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Old
07-19-2010, 02:37 PM
  #251
pete goegan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fro View Post
if you think we're harsh on Howson...read the trade thread with philly fan going off on holmgren...funnnnnnnny schtuff there
All of the Zherdev to Philly threads have been loaded with vitriol toward him. I was really surprised at how unhappy they are about a guy that got them to the Cup finals. He gets no credit, at all, only blame for the goalie situation.

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07-19-2010, 02:52 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
I checked out his salary situation since I wasn't sure on it. He makes $5 million this upcoming season and then is a RFA. Since they won't sign Kovalchuk, who's all but signed in LA, I'm guessing NJ will have enough money for Parise. If not, he's definitely a player everyone would love to have, even if we don't need a winger, you make room for a player like that. They don't seem to be in too much cap trouble though, unfortunately.
Even with Kovy, based on the numbers we're hearing to this point, it doesn't looke like they are in much danger of losing Parise.

Speaking of which, while everyone is saying "Bettman needs to do something about these contracts, " do what? The CBA was negotiated between the parties. I suppose they could arbitrate this point to argue that these lengthy deals were not intended, but given that other CBA's cap contract length (the NBA in particular) its not as if these sophisticated parties weren't aware that there were ways to prevent this type of manipulation.

The NHL CBA is still a work in progress and I'm already seeing agents suggesting that the hard cap should be abandoned in favor of a luxury tax system with greater revenue sharing. And it sounds like this is exactly what Donald Fehr will push for if he's leading the charger for the NHLPA. Look at the MLB and ask yourself if this will work out better for small markets.

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07-19-2010, 02:55 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
All of the Zherdev to Philly threads have been loaded with vitriol toward him. I was really surprised at how unhappy they are about a guy that got them to the Cup finals. He gets no credit, at all, only blame for the goalie situation.
Well, much as I hate to defend Philly fans, the fact is that obtaining a goalie is one of the easiest things to do in today's NHL. We're seeing solid goalies head to Russia because there is an overabundance of decent, cheap goaltending talent. And yet Philly still can't seem to find an answer to a problem that has plagued them for 20+ years--a problem, I might add, that their prior GM also couldnt' seem to solve.

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07-19-2010, 03:14 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
The NHL CBA is still a work in progress and I'm already seeing agents suggesting that the hard cap should be abandoned in favor of a luxury tax system with greater revenue sharing. And it sounds like this is exactly what Donald Fehr will push for if he's leading the charger for the NHLPA. Look at the MLB and ask yourself if this will work out better for small markets.
Players union would love anything that would allow the higher revenue teams spend more. Players union is way too powerful and the cap based off of league revenue is dumb. Luxury taxes are dumb as some teams won't use it for player salaries.

Ultimately the difference between the larger and smaller markets will be too large and it will lead to the ruination of the sport.

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Old
07-19-2010, 03:23 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post

(At least we're not getting "Hey, we could have beat that deal with Methot" comments yet from the Chicken Little Crowd here...)
Right, because Howson is not interested in improving this team, the same one that finished in 14th place, so why bother when we already know we're going with the same team?

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Old
07-19-2010, 03:33 PM
  #256
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Right, because Howson is not interested in improving this team, the same one that finished in 14th place, so why bother when we already know we're going with the same team?
We finished 14th in the conference, it's not like there's much to "Chicken Little" about. We've almost hit bottom. The sky has pretty much already fallen.

So are we going to consistently suck or will the "changes" have an impact?

That's our exacting debate going into the season. /yay

At least we get to see some exciting new faces in camp I guess.

At any rate, good for TB. That should help them out. Nice aggressive move. No risk, high potential reward.

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07-19-2010, 04:23 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Players union would love anything that would allow the higher revenue teams spend more. Players union is way too powerful and the cap based off of league revenue is dumb. Luxury taxes are dumb as some teams won't use it for player salaries.

Ultimately the difference between the larger and smaller markets will be too large and it will lead to the ruination of the sport.
Player's union is too powerful? They lost the last CBA negotiations and had a hard cap put in. The current revenue sharing system also doesn't force teams to use it on player salaries--Nashville is a perfect example as they are given revenue sharing ostensibly to get them to be able to spend to the cap midpoint (if you look at the CBA's language, it is clear that was the thought process that led to the revenue sharing system as it stands), but spend significantly less than that amount on player salaries.

There was a pretty interesting study done out of Vanderbilt that suggested that the structure of the revenue-sharing disincentivized spending on player salaries, and it sure seems to have proven true. Yet, if the goal is parity, it is pretty clear that MLB's larger revenue sharing program without a hard cap also is a miserable failure. It has always seemed to me that the solution involves (1) a hard cap (2) greater revenue sharing (3) greater source of revenue to share (i.e. a better TV deal which may just happen next off-season) and (4) a mechanism that incentivizes small market teams that do spend money on improving their product.

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07-19-2010, 04:26 PM
  #258
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Gagne and his large one-year contract is not something we were looking to add to an already crowded top six. Now that the flyers have added another defenseman, though, do we want to revisit the Matt Carle discussion?

