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Toronto/Boston {no savard but yes karberle}

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Old
06-30-2010, 03:06 AM
  #1
Alberta_OReilly_Fan
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Toronto/Boston {no savard but yes karberle}

I think the way things appear to me now... Savard asked for a deal to get closer to his family and this isnt a situation where Boston felt desperate to move him. Unfortunately for Savard, it seems Ottawa and Toronto have said they dont want/cant afford him for the price it will take

Savard isnt Burke's type of player I guess... Not big enough to committ 4 mill a year to for the next 6-7 years... and Ottawa hasnt dealt Spezza yet so cant blame them for not wanting Savard unless they do deal Spezza.

I havent seen any real evidence Savard is desperate to leave Boston... other then it seems he wants to get closer to his kids. If its not possible then its not possible.

I have actually heard Chiarelli say Thomas wants to stay in Boston... and then I analyzed the goalie market and I see only Philly and San Jose in a situation where they want to pay money for a new number 1 goalie. Nabakov and Turco are available as ufa and both are number 1 goalies wanting money. Its a buyers market this year for goaltending help and unless Boston will bend over on a deal, I think Philly is going to be very happy signing Nabakov and San Jose is going to be very happy signing Turco and since there is no alternative for these guys, the money is going to be way cheaper then Thomas earns anyhow so Philly/San Jose are probably going to come out of this situation real real real happy with no need at all to trade for Thomas.

and as for Washington... Tampa they wont have any need to trade for Thomas either, because even if they want goaltending help there are guys like Chris Mason and Ray Emery and Jose Theodore cut loose this year and they can all get the job done as starters too, only there wont be any starting jobs available for any of them... so they will be very motivated to take a spot with a team like Washinton or Tampa at a huge discount just to get a chance to play and hopefully salvage their careers

So, I say all this because I guess I dont think Savard OR Thomas are going to get moved afterall when we examin the market and the motavation behind trading these guys...

what it means if we dont trade them... is we have 19 guys signed for our depth chart {including Seguin at the rookie max} and it is going to cost us 54.5 million dollars in real hard cap hit dollars to pay these 19 guys.

after our buyout penalty is accounted for, we effectively have 4 million dollars to sign Gregory Cambell, Blake Wheeler, and Mark Stuart to complete our 22 man roster.

We need a 4th line center... a 4th line winger... and a 2nd pairing dman to complete the team.

This is why I now make the proposal from Boston to trade for Karberle... and it is this

To Boston
Tomas Karberle

To Toronto
Blake Wheeler AND Michael Ryder AND Mark Stuart

My logic for Boston is that they will get the missing ingredient they need on the BlueLine to try to win a cup with... the PP puck Moving QB dman they dont have now. Boston will be able to afford Karberle's contract by using Ryder's cap room. Boston will still have around 4 million dollars to spend but will only need a 3rd line rw/and 2 4th liners to fill out their roster after this trade. Cambell/Paille will be brought in under a million each and then Ryder's spot can be addressed on the UFA market with the 2 million left over dollars.

The trade definitely makes sense for Boston...

and why I think it makes sense for Toronto... I have heard that Burke likes Wheeler and Toronto is looking to add talent and size to their front 6. Wheeler doesnt play mean, but he is huge. He does have talent.

Ryder is paid alot... but Leafs have room to pay him and money to do so. He wont be paid as much on his next contract. He probably will be a bargain to someone on his next contract. Leafs arent loaded with many guys more talented then Ryder. He will be able to be an upgrade for them on the ice.

And Stuart can be dealt somewhere else for a return. Leafs may not need him since they are loaded with gritty dmen, but he is younger and cheaper then most of them. He might allow Burke to deal off Komasarek or Beauchemin in a seperate deal to clear cap space? Or he may just get dealt himself... in either case it adds value for the Leafs if he is in the trade.

I think Burke is looking to make moves this summer... so giving him assets to play with is likely a good thing.

Ive had a gut feeling Boston has wanted karberle for a couple years now... and if Savard isnt going to be part of the trade, then this does become the logical move for Chiarelli/Burke to make

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06-30-2010, 03:12 AM
  #2
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Fair value if boston thinks dumping ryder's salary is worth Wheeler and Stuart for Kaberle.

