solid theory, but the emphasis on hooking/obstruction-style penalties really only benefits players that are quick enough to catch the defense out of position or at least force them to skate. cheechoo was never that type of player. his game was more about finding the quiet spot on the ice and utilizing his shot rather than forcing the defense into awkward positions.

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06-28-2010, 04:06 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by caley View Post
Boy that was a helluva deal Sutter made for Jokinen.

Trades Matt Lombardi, Brandon Prust, and Brandon Gormley for Olli Jokinen
Then he traded Jim Vandermeer to get Prust back
Then he trades Jokinen and Prust for Kotalik and Higgins

So, essentially he traded

Lombardi, Prust, Gormley, Jokinen, Vandermeer and Prust again to return Higgins and Kotalik

And now Kotalik's contract is going to sit as dead-space on the Flames' cap and if they don't re-sign Higgins that will be all to show for a whole pile of players.
You included intermediates, so its actually more like:

Lombardi, Prust, Gormley for Kotalik and Higgins.

Still pretty bad, especially when you consider we could have just let Jokinen walk and pick up Higgins as a UFA.

I still think this is easy to analyze in hind-sight. Jokinen used be a 70+ point center, and, at the time, it seemed like a good move. The only player we really miss is Lombardi (and cap space).

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06-28-2010, 04:30 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by RemoAZ View Post
He was good for about the first month or two of the season. Then he went in the tank. He wasn't physical at all and lost a step. It must have been an injury because he just disappeared all of a sudden. It was really weird.
I didn't think he was that bad. He is a decent enough bottom pairing defenceman. If his contract were representative of his place on the team, we would probably keep him as a spare part. He's paid far too much for this role, and we need the dough for other things. On top of that, there is likely to be at least one rookie D that makes the big club next year.

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06-28-2010, 04:33 PM
  #131
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Vandermeer is a solid bottom pairing defenseman. He's tough as nails and so long as he's given limited minutes, he plays mistake free hockey. That said, he's over paid by 500k-1m dollars. Thus, he's on waivers. If you've got the room and the need, he's not a bad pick-up. Really a solid vet. Just one that should be making about 800k less than he is.

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06-28-2010, 04:37 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Sutter has made far more good moves for the Flames than he has bad ones. Please keep that in mind when trashing him incessantly about the Jokinen trade.
Well put. Darryl has made 2 bad moves in Calgary.

1. Trading Jokinen for Higgins/Kotalik

2. Not retaining Cammi

But he easily makes up for it with these 2 trades.

1. Kipper for a 2nd rounder

2. Bourque for a 2nd rounder

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Old
06-28-2010, 04:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by iggyman12 View Post
He was panicking to try and get some scoring. We also have Higgins who we will be able to sign for cheap and hopefully he can hit 30 goals again this year.
Higgins has never scored 30. He had 27 goals in 2007-08 but it wasn't a season cut short by injury so it doesn't really count. I think if he even gets a fourth highest career mark (somewhere between 13 and 21) you should be happy. He can do it but I don't see him ever hitting 30.

Edit: Sorry, just realized a bunch of people pointed out the same thing.

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06-28-2010, 04:43 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by dmacin2 View Post
He has never scored 30 and he will never score 20 again
He'll be a 25 goal scorer several more times in his career. Wasn't he pretty good defensively in Montreal? I remember thinking he would be a good fit with Kesler on the Canucks, I may have been mistaken, his value seems to have dropped as rapidly as Ryder's

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06-28-2010, 04:47 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by iggyman12 View Post
Well put. Darryl has made 2 bad moves in Calgary.

1. Trading Jokinen for Higgins/Kotalik

2. Not retaining Cammi

But he easily makes up for it with these 2 trades.

1. Kipper for a 2nd rounder

2. Bourque for a 2nd rounder
You don't think the trading of Phaneuf was a bad move? Or the one to get Jokinen in the first place? He's also brought in plenty of lousy FA's that he thought were going to revive themselves (Amonte, Friesen, etc.). Plus the Huselius, Tanguay pickups only looked good because anyone you stick with Jarome Iginla becomes a scoring star and those two are ample proof. But now, that luxury isn't quite as strong and Daryll will spend a while digging himself deeper in a hole.

