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Holmgren has sent this organization spiraling downward

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Old
02-06-2011, 06:00 PM
  #326
bney7
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lol I hated Leighton in net, but with our defense you could put a trash can in the net and we wouldn't be too far off pace from where we are.

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02-06-2011, 06:11 PM
  #327
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Seriously the way people complain around here, Homer has done so horrible can you imagine this team without his **** ups?

You know that Verizon commercial... yea.

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02-06-2011, 06:14 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by flyersfan333 View Post
I fail to see why that would be worse... if Amaro was operating under an ownership that didn't mind spending just a bit more money for long term rewards, you would be calling him a godsend.
How could this have been even discussed about Homer and Amaro?... Even back then.

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02-06-2011, 06:31 PM
  #329
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lol I hated Leighton in net, but with our defense you could put a trash can in the net and we wouldn't be too far off pace from where we are.
No way, after seeing how bad Leighton was in his one game, we would definitely be down a bit in the conference. Not only that but would you really want Leighton as one of your goalies come playoff time? At least Homer has made some amends by getting rid of him and Walker but we're stuck with Shelley for way too long and at too high a price.

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02-06-2011, 07:06 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Woof View Post
No way, after seeing how bad Leighton was in his one game, we would definitely be down a bit in the conference. Not only that but would you really want Leighton as one of your goalies come playoff time? At least Homer has made some amends by getting rid of him and Walker but we're stuck with Shelley for way too long and at too high a price.
Eh, I'm not positive Leighton would have been that terrible ALL the time. Hell, maybe Bob would have been called up by the end of October if he had, and been fine.

The loss of Pronger for what, 13 games, would have been damning to him. He relied way too much on the D to clear his rebounds and keep the other team's forwards away from him. For that reason alone (not to mention his other deficiencies) I hate the idea of having him in net for another playoffs, and I hate that Holmgren did his best to use him as the damned starter for the season. That's something I can never forgive or forget, along with the Shelley signing. Both of those instances are stupefying lapses in judgement.

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02-06-2011, 07:08 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Eh, I'm not positive Leighton would have been that terrible ALL the time. Hell, maybe Bob would have been called up by the end of October if he had, and been fine.

The loss of Pronger for what, 13 games, would have been damning to him. He relied way too much on the D to clear his rebounds and keep the other team's forwards away from him. For that reason alone (not to mention his other deficiencies) I hate the idea of having him in net for another playoffs, and I hate that Holmgren did his best to use him as the damned starter for the season. That's something I can never forgive or forget, along with the Shelley signing. Both of those instances are stupefying lapses in judgement.
I don't enjoy the Shelly signing, but it was an attempt to replace Lappy.

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02-06-2011, 07:22 PM
  #332
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No way, after seeing how bad Leighton was in his one game, we would definitely be down a bit in the conference. Not only that but would you really want Leighton as one of your goalies come playoff time? At least Homer has made some amends by getting rid of him and Walker but we're stuck with Shelley for way too long and at too high a price.
If Leighton would have played healthy through Preseason and from Opening Game, I don't imagine we would have seen what we saw that one game he played off of LTIR... Not to say that I would rather have him as the Number One than the tandem we now have with Bob and Boosh.

To be honest I have not problem with leight's Regular Season and the Boston and Montreal PO series... I did have a lot of problems with his Cup Final Series, where an average performance may have meant a parade down Broad Street.

All in all, I believe Homer has the ability to adjust on the fly and change course as required... I have a feeling that Homer may have understood what he had with Bobrovsky and was looking for him to take over sooner than later, having Leighton as an early mentor... and I think that Boosh is doing that job well at a cheaper Cap hit.

I feel the core players are in place and they are staggered enough to peak at different points and phase out at different times... As long as Homer can retain the role players and replace the core players when their contracts run out -- Kimmo for example... and he may already have addressed that with Mesz... and Harnell is another example... and on through Briere -- Richards and Carter are here for life, and hopefully Giroux will be also.

Anyway I believe this thread title was flat out wrong.

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02-06-2011, 08:03 PM
  #333
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All the professionals in hockey think Holmgren has done a fantastic job except for right here in negadelphia You cannot worry about the past. Deal with today and what may be. Get busy living not dying GO FLYERS

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02-06-2011, 08:07 PM
  #334
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We have Chris Pronger. Everyone that says Homer has done a bad job needs to get their head out of their ****ing ass.

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02-06-2011, 08:10 PM
  #335
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I agree, in the last four years the team went from last place, to conference finals, to first round exit, to Cup finals. This is a disgrace. Anyone who does that to a team should be tarred and feathered. I can't believe that this team is even in existence any more because of what has transpired over the last few years. It is very likely that Bettman will step in just strip Philadelphia of its franchise because they are such an embarrassment. Let this be a lesson to other GMs. Don't make any moves except for ones that all of the fans agree with otherwise your team is destined to fail just like this team has over the past few years. I am throwing up as I type this because I am so sick of this junk.
I would like to reiterate these statements that I made over the summer. Holmgren continues to show how inept he is at being GM and the moves he has made have clearly hurt this team.

