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Holmgren has sent this organization spiraling downward

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Old
02-07-2011, 03:19 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
The Sharks have never had playoff success nor have the Capitals. They are built with high skill low heart players. That does not translate into playoff success. Our team is built with high skill huge heart guys known for IMPROVING their game in the playoffs. The exact same players took us to the finals last year and this year we have improved the defense and goaltending (Bob>Leighton, Boucher=Boucher). The forwards are 9 deep in scoring. ARe you for real or what? The Sharks? That is your comparison team? For real? Why did I make the mistake of opening this thread. Oh well, my Montreal weekend high helps to ensure this thread doesn't bother me today. Phew.
Let's not go overboard here, currently this team has had problems beating the Bolts, that is one team which could pose a problem. The team has "scoring depth" but playoffs are not won with "scoring depth", they are won with stingy defense, solid, timely goaltending, and goals from guys who play every shift focused on creating chances out of the defense.

I like our chances, but this team still has a lot to prove that they can get it done. Guys like Carter, Zherdev, and JvR need to show up, and Richards needs to play like a leader in the playoffs. Hartnell-Briere-Leino will also need to repeat last seasons playoffs and somewhere along the line they need to find their Simon Gagne, a guy who shows up and scores clutch goals when the team needs them, is that Giroux?? Guess we will find out.

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02-07-2011, 03:22 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Made this point in another thread but it still applied here. Homer has done a good job getting this team to this point but his mess with the cap and losing some players due to the cap problems should be a concern considering this could be your lineup today if Homer had never traded the #1 pick to Caps for Eminger:

Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Gagne-Richards-Downie
JvR-Giroux-Carter
Carcillo-Betts-Shelley or Powe or Nodl

Pronger-Carlson
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-O'Donnell

Bobrovsky-Boucher

I like your lineup including the players we could have without Homer mistakes. I corrected the lineup removing all players we would not have without Homer:

?-?-?
Gagne-Richards-Downie
?-Giroux-Carter
?-?-?

?-?
?-?
?-?

?-?

Now - which team do you prefer? The one we have that Homer built, or the one you posted with the convenient players Homer traded for less the guys you would like us to have?

P.S. Gagne should NOT be a Flyer since his cap hit is way too high for an injury prone player
P.S. If Steve Downie was still a Flyer he would be watching from the press box. Even Briere is a suspension machine in Philly, Downie would be getting an average of 1 a month.

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02-07-2011, 03:31 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I like your lineup including the players we could have without Homer mistakes. I corrected the lineup removing all players we would not have without Homer:

?-?-?
Gagne-Richards-Downie
?-Giroux-Carter
?-?-?

?-?
?-?
?-?

?-?

Now - which team do you prefer? The one we have that Homer built, or the one you posted with the convenient players Homer traded for less the guys you would like us to have?

P.S. Gagne should NOT be a Flyer since his cap hit is way too high for an injury prone player
P.S. If Steve Downie was still a Flyer he would be watching from the press box. Even Briere is a suspension machine in Philly, Downie would be getting an average of 1 a month.

I have no problem with Homer, he has made some good moves, but he is also very trigger happy. The most glaring mistake for me was the Eminger trade. He has also made some quality moves, but his negligence of the cap is not always good cap management. You do remember that Homer had to play a kid who had zero NHL experience in a game which could have given the Flyers home ice advantage against the Pens in the first round. He also had to move Upshall to get a couple extra dollars.

Gagne could have been a Flyer in his final year of a deal. Homer and management needed to be more patient with Downie. The players I posted is the team that Homer could have had if he had just not made the stupid move for Eminger

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02-07-2011, 03:42 PM
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I like your lineup including the players we could have without Homer mistakes. I corrected the lineup removing all players we would not have without Homer:

?-?-?
Gagne-Richards-Downie
?-Giroux-Carter
?-?-?

?-?
?-?
?-?

?-?