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06-30-2010, 03:16 AM
  #3
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after boston makes this deal.... the lineup will look great

horton/savard/lucic
seguin/bergeron/recchi
ufa/krecji/sturm
thornton/campbell/paille
marchard

boychuck/chara
seidenberg/karberle
alexandrov/ferrence
hunwick

rask
thomas

top 5 in the NHL for goaltending... center ice depth... and a top 4 defense IMO... still good team defense that has finished top 2 in the NHL for the last 2 seasons now... and much better offense then we had last year with guys hopefully healthier... and Horton/Seguin/Karberle replacing Ryder/Satan/Stuart in the prominant roles up front

the team would be over the cap by quite alot with wahtever Seguin earns on his bonuses, but going into 2011-2012, Chara and Sturm will have new contracts at much lower cap hits {or Sturm will be replaced} and if Karberle/Bergeron dont resign then they will create available cap space too.

We can afford to overspend this year and deal with it next year

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06-30-2010, 03:19 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kesler View Post
Fair value if boston thinks dumping ryder's salary is worth Wheeler and Stuart for Kaberle.
we might not have a choice... rival teams can offer Wheeler up to 2.6 mill on a rfa offer sheet and only comp us with a second rounder... we cant afford more then 4 million to sign campbell/stuart/wheeler unless we dump someone somewhere.

Wheeler seems to be the logical sacraficial lamb to both fix our cap situation and fetch us back a dman that is more important to us then he will be himself

down the pipeline we have Colborne who is going to end up getting shuffled to wing now that we drafted Seguin, so even if it hurts a bit short term to lose Wheeler... its not like we dont have a very logical replacement that will be coming real soon at a much cheaper cost to our cap

what i love about Karberle too is how loyal he has proven to be... he has time and again said he doesnt bail on his team just to move to a better team. He signed a very team friendly contract with his last contact cause he was happy to stay and play for the team he was on.

When Karberle comes up for his new contract... he is older now... and he wont want to move again... his priority isnt money... its being comfortable where he is playing. He has named Boston as a team he is willing to move too... and if we are going to be a strong team, its easy to project that he would give us a good deal on an extension.

24.5 million for 7 years with 22 million of it up front in the first 4 years would let him have a big payday for the last 4 years or so of his best playing time... and he could be given a NMC for these 4 or even 5 years since that is what is so important to him and it should be exactly what he wants as far as that goes... and then for the team, this type of deal would reduce his cap hit to just 3.5 and there just isnt any better dmen out there that you are going to get for a 3.5 cap hit for the next 4 years or so...

his loyalty definitely works in his favor to make his trade value much higher to me... and i think to the B's too since he has said in the past he would welcome playing for Boston... waived his NTC there... even got dealt to us in that aborted trade a couple years ago at the draft.

This is a guy that would compliment Chara/Seidenberg very good for the next 4 years and its a good bet Chara will be back for that time... so it completes the puzzle for us. If Chara's cap hit does go down to 5 like i think it will... and we could get karberle for around 3.5 like i just suggested... then we have our 3 top dmen signed for the next 4 years maybe all for just 12 million and no one else in the NHL has a better situation then that with more talent signed for less cap hit.

I definitely sacrafice both Wheeler and Stuart if I can make this a reality


Last edited by Alberta_OReilly_Fan: 06-30-2010 at 03:30 AM.
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Old
06-30-2010, 03:49 AM
  #5
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this is a good trade for both teams. the Leafs don't need Kabs anymore with Dion, hopefully a properly developed Shcenn, Gunnarson, and Komi. and the Bruins don't need either of these forwards any more with Seguin now in the mix, and getting Kaberle makes Stuart obsolete. although unfortunately about 1% of trade rumours and speculation come true :/

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06-30-2010, 05:58 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
after boston makes this deal.... the lineup will look great

horton/savard/lucic
seguin/bergeron/recchi
ufa/krecji/sturm
thornton/campbell/paille
marchard

boychuck/chara
seidenberg/karberle
alexandrov/ferrence
hunwick

rask
thomas
I thought Paille was not qualified.