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02-06-2011, 08:27 PM
  #336
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The only bad thing he does is trade 1st rounders and sign Shelley. I'm only worried about the future of this team. Right now were one of if not the best team in the league.

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02-06-2011, 08:36 PM
  #337
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There's also the Jones debacle, failing to know how the 35+ rule works, and Leighton signing.

That being said, he's put together a great team, and his moves during the season have all been good.

Those bad ones though...wow, some really are bad.

edit: he also took back salary in the Gagne salary dump.

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02-06-2011, 09:04 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's also the Jones debacle, failing to know how the 35+ rule works, and Leighton signing.

That being said, he's put together a great team, and his moves during the season have all been good.

Those bad ones though...wow, some really are bad.

edit: he also took back salary in the Gagne salary dump.
Wow but the good ones have been really really good

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02-06-2011, 09:13 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Wow but the good ones have been really really good
Yeah, except if it wasn't for exceptional luck, many of the bad ones could have undone them.

What if Leighton doesn't get injured? What if Carter doesn't want to sign an agreeable contract? His cap management has never been good, and it's always hung over the team's head. Who would you prefer, Shelley, Walker, and Leighton, or Gagne?

He has shown he is capable of thoroughly idiotic moves. However, he seems to learn from each one, unlike other GMs.

He has done quite a few things that deserve a lot of criticism. What's wrong with giving it? Last season came down to a shootout. Imagine what happens if that fails. Homer has been incredibly fortunate at times, but screw it, good luck beats the hell out of bad luck.

If they win a Stanley Cup this year, it's because of the team he built. If they don't, it's likely because of goaltending, which is on Homer. In either situation, he should get credit.

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02-06-2011, 09:40 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yeah, except if it wasn't for exceptional luck, many of the bad ones could have undone them.

What if Leighton doesn't get injured? What if Carter doesn't want to sign an agreeable contract? His cap management has never been good, and it's always hung over the team's head. Who would you prefer, Shelley, Walker, and Leighton, or Gagne?

He has shown he is capable of thoroughly idiotic moves. However, he seems to learn from each one, unlike other GMs.

He has done quite a few things that deserve a lot of criticism. What's wrong with giving it? Last season came down to a shootout. Imagine what happens if that fails. Homer has been incredibly fortunate at times, but screw it, good luck beats the hell out of bad luck.

If they win a Stanley Cup this year, it's because of the team he built. If they don't, it's likely because of goaltending, which is on Homer. In either situation, he should get credit.
What if... are we going to play what ifs?

What if Leighton plays the SCF like the ECF?

What if Leighton plays goal in the finals like he did all year?

What if Neimi doesn't make those two great saves early in that Game Six OT?

What if Boucher doesn't get hurt and plays great through the rest of the postseason?


What if the Flyers won the Stanley Cup in 2010?


... And what's to say that if they don't win it going forward it on the goal-tending? Do you have a crystal ball?


Yes, by all means criticize Homer for what he does bad, but also give him credit for all that goes right... like the Conference Championship and the five postseason series he's won after taking over the worst team in the NHL... Please rate him on the net result and what we know now and not what we fear MIGHT happen if he doesn't adjust correctly going forward.

If what he does is good luck and not his doing, isn't what goes wrong bad luck and therefore not his fault?

Do they roast Mike Gillis in Vancouver like this?

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02-06-2011, 09:49 PM
  #341
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Nobody needed a crystal ball at the time to realize that Homer really and truly mangled the offseason. Aside from OD and Mez, the whole thing made no sense. Why sign Shelley for so much, for so long? Why sign Leighton, who was injured twice when he had his first taste of a starter's load, for 1.55? Why let Asham walk? Why take Walker back from TB? Why call up Jones?

He has done a lot of stupid crap. I don't get why some people think it's so awful to point that out. It's possible to acknowledge that crap along with the gold. I give him credit. I do it all the time. I just did, someone in my previous posts, actually.

As for the luck thing, I guess I shouldn't have deleted the part about Emery going down as really not being his fault due to bad luck, since it seemed like a random tangent at the time I was posting.

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02-06-2011, 10:05 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Nobody needed a crystal ball at the time to realize that Homer really and truly mangled the offseason. Aside from OD and Mez, the whole thing made no sense. Why sign Shelley for so much, for so long? Why sign Leighton, who was injured twice when he had his first taste of a starter's load, for 1.55? Why let Asham walk? Why take Walker back from TB? Why call up Jones?

He has done a lot of stupid crap. I don't get why some people think it's so awful to point that out. It's possible to acknowledge that crap along with the gold. I give him credit. I do it all the time. I just did, someone in my previous posts, actually.

As for the luck thing, I guess I shouldn't have deleted the part about Emery going down as really not being his fault due to bad luck, since it seemed like a random tangent at the time I was posting.
The crystal ball was specifically for your saying that if they lose it it will be because of goaltending... You have no way of knowing that is the case; you can guess, just as anyone can.