Now - which team do you prefer? The one we have that Homer built, or the one you posted with the convenient players Homer traded for less the guys you would like us to have?

P.S. Gagne should NOT be a Flyer since his cap hit is way too high for an injury prone player
P.S. If Steve Downie was still a Flyer he would be watching from the press box. Even Briere is a suspension machine in Philly, Downie would be getting an average of 1 a month.
That line-up would look more realistic if you replaced all of the question marks with "2nd".

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02-07-2011, 03:43 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Let's not go overboard here, currently this team has had problems beating the Bolts, that is one team which could pose a problem. The team has "scoring depth" but playoffs are not won with "scoring depth", they are won with stingy defense, solid, timely goaltending, and goals from guys who play every shift focused on creating chances out of the defense.

I like our chances, but this team still has a lot to prove that they can get it done. Guys like Carter, Zherdev, and JvR need to show up, and Richards needs to play like a leader in the playoffs. Hartnell-Briere-Leino will also need to repeat last seasons playoffs and somewhere along the line they need to find their Simon Gagne, a guy who shows up and scores clutch goals when the team needs them, is that Giroux?? Guess we will find out.
You don't mention Briere-Leino-Hartnell. They were created in the playoffs and were the #1 reason we made it to the finals. Gagne was a great Flyer, but he is gone. Carter is your whipping boy and he played on 2 bad feet last year, so I will not mention that he will MOST LIKELY play well in the playoffs. Giroux proved a beast in the playoffs last year. Richards turns into a shutdown/hitting machine in the playoffs, he silenced all critics last April/May/June. Ask Boston if Richie made a difference in that series? David Krejci anyone?

We are #1 in the conference right now and with Sid/Malkin issues in Pittsburgh and Washington stumbling, we are and should be the favorites to come out of the East. That doesn't make me a Homer, that is what EVERYONE IN THE NHL is saying. No guarantees, 7 games against Boston would be tough. Tampa is tough. Washington and Pittsburgh are still good teams. But make no mistake - we have the team to get it done. Whether we do, is a different question. You need a lot of things to go right to win it all. That is why the Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy in sports to win.

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02-07-2011, 03:59 PM
  #381
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If the Flyers win the cup this year, who cares if they are going to have cap issues in the future.

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02-07-2011, 04:36 PM
  #382
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If the Flyers win the cup this year, who cares if they are going to have cap issues in the future.
Because if you play that game and you swing and miss, it's another two decades at the least until they get another shot like this. A freak injury to a key player, a fluky series, anything and it's all over.

If you don't play your game for one year, you have a 4-5 year window.

Banking on one swing is stupid.

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02-07-2011, 04:40 PM
  #383
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Because if you play that game and you swing and miss, it's another two decades at the least until they get another shot like this. A freak injury to a key player, a fluky series, anything and it's all over.

If you don't play your game for one year, you have a 4-5 year window.

Banking on one swing is stupid.
You have the same philosophy the Eagles have.

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02-07-2011, 06:28 PM
  #384
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You have the same philosophy the Eagles have.
Outside of Moss, the Patriots have this philosophy as well.

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02-07-2011, 06:31 PM
  #385
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There just isn't a wealth of players who fit the Flyers' criteria of:
1) adding depth beyond what they already have on their roster,
2) fitting under an already tight salary cap, and
3) not costing much more than spare parts.

Things should get more interesting in about 2 weeks, when a couple of teams' playoff chances will probably go south.

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02-07-2011, 07:09 PM
  #386
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You have the same philosophy the Eagles have.
And the Detroit Red Wings.

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02-07-2011, 08:33 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Made this point in another thread but it still applied here. Homer has done a good job getting this team to this point but his mess with the cap and losing some players due to the cap problems should be a concern considering this could be your lineup today if Homer had never traded the #1 pick to Caps for Eminger:

Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Gagne-Richards-Downie
JvR-Giroux-Carter
Carcillo-Betts-Shelley or Powe or Nodl

Pronger-Carlson
Timonen-Coburn
Meszaros-O'Donnell

Bobrovsky-Boucher
That team doesn't fit under the cap.