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07-19-2010, 04:40 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Gagne and his large one-year contract is not something we were looking to add to an already crowded top six. Now that the flyers have added another defenseman, though, do we want to revisit the Matt Carle discussion?
The more important question is, do they?

With their goaltending still a question mark, why break up a defensive pairing that worked as well as Pronger and Carle unless you are resolving the goaltending issue in the process?

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07-19-2010, 04:47 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
...unless you are resolving the goaltending issue in the process?
Nope, don't see how we could afford to do that.

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Old
07-19-2010, 05:45 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Player's union is too powerful? They lost the last CBA negotiations and had a hard cap put in. The current revenue sharing system also doesn't force teams to use it on player salaries--Nashville is a perfect example as they are given revenue sharing ostensibly to get them to be able to spend to the cap midpoint (if you look at the CBA's language, it is clear that was the thought process that led to the revenue sharing system as it stands), but spend significantly less than that amount on player salaries.
At the same time, it's arguably equally clear that forcing folks to the midpoint wouldn't be accepted either - otherwise the "midpoint" wouldn't matter at all and we'd just have a cap ceiling and cap floor. Nashville's approach, while infuriating to the Canadia Uber Alles crowd and anyone else living in a market that will bear near-extortionate ticket prices, is not only perfectly acceptable under the CBA, but arguably anticipated, planned for, and endorsed by same.

...and yeah, I have to agree, the suggestion that the player's union is too powerful made me laugh. Although Fehr has me a tad worried if he abruptly decides to push for copying the MLB instead of being smart.

In the end, tho, I don't think on-ice talent parity was ever a goal so much as it was a possible fortuitous side benefit. If it ain't there, "oh well, at least costs are relatively stable".

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Old
07-19-2010, 06:41 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Players union would love anything that would allow the higher revenue teams spend more. Players union is way too powerful and the cap based off of league revenue is dumb. Luxury taxes are dumb as some teams won't use it for player salaries.

Ultimately the difference between the larger and smaller markets will be too large and it will lead to the ruination of the sport.
Too Powerful? The organization nearly ceased to function a year ago.

I know nobody likes Unions, but the NHLPA isn't responsible for most of the current CBA's issues.

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Old
07-19-2010, 06:52 PM
  #263
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Here's the breakdown of Kovy's ridiculous 17 year deal.




2010-2011: $6 million

2011-2012: $6 million

2012-2013: $11.5 million

2013-2014: $11.5 million

2014-2015: $11.5 million

2015-2016: $11.5 million

2016-2017: $11.5 million

2017-2018: $10.5 million

2018-2019: $8.5 million

2019-2020: $6.5 million

2020-2021: $3.5 million

2021-2022: $750,000

2022-2023: $550,000

2023-2024: $550,000

2024-2025: $550,000

2025-2026: $550,000

2026-2027: $550,000

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Old
07-19-2010, 06:52 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
I know nobody likes Unions...
Except, maybe, all the people they've helped.

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Old
07-19-2010, 06:56 PM
  #265
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The only thing a union is good for is a union due. They served their time, but now its a pure over indulgent

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Old
07-19-2010, 07:11 PM
  #266
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I hate these ridiculously long term contracts whose only purpose is to circumvent the salary cap. It makes the cap look like a joke. It all started with the ridiculous Dipietro contract and it's getting out of hand. Bettman needs to find a way to put an end to these types of contracts in the next CBA.

Kovalchuk will be 44 when the deal ends. Does anyone honestly think he will still be playing in the NHL, let alone in New Jersey when he's 44?

Quote:
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I completely agree. Big market teams are getting around the salary cap with these types of contracts and I almost think they are betting on another work stoppage. Gary Bettman and the NHL need to take action on these types of contracts sooner rather than later.
Bettman had the chance to curb this before it even started. Once he allowed for the Dipietro contract to go through, he set precedent and allowed for this ridiculous loophole. Once you let Dipietro, Hossa, Luongo, Zetterberg, ect. sign these types of deals you can't just suddenly stop Kovalchuk from doing the same. It sucks, and I hate it, but Bettman should have put an end to this from the start. The league really needs to find a way in the next CBA to deter teams from signing players to ridiculously long term deals whose only purpose is to circumvent the salary cap. Why even have a cap if you're going to allow teams to sign players to 15+ year deals to get around it?

As for the Gagne trade to Tampa. LOL at Holmgren. I know every GM basically had him by the balls, but man Stevie Y fleeced him. Why even take Matt Walker? Don't the Flyers have enough players like him already? Shelley, Carcillo, Laperierre, Hartnell, O'Donnell, Cote (likely will be sent to AHL or traded if possible), Pronger, Richards, more than enough toughness there's really no need for Walker. Guess Holmgren is trying to bring back the broadstreet bullies.


Last edited by Brassard Calder: 07-19-2010 at 07:24 PM.
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Old
07-19-2010, 07:23 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Brassard Calder View Post
I hate these ridiculously long term contracts whose only purpose is to circumvent the salary cap. It makes the cap look like a joke. It all started with the ridiculous Dipietro contract and it's getting out of hand. Bettman needs to find a way to put an end to these types of contracts in the next CBA.