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Old
06-30-2010, 06:09 AM
  #7
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I'd much rather keep Kaberle and re-sign him rather than trade him for Wheeler, a salary dump, and a defenseman we don't have a need for.

Kaberle re-signed to us is more important if that is the best trade scenario presented to us.

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06-30-2010, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
we might not have a choice... rival teams can offer Wheeler up to 2.6 mill on a rfa offer sheet and only comp us with a second rounder... we cant afford more then 4 million to sign campbell/stuart/wheeler unless we dump someone somewhere.
I think we could keep all 3 and move Hunwick to the AHL or trade him.

Quote:
Wheeler seems to be the logical sacraficial lamb to both fix our cap situation and fetch us back a dman that is more important to us then he will be himself
I actually think Wheeler can have a rebound year, with more talent on our roster.

Quote:
down the pipeline we have Colborne who is going to end up getting shuffled to wing now that we drafted Seguin, so even if it hurts a bit short term to lose Wheeler... its not like we dont have a very logical replacement that will be coming real soon at a much cheaper cost to our cap
I think Colborne could use a season in the AHL to continue his development. He'll get more playing time in Providence than in Boston.

Quote:
When Karberle comes up for his new contract... he is older now... and he wont want to move again... his priority isnt money... its being comfortable where he is playing. He has named Boston as a team he is willing to move too... and if we are going to be a strong team, its easy to project that he would give us a good deal on an extension.
I think that no matter how comfortable he is with a team won't effect his value. Even a reasonable contract extension of 5+mil isn't cheap. Gonchar has similar offensive talent, is older and is wanting 5+mil for 3 years.

Quote:
24.5 million for 7 years with 22 million of it up front in the first 4 years would let him have a big payday for the last 4 years or so of his best playing time... and he could be given a NMC for these 4 or even 5 years since that is what is so important to him and it should be exactly what he wants as far as that goes... and then for the team, this type of deal would reduce his cap hit to just 3.5 and there just isnt any better dmen out there that you are going to get for a 3.5 cap hit for the next 4 years or so...

I definitely sacrafice both Wheeler and Stuart if I can make this a reality
I had to stop quoting once I realized there's way to much fantasy and speculation involved in this scenario. Sorry.

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06-30-2010, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slave View Post
I'd much rather keep Kaberle and re-sign him rather than trade him for Wheeler, a salary dump, and a defenseman we don't have a need for.

Kaberle re-signed to us is more important if that is the best trade scenario presented to us.
/thread

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06-30-2010, 06:52 AM
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I do not think that this would be a smart trade for Boston to make, It is Savard for Kaberlle or no trade that simple. We do not really need Kaberlle anyway and Burke has him way over valued so just forget about Kaberlle and Boston and move on

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06-30-2010, 06:53 AM
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I'd rather keep kaberle tbh then take on boston league worst offence

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06-30-2010, 07:07 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
I think the way things appear to me now... Savard asked for a deal to get closer to his family and this isnt a situation where Boston felt desperate to move him. Unfortunately for Savard, it seems Ottawa and Toronto have said they dont want/cant afford him for the price it will take

Savard isnt Burke's type of player I guess... Not big enough to committ 4 mill a year to for the next 6-7 years... and Ottawa hasnt dealt Spezza yet so cant blame them for not wanting Savard unless they do deal Spezza.

I havent seen any real evidence Savard is desperate to leave Boston... other then it seems he wants to get closer to his kids. If its not possible then its not possible.

I have actually heard Chiarelli say Thomas wants to stay in Boston... and then I analyzed the goalie market and I see only Philly and San Jose in a situation where they want to pay money for a new number 1 goalie. Nabakov and Turco are available as ufa and both are number 1 goalies wanting money. Its a buyers market this year for goaltending help and unless Boston will bend over on a deal, I think Philly is going to be very happy signing Nabakov and San Jose is going to be very happy signing Turco and since there is no alternative for these guys, the money is going to be way cheaper then Thomas earns anyhow so Philly/San Jose are probably going to come out of this situation real real real happy with no need at all to trade for Thomas.