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02-07-2011, 08:56 PM
  #388
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It's not practical to compare hockey to football.

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02-07-2011, 09:20 PM
  #389
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Shelley couldnt carry Laperriere'd jock. Shelley could never replace what Laperriere brought to the ice and off the ice.
Actually, Shelley is known as an incredible locker room influence.

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02-07-2011, 10:31 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's not practical to compare hockey to football.
you are correct, there arent guaranteed contracts in football. thats the first thing I thought of the when I read it.

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02-07-2011, 11:05 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Let's not go overboard here, currently this team has had problems beating the Bolts, that is one team which could pose a problem. The team has "scoring depth" but playoffs are not won with "scoring depth", they are won with stingy defense, solid, timely goaltending, and goals from guys who play every shift focused on creating chances out of the defense.

I like our chances, but this team still has a lot to prove that they can get it done. Guys like Carter, Zherdev, and JvR need to show up, and Richards needs to play like a leader in the playoffs. Hartnell-Briere-Leino will also need to repeat last seasons playoffs and somewhere along the line they need to find their Simon Gagne, a guy who shows up and scores clutch goals when the team needs them, is that Giroux?? Guess we will find out.
Throughout the history of the NHL there have been many occasions where a team that was having trouble with a certain team beats that troublesome team in the post season... For the Flyers we can look all the way back to the first Cup where they face the Bruins who gave them fits and a team that they only beat in their rink once prior, IIRC... Whether it be a case where they beat them to grab home ice and hold their serve at home, or they use a full seven game series to work out a way to win... There is a big difference playing a team in mid-season and having control, and in a series where the teams plan and practice with ONE team in mind... and adjust as they progress. Point being that Tampa may give the Flyers fits in the regular season, but give Lavy and Company a chance to work with the team and beat them over a complete series... Coaching is so much more important in head to head competition in the Postseason than with occasional meetings during the season, when the coach concentrates on having his team set to the long haul of 82 games... Big difference.


As for replacing Gagne and his clutch Postseason goals... Gags wasn't always the clutch player he was later on. In fact, he was panned for being the opposite. Clarke called him out in the TB series before the Lockout and told him if he wanted to be a top player he had to start acting like one (greatly paraphrased) and Gags responded... IMO Giroux can be that player you seek; he has been clutch in the two Postseasons he has played in... the last one he was outstanding, IIRC... I'm counting on him being a force in the POs.

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02-08-2011, 12:20 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
IP.S. If Steve Downie was still a Flyer he would be watching from the press box. Even Briere is a suspension machine in Philly, Downie would be getting an average of 1 a month.
I was never a huge fan of him but Downie has more skill then Shelley and Carcillo combined. Hes cleaned up his act alot in the past couple of years, I would be willing to bet Lavi could put Downie's skill set to very good use.
he would be playing ahead of Nodl right now thats for sure. Downie being on this team would mean they would have little or no use for Shelley or Carcillo.

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02-08-2011, 09:50 AM
  #393
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You don't mention Briere-Leino-Hartnell. They were created in the playoffs and were the #1 reason we made it to the finals. Gagne was a great Flyer, but he is gone. Carter is your whipping boy and he played on 2 bad feet last year, so I will not mention that he will MOST LIKELY play well in the playoffs. Giroux proved a beast in the playoffs last year. Richards turns into a shutdown/hitting machine in the playoffs, he silenced all critics last April/May/June. Ask Boston if Richie made a difference in that series? David Krejci anyone?
The Leino move was a move that worked to his benefit, but they still did not know what they had in Leino until his playoff performance. Carter has done NOTHING in the playoffs, so all the regular season goals are useless until he scores some timely goals Gagne will forever be a guy who can win you games when it matters and could have been a very important part of this team this year if Homer had not mismanaged the cap. When healthy Gagne is one of the best two-way wings in the NHL and is a true sniper who will go to the net at any cost. Either this team wins it all this year or you can consider all the salaries being paid to the young bucks a waste of money.