The main reason all these moves have seemed necessary is because the drafting has been major weak under Sutter. The moves he's done are not that of a well run franchise because they wouldn't need to tweak so often, but Sutter does cause he's got hardly any young talent to fall back on. Ken King and Sutter are the duo that will send Flame fans to the madhouse. Sutter has lived and died by the trade and the FA market because he has to. And now, it's all catching up to him.

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06-28-2010, 04:47 PM
  #136
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Sutter effectively traded a first and Lombardi for a -1M in cap space for 4 years. That's the progressive thinking this team needs.

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06-28-2010, 04:48 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by caley View Post
Boy that was a helluva deal Sutter made for Jokinen.

Trades Matt Lombardi, Brandon Prust, and Brandon Gormley for Olli Jokinen
Then he traded Jim Vandermeer to get Prust back
Then he trades Jokinen and Prust for Kotalik and Higgins

So, essentially he traded

Lombardi, Prust, Gormley, Jokinen, Vandermeer and Prust again to return Higgins and Kotalik

And now Kotalik's contract is going to sit as dead-space on the Flames' cap and if they don't re-sign Higgins that will be all to show for a whole pile of players.
I have no clue why Sutter didn't just hold onto Jokinen for the rest of the season. He would have been a UFA and off the books. Now Sutter is going to buy Kotalik out, and have $1.5M count against the cap until 2014. What is Sutter thinking?

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Old
06-28-2010, 04:50 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by HellsBells View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Its funny you think Phaneuf had all this value, all the while being one of the most overrated players in the league and terrible defensively.

Phaneuf's value takes a big hit because he's severely overpaid on top of being "overrated and terrible defensively". If you can't see that, maybe YOU ARE delusional.
When you've got a young player who can put up 50 points. He's got value. Whether he's overpaid or not. I highly doubt that Sutter couldn't have got more if he waited until the offseason.

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Old
06-28-2010, 04:51 PM
  #139
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I'll take Cheech at league min on any team. Not so much at $3M.

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06-28-2010, 05:04 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
Higgins has never scored 30. He had 27 goals in 2007-08 but it wasn't a season cut short by injury so it doesn't really count. I think if he even gets a fourth highest career mark (somewhere between 13 and 21) you should be happy. He can do it but I don't see him ever hitting 30.

Edit: Sorry, just realized a bunch of people pointed out the same thing.
Higgins had a fair amount of power play duty during that season (almost 1st unit type minutes). 12 of his 27 goals came off the power play. One can almost say the same about the previous season as well. Factor in also that the Habs had a fantastic power play during these seasons Higgins scored 20+ goals.

He's a decent enough bottom six forward - but to expect him to score even over 20 goals in a season without meaningful power play duty would be a bit of stretch (and assuming the Flames PP improves as well - as it's been decidedly average at best not just this past season but the past few seasons as well with Phaneuf).

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06-28-2010, 05:05 PM
  #141
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Oilers could use Vandermeer

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06-28-2010, 05:07 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Ice Cream Man View Post
Sutter has made far more good moves for the Flames than he has bad ones. Please keep that in mind when trashing him incessantly about the Jokinen trade.
This is the dumbest thing I've heard. That's like saying Lowe gets a free pass for the Horcoff contract because of the Pronger trade and Hemsky contract.

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06-28-2010, 05:09 PM
  #143
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Oilers could use Vandermeer
No they couldn't. He's brutal. Bad on the Flames, poor on the Yotes. Old, slow, overpaid. We got rid of Staois - why another headache contract? Might as well sign David Hale too!

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06-28-2010, 05:26 PM
  #144
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what do you think the odds are cheechoo would sign for .750-1 mil for 1 yr in detroit to resurrect his career ala cleary, eaves. He could help what should be a solid scoring third line and maybe even move up to the second. But I would love to see a Hudler-Abdelkader-Cheechoo third line.