and as for Washington... Tampa they wont have any need to trade for Thomas either, because even if they want goaltending help there are guys like Chris Mason and Ray Emery and Jose Theodore cut loose this year and they can all get the job done as starters too, only there wont be any starting jobs available for any of them... so they will be very motivated to take a spot with a team like Washinton or Tampa at a huge discount just to get a chance to play and hopefully salvage their careers

So, I say all this because I guess I dont think Savard OR Thomas are going to get moved afterall when we examin the market and the motavation behind trading these guys...

what it means if we dont trade them... is we have 19 guys signed for our depth chart {including Seguin at the rookie max} and it is going to cost us 54.5 million dollars in real hard cap hit dollars to pay these 19 guys.

after our buyout penalty is accounted for, we effectively have 4 million dollars to sign Gregory Cambell, Blake Wheeler, and Mark Stuart to complete our 22 man roster.

We need a 4th line center... a 4th line winger... and a 2nd pairing dman to complete the team.

This is why I now make the proposal from Boston to trade for Karberle... and it is this

To Boston
Tomas Karberle

To Toronto
Blake Wheeler AND Michael Ryder AND Mark Stuart

My logic for Boston is that they will get the missing ingredient they need on the BlueLine to try to win a cup with... the PP puck Moving QB dman they dont have now. Boston will be able to afford Karberle's contract by using Ryder's cap room. Boston will still have around 4 million dollars to spend but will only need a 3rd line rw/and 2 4th liners to fill out their roster after this trade. Cambell/Paille will be brought in under a million each and then Ryder's spot can be addressed on the UFA market with the 2 million left over dollars.

The trade definitely makes sense for Boston...

and why I think it makes sense for Toronto... I have heard that Burke likes Wheeler and Toronto is looking to add talent and size to their front 6. Wheeler doesnt play mean, but he is huge. He does have talent.

Ryder is paid alot... but Leafs have room to pay him and money to do so. He wont be paid as much on his next contract. He probably will be a bargain to someone on his next contract. Leafs arent loaded with many guys more talented then Ryder. He will be able to be an upgrade for them on the ice.

And Stuart can be dealt somewhere else for a return. Leafs may not need him since they are loaded with gritty dmen, but he is younger and cheaper then most of them. He might allow Burke to deal off Komasarek or Beauchemin in a seperate deal to clear cap space? Or he may just get dealt himself... in either case it adds value for the Leafs if he is in the trade.

I think Burke is looking to make moves this summer... so giving him assets to play with is likely a good thing.

Ive had a gut feeling Boston has wanted karberle for a couple years now... and if Savard isnt going to be part of the trade, then this does become the logical move for Chiarelli/Burke to make
Burke isn't taking a salary dump in Ryder...keep dreaming.

If a deal with Boston was to be made - it would have already been made - these two GMs have been talking Kaberle for a year. Boston doesn't want to pay the asking price.

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06-30-2010, 07:08 AM
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I'd do Wheeler, Ryder and TOR 1st 2011 for Kabs + Prospect

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06-30-2010, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Slave View Post
I'd much rather keep Kaberle and re-sign him rather than trade him for Wheeler, a salary dump, and a defenseman we don't have a need for.

Kaberle re-signed to us is more important if that is the best trade scenario presented to us.
I'd have to agree with this. If Boston wants Kaberle as badly as the OP seems to think they do, then I would think that the return would be somewhat better than what the OP has proposed.

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Old
06-30-2010, 07:16 AM
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Terrible offer. Ryder's useless considering his salary and Stuart would become redundant. Wheeler was disappointing but has some upside but it's not worth trading Kaberle for him if he comes with deadweight. Like The Slave said, if this were the best offer Burke could get, we're better off re-signing Kabs.

Next.

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06-30-2010, 07:25 AM
  #16
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Not sure why Toronto would want our laziest players in Wheeler and Ryder.

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06-30-2010, 07:30 AM
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Terrible offer. Ryder's useless considering his salary and Stuart would become redundant. Wheeler was disappointing but has some upside but it's not worth trading Kaberle for him if he comes with deadweight. Like The Slave said, if this were the best offer Burke could get, we're better off re-signing Kabs.