Quote:
We are #1 in the conference right now and with Sid/Malkin issues in Pittsburgh and Washington stumbling, we are and should be the favorites to come out of the East. That doesn't make me a Homer, that is what EVERYONE IN THE NHL is saying. No guarantees, 7 games against Boston would be tough. Tampa is tough. Washington and Pittsburgh are still good teams. But make no mistake - we have the team to get it done. Whether we do, is a different question. You need a lot of things to go right to win it all. That is why the Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy in sports to win.
This team is putting themselves in a great position, I could not be happier. Not losing more than three games in a row, coming out and beating teams early. The one things I will say about this team is that they lack toughness, not Jody Shelley tough, but guys who sacrifice every shift to play physical and win the one on one battles. That is why the Caps will never win and why as fans should still be concerned about the Pens, even without Malkin.

And mostly, we should be very concerned about teams like the Bruins and Bolts. You can a team who scores more regular season goals but then in the playoffs run into a "hot goalie" and the scoring dries up, what happens then, who steps up? Do we have enough guys who can focus on playing every shift like it is their last? People can give Nodl or Powe crap, but it is guys like that who will win you big games by doing the little things that matter.

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02-08-2011, 10:18 AM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
That team doesn't fit under the cap.


Wrong......

Hartnell(4.2)-Briere(6.5)-Leino(.800)
Gagne(5.25)-Richards(5.75)-Downie(1.85)
JvR(1.654)-Giroux(.822)-Carter(5.0)
Carcillo(1/075)-Betts(.700)-Shelley(1.1) or Powe(.725) or Nodl(.850)

Total fwds = 34.701mill

Pronger(4.921)-Carlson(.846)
Timonen(6.333)-Coburn(3.2)
Meszaros(4.0)-O'Donnell(1.3)



Total D = 20.6 mill

Bobrovsky(1.75)-Boucher(.925)

Total goalies = 2.675mill


Total cap hit = $57.976mill

Current cap = $58,491,067

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02-08-2011, 10:21 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Wrong......

Hartnell(4.2)-Briere(6.5)-Leino(.800)
Gagne(5.25)-Richards(5.75)-Downie(1.85)
JvR(1.654)-Giroux(.822)-Carter(5.0)
Carcillo(1/075)-Betts(.700)-Shelley(1.1) or Powe(.725) or Nodl(.850)

Total fwds = 34.701mill

Pronger(4.921)-Carlson(.846)
Timonen(6.333)-Coburn(3.2)
Meszaros(4.0)-O'Donnell(1.3)



Total D = 20.6 mill

Bobrovsky(1.75)-Boucher(.925)

Total goalies = 2.675mill


Total cap hit = $57.976mill

Current cap = $58,491,067
Where is our 7th D?

Edit: And are you only counting 12 forwards?

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02-08-2011, 10:42 AM
  #396
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Where is our 7th D?

Edit: And are you only counting 12 forwards?
Exactly - see how easy this cap management is! Just fill out 4 lines, 6 D and 2 goalies and voila.....

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02-08-2011, 10:49 AM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
This team is putting themselves in a great position, I could not be happier. Not losing more than three games in a row, coming out and beating teams early. The one things I will say about this team is that they lack toughness, not Jody Shelley tough, but guys who sacrifice every shift to play physical and win the one on one battles. That is why the Caps will never win and why as fans should still be concerned about the Pens, even without Malkin.

And mostly, we should be very concerned about teams like the Bruins and Bolts. You can a team who scores more regular season goals but then in the playoffs run into a "hot goalie" and the scoring dries up, what happens then, who steps up? Do we have enough guys who can focus on playing every shift like it is their last? People can give Nodl or Powe crap, but it is guys like that who will win you big games by doing the little things that matter.
Lack toughness - how? Name me more than 3 forwards who are not tough on our team? Because we have one russian player all of a sudden we are not tough?