Kovalchuk will be 44 when the deal ends. Does anyone honestly think he will still be playing in the NHL, let alone in New Jersey when he's 44?
Interestingly DiPi's contract was a straight number all the way across if I remember correctly. It actually wasn't circumventing anything, just locking up a player for a long time.

It was when GM's figured they could front load that things got out of hand.

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07-19-2010, 07:35 PM
  #268
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Interestingly DiPi's contract was a straight number all the way across if I remember correctly. It actually wasn't circumventing anything, just locking up a player for a long time.

It was when GM's figured they could front load that things got out of hand.
Good point. If I'm not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere that Bettman at the time was cautious about allowing a deal of such length. Ultimately he allowed it and its bit the Islanders in the butt ever since with Dipietro being injured for most of the contract. And now its haunting the NHL with other players getting ridiculous lengthy deals.

My point is, Bettman should have stepped in when he had the chance. Once he allowed for 15+ year contracts it opened the door for GMs to start front loading the **** out of the deals to circumvent the cap. Despite Dipietro's deal not being front loaded, I believe his contract is what got the ball rolling so to speak and started the slippery slope the NHL has found itself in now with regards to long term contracts.

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07-19-2010, 07:38 PM
  #269
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And is it just me, or is DiPietro the only player who has signed a super long deal, and has been hurt a lot?

If more players who signed these whacky contracts go the DiPietro route, maybe that will be a natural stop/curb to them. It's still pretty early in a lot of these Cap Dodging contracts and the law of averages say at least a few more of these guys gotta get the injury bug.

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Old
07-20-2010, 12:44 AM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brassard Calder View Post
I hate these ridiculously long term contracts whose only purpose is to circumvent the salary cap. It makes the cap look like a joke. It all started with the ridiculous Dipietro contract and it's getting out of hand. Bettman needs to find a way to put an end to these types of contracts in the next CBA.

Kovalchuk will be 44 when the deal ends. Does anyone honestly think he will still be playing in the NHL, let alone in New Jersey when he's 44?



Bettman had the chance to curb this before it even started. Once he allowed for the Dipietro contract to go through, he set precedent and allowed for this ridiculous loophole. Once you let Dipietro, Hossa, Luongo, Zetterberg, ect. sign these types of deals you can't just suddenly stop Kovalchuk from doing the same. It sucks, and I hate it, but Bettman should have put an end to this from the start. The league really needs to find a way in the next CBA to deter teams from signing players to ridiculously long term deals whose only purpose is to circumvent the salary cap. Why even have a cap if you're going to allow teams to sign players to 15+ year deals to get around it?

As for the Gagne trade to Tampa. LOL at Holmgren. I know every GM basically had him by the balls, but man Stevie Y fleeced him. Why even take Matt Walker? Don't the Flyers have enough players like him already? Shelley, Carcillo, Laperierre, Hartnell, O'Donnell, Cote (likely will be sent to AHL or traded if possible), Pronger, Richards, more than enough toughness there's really no need for Walker. Guess Holmgren is trying to bring back the broadstreet bullies.
This is not a players thing. the GM's are doing this to themselves. This is not a CBA issue to be negotiated with the PA. The GM's have to police themselves. This was the basis of the last stoppage, GM's could not control thier spending. The same thing is happening now

Betman works for the owners, how does he convince his bosses when half of them have contracts like this to stop doing it when they dont want to?

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Old
07-20-2010, 07:50 AM
  #271
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Old
07-20-2010, 08:03 AM
  #272
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The return to Philly is Matt Walker (?) and a 4th rounder.

Good deal for Tampa.
Salary numbers, injury concerns aside, this was highway robbery by Tampa... Matt Walker is a fringe bottom pairing defenseman and a fourth rounder for a guy that has over 500 points in just over 660 NHL games.

Both guys are 30.....


Aside from whatever reasons he was moved, this was total robbery.... I would liken it to NBA trades, dumping salary, hell, in the NBA, half the first round picks get traded at the draft or for "future considerations"


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Old
07-20-2010, 09:39 AM
  #273
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Wow today it is like, each big player tries to make the salary cap look like a bigger joke, every year

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Old
07-20-2010, 09:53 AM
  #274
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Salary numbers, injury concerns aside, this was highway robbery by Tampa... Matt Walker is a fringe bottom pairing defenseman and a fourth rounder for a guy that has over 500 points in just over 660 NHL games.

Both guys are 30.....


Aside from whatever reasons he was moved, this was total robbery.... I would liken it to NBA trades, dumping salary, hell, in the NBA, half the first round picks get traded at the draft or for "future considerations"
This move is a good example why Boucher chose Tampa and not the Bluejackets.

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Old
07-20-2010, 10:00 AM
  #275
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This move is a good example why Boucher chose Tampa and not the Bluejackets.
....Especially when you couple it with the fact that Gagne is going to fit into a top six with St. Louis, LeCavalier, Stamkos and Malone.



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