Next.
Agree Toronto can keep Kaberle, and will for atleast 2 more weeks because there is no team ready to pay Burke's inflated value for him, when Burke can not get what he wants ,he will have to make a decesion on Kaberle

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06-30-2010, 07:45 AM
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There is no way Burke gets bent over on another deal with Boston like that. He'd wake up to a lynch mob and be run out of town. Not to mention the fact that that trade would easily make us one of the top 3 teams in the east while only further handicapping his.

Boston would have offered him Savard but for some reason Burke sees Kabs as having some ridiculous value and Savard as having none. It's safe to say neither GM is going to want to give a key component to a divisional rival especially for nothing.

The two make bad trade partners this year. Kaberle isn't coming to Boston for salary dumps, a dime a dozen defenseman (they already have Komisarek and Schenn) and our laziest prospect. That being said Burke is nuts if he thinks a player with a year left on his contract whose going to be looking for a significant raise will fetch much more than a good prospect and a high pick. Everyday that goes by Kaberle's value gets worse and worse.

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06-30-2010, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bme44 View Post
Agree Toronto can keep Kaberle, and will for atleast 2 more weeks because there is no team ready to pay Burke's inflated value for him, when Burke can not get what he wants ,he will have to make a decesion on Kaberle
Burke will wait to trade him as a rental at the trade deadline for inflated value. As of right now he doesn't have much value. It's the smart move on Burke's part. It also gives them a chance to re-up his contract if he so chooses.

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06-30-2010, 07:57 AM
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Terrible deal. Wheeler doesn't even play like his size suggests, Ryder is a one-dimensional forward who wasn't even good at that one dimension last season, and we don't need more defencemen.

Thanks for another Kaberle thread though.

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Originally Posted by IrishPaulie View Post
Burke will wait to trade him as a rental at the trade deadline for inflated value. As of right now he doesn't have much value. It's the smart move on Burke's part. It also gives them a chance to re-up his contract if he so chooses.
Or Burke will work on an extension this offseason. It's something Leaf fans would love to happen should Burke not get what he wants. Him and Komisarek were very good together and we are all eager to see them play together this season, especially with Komisarek being 100%.


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06-30-2010, 08:04 AM
  #21
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For me Wheeler isn't enough to take on an extra 4M in salary + and RFA we don't need.

I think I'd do.

Kaberle + Mikus/Ryan type prospect
For
Wheeler + Ryder + TML 2011 1st


Last edited by hatterson: 06-30-2010 at 08:23 AM.
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06-30-2010, 08:16 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
For me Wheeler isn't enough to take on an extra 4M in salary + and RFA we don't need.

I think I'd do.

Kaberle + Mikus/Ryan type prospect
For
Wheeler + Ryder + TML 2010 1st
I bet you would but you are not getting Seguin What a Joke

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06-30-2010, 08:23 AM
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I bet you would but you are not getting Seguin What a Joke
lol, sorry. I meant TML 2011 1st..I edited the post

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06-30-2010, 08:30 AM
  #24
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Trade unneeded and is just another dump Wheeler idea that I think is a waste. TT is going to be moved- but it'll bring salary back (unless it's a TT for Smith deal). Savard could be moved but I'm not even considering it as happening in this scenario. Paille will be resigned for less OR Marchand comes up with a deal that's league minimum. Stuart isn't going to be resigned- he's trade bait. Alexandrov becomes the 6th here next year, McQuaid the 7th (thus the reason they kept Ference- veteran leadership/guidance). Ryder can be sent down to Providence next year and someone else can be brought up to save on the cap if need be. Otherwise he'll be packaged with a pick and prospect for a conditional future pick (based on performance/resigning/traded).

So why throw away Wheeler, especially when you're going to have to add more than this to the deal to get Kaberle since Burke is dictating an elevated price? No from Toronto fans, don't see it as the right play to free cap space and move guys. Especially since you then still need to replace Wheeler on the wing when the deal is done.

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06-30-2010, 08:48 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
For me Wheeler isn't enough to take on an extra 4M in salary + and RFA we don't need.

I think I'd do.

Kaberle + Mikus/Ryan type prospect
For
Wheeler + Ryder + TML 2011 1st
why do yous want your pic so bad,i taught every free agent on the market was goin to toronto.Yous must be expecting another bad year,and boston will surely thank you for another franchise player lol

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