But aside from the Jones error -- that actually may have had no effects after all since they went to Game Six of the Finals -- aside from that you nor anyone else can say he was wrong on the other things... and Leighton and Walker are off the books anyway... He had his reasons on Asham and Shelley as he built his team, and he can and probably will make change going forward anyway... he can adjust and can recourse the team's direction. IMO we can only judge on the results, good or bad.

For an example... I knocked Homer and the team for letting Knuble walk... I said they will never pick up his lost goals and miss him on the PP as well as his two-way play in key game moments... What happened? Flyers go to within two games of the Cup and Knuble get an early tee time. The results proved me wrong... or at least went a long way in doing so... But I guess I could say, "Damn you, Homer, had you re-signed Knoobs the Flyers would have won four SCF games!!"

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02-06-2011, 10:16 PM
  #343
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As far as I'm concerned, in a cap world, if a move makes little roster or financial sense, it's a bad one

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02-06-2011, 10:30 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
I don't enjoy the Shelly signing, but it was an attempt to replace Lappy.
No it wasn't. Lappy wasn't lost for the season until training camp. When Shelley was signed Lappy was expected to be a part of the roster. Also, you wouldn't replace one of your best PKers with a useless goon.

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02-06-2011, 10:34 PM
  #345
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The Stanley Cup isn't awarded in February.

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02-06-2011, 11:05 PM
  #346
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Do they roast Mike Gillis in Vancouver like this?
FYI, the current troll trend is to give Brian Burke all the credit because he drafted the Sedins and Kesler.

But generally, Gillis' popularity with the fans is approaching Elvis-like levels. If (pleasepleaseplease) the Canucks finally come away with a Stanley Cup, they'll be building statues of him and start a movement for his canonization as a Saint.

As for the Flyers, I can think of a lot of other fanbases who'd love to have the problems your team does.

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02-06-2011, 11:12 PM
  #347
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The title of this thread is: "Holmgren has sent this organization spiraling downward".

Facts:

Homer took over a team that was in the early stages of it's worst season ever and being the worst team point-wise in the NHL.

Homer began removing deadwood and ending assets and replacing it with assets for going forward.

He moved now talent to PO teams for future studs.

Homer signed quality players for a team that was #30 by convincing them that the Flyers were reversing their course and doing so very quickly.

In doing so he had to be creative in offering them in more money over longer periods... not the norm in the NHL at that time. He also had to be free with the no move and no trade clauses.

Homer moved draft picks and flipped draft picks.

Homer saw Kimmo and Coburn needed another stud D-man who could eat up many minutes and be a leader and went and got Pronger.

When he saw four top flight D-men were not enough he built three pairs of interchangeable top two pairings.

Homer changed coaches when he saw the team needed a tougher coach and needed a more aggressive system that ownership demanded.

He gave his new coach three solid scoring lines and a quality energy fourth lines... allowing key players to spread their minutes; more some games and less others.

He built them strong down the middle with four solid top centers and a solid defensive center.

He locked up his top two young stud centers for about a dozen years each... and locked up his core for a relatively long period, and for comparatively Cap friendly salaries.

He has so far corrected some of his mistakes seamlessly... such as Lupul and Eminger.

He has secured higher quality goalie prospects for the system and an apparent stud in Bobrovsky trough free agency.

He has not been afraid to gambol on high return players such as Emery and Zherdev.

He has taken a last place in the NHl team to the Conference finals the very next year and the following year lost to the eventual Cup Champions... and followed that with a trip to the Stanley Cup Finals where they won two games and lost two in OT.

He has brought the team to a point at mid-season where they either lead the NHL or are second while leading the Eastern Conference and are rated near the top of every power ranking... if not the top... and have pundits saying they have a good chance to return to the Finals.



... I'd say that that is some downward spiral.

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02-06-2011, 11:14 PM
  #348
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The Stanley Cup isn't awarded in February.
And doom is not found while leading the conference and two points off the League lead.

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02-06-2011, 11:18 PM
  #349
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And doom is not found while leading the conference and two points off the League lead.
While critical, I was never "the Flyers are hitting the skids" but the Flyers organizational standard adheres to my form of reasoning. It would be different if we were the Panthers or something.

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02-06-2011, 11:19 PM
  #350
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Everyone here seems to swear up and down that Holmgren's success is all about luck.

But then again, I lot of you also insinuate (though not directly) that should Holmgren win a Cup, he gets a free pass in the eyes of history.

Well, if it wasn't for Emery's injury, we probably have a Cup thanks to having someone half competent in net. Let's be serious, the Hawks were not that good.

If that's the case, isn't the fact that Holmgren's not getting a pass based solely on the fact that Emery just happened to have a zombie hip?

You can't claim that he's being helped by good luck and ignore the fact that he's had to tread through a lot of bad luck as well.

As for whether it's better to be lucky than to be good...I'd rather have Holmgren be both.

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