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06-28-2010, 05:36 PM
  #145
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Wouldn't mind having Cheechoo on the Canucks. With the departure of Bernier and Grabner in the Ballard trade, there are definately spots to be filled at RW.

Yes, I know he played with Big Joe. But the guy still scored 56 goals!

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06-28-2010, 05:39 PM
  #146
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The only player I would like the leafs to look at out of those is Koistinen. He could be the 7th defenseman this season, especially if we move Kaberle. He's performed decently, given the amount of ice time Florida has given him.
PLEASEEEE TAKE HIM!!!

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06-28-2010, 05:44 PM
  #147
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Wouldn't mind having Cheechoo on the Canucks. With the departure of Bernier and Grabner in the Ballard trade, there are definately spots to be filled at RW.

Yes, I know he played with Big Joe. But the guy still scored 56 goals!
You never heard of BJ Macdonald have you?

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06-28-2010, 05:53 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by One Trick Pony View Post
This is the dumbest thing I've heard. That's like saying Lowe gets a free pass for the Horcoff contract because of the Pronger trade and Hemsky contract.
Nobody is saying Sutter is getting a free pass. Look at the Flames roster before Sutter took over. Now look at it. The improvement is huge.

Also, keep in mind that this is the first Sutter team to have not made the playoffs (other than when he first took over the Flames in the 2nd half of the season, at which point it was too late). Compare that to Lowes record.

Some good moves by Sutter:

Leopold and a 3rd for Bouwmeester (I know he had a bad season, but this was considered at very good move at the time).
2nd rounder for Ray Bourque
2nd rounder for Mikka Kiprusoff
Leopold and a 2nd for Tanguay
Tanguay for a 1st and 2nd
1st for Cammalleri

That is just off the top of my head. Sutter has made some very good moves in the past, despite some of his recent poor trades. IMO GM's don't turn into idiots in a 1 year span. Because of his great transactions in the past, I'm ready to give Sutter another year. Believe me, I'm a huge critic of some of his signings, like Amonte and Sarich, and of his trades for Higgins/Kotalik and Staios (the Phaneuf trade was good).

I don't blame him for theLombardi for Jokinen trade. Most HFers would have made that deal in a second AT THE TIME. Hind-sight seems to be HFs gold standard on judging trades, even though it is not always the best way.

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06-28-2010, 06:07 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Cephalusc View Post
Nobody is saying Sutter is getting a free pass. Look at the Flames roster before Sutter took over. Now look at it. The improvement is huge.

Also, keep in mind that this is the first Sutter team to have not made the playoffs (other than when he first took over the Flames in the 2nd half of the season, at which point it was too late). Compare that to Lowes record.

Some good moves by Sutter:

Leopold and a 3rd for Bouwmeester (I know he had a bad season, but this was considered at very good move at the time).
2nd rounder for Ray Bourque
2nd rounder for Mikka Kiprusoff
Leopold and a 2nd for Tanguay
Tanguay for a 1st and 2nd
1st for Cammalleri

That is just off the top of my head. Sutter has made some very good moves in the past, despite some of his recent poor trades. IMO GM's don't turn into idiots in a 1 year span. Because of his great transactions in the past, I'm ready to give Sutter another year. Believe me, I'm a huge critic of some of his signings, like Amonte and Sarich, and of his trades for Higgins/Kotalik and Staios (the Phaneuf trade was good).

I don't blame him for theLombardi for Jokinen trade. Most HFers would have made that deal in a second AT THE TIME. Hind-sight seems to be HFs gold standard on judging trades, even though it is not always the best way.
Sutter's team hasn't won a playoff series in the four seasons they qualified, and they haven't finished in the top half of the playoff bracket since 2006, that is hardly a measure of success at all. They are very soon to be the Toronto Maple Leafs of 2005-2008.

Calgary is in desperate need of a rebuild, but their GM and fans are in total denial of it.

Whatever, ignorance is bliss.....I guess.

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06-28-2010, 06:09 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by One Trick Pony View Post
This is the dumbest thing I've heard. That's like saying Lowe gets a free pass for the Horcoff contract because of the Pronger trade and Hemsky contract.
You've completely missed the point.

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