Richards=toughest captain in hockey
Carter=Super strong on the puck, not "fight tough" but hard nosed
Giroux=Just try and knock him off his skates. Very tough
Briere=See Giroux
Hartnell=Super Tough
JVR=Big boy. WOuld like him tougher, but he is improving in that area.
Leino=Not "tough", but makes up for it
Powe=Tough
Shelley=Tough
Carcillo=Tough
Betts=Doesn't stand out as soft
Zherdev=Not tough.

Seriously, what are you taking about. Name another team it looking to win it all and doesn't have at least two players who are "not tough". Tampa has plenty. Pittsburgh, Washington are full of em. Boston has the same as us. Montreal, Rangers, Atlanta, Carolina,Buffalo=Come on.

WHO is tougher? Are we taking current day NHL, or are you looking for us to have more Steve Downies and less Ville Leinos? I mean, those were good years.....The Steve Downie years.

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02-08-2011, 11:36 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I was never a huge fan of him but Downie has more skill then Shelley and Carcillo combined. Hes cleaned up his act alot in the past couple of years, I would be willing to bet Lavi could put Downie's skill set to very good use.
he would be playing ahead of Nodl right now thats for sure. Downie being on this team would mean they would have little or no use for Shelley or Carcillo.
I was always a big Downie fan, but I do agree that he needed to be away from the Philly spotlight. Another reason why Carcillo is almost useless here. Plus Stevens hated him anyway.

Downie did bring us Carle which has worked out well.

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02-08-2011, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
WHO is tougher? Are we taking current day NHL, or are you looking for us to have more Steve Downies and less Ville Leinos? I mean, those were good years.....The Steve Downie years.
Steve Downie>>>Dan Carcillo and Jody Shelley. its no secret that John Stevens couldnt handle downie, hence the reason he was dealt. Had Lavi been here all along I am 100 percent confident we would still have Downie and wouldnt have Carcillo and Shelley and would be better off.

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02-08-2011, 12:33 PM
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Lack toughness - how? Name me more than 3 forwards who are not tough on our team? Because we have one russian player all of a sudden we are not tough?

Richards=toughest captain in hockey
Carter=Super strong on the puck, not "fight tough" but hard nosed
Giroux=Just try and knock him off his skates. Very tough
Briere=See Giroux
Hartnell=Super Tough
JVR=Big boy. WOuld like him tougher, but he is improving in that area.
Leino=Not "tough", but makes up for it
Powe=Tough
Shelley=Tough
Carcillo=Tough
Betts=Doesn't stand out as soft
Zherdev=Not tough.

Seriously, what are you taking about. Name another team it looking to win it all and doesn't have at least two players who are "not tough". Tampa has plenty. Pittsburgh, Washington are full of em. Boston has the same as us. Montreal, Rangers, Atlanta, Carolina,Buffalo=Come on.

WHO is tougher? Are we taking current day NHL, or are you looking for us to have more Steve Downies and less Ville Leinos? I mean, those were good years.....The Steve Downie years.
I don't know what kind of tough you and he are talking about... but I was taking it as the kind of though that will do whatever it takes to win without backing off... I know the team had it last season and I see no real difference this season.

As for Leino; I see him taking the hits and not backing down in his play... He will go out there each shift, no matter the opponent on the ice, and do what he has to do to control the puck and play, as well as deter the other team from doing so... Is a a glove dropper? Certainly not, but IMO toughness is not defined by that... HEART is what determines toughness to me, and many a fighter does not really have the heart to make sure their team comes back from 0-3 goals after 0-3 games... And toughness in a skilled player is paramount in this League... Briere and Giroux were pointed out as tough on their skates; they are also players that take hits and get up and don't lose a step, and they are players that push back in any way they can while being unevenly matched up with most opponents... It is hard to knock them off and out of their game... and personally I wouldn't want to get Briere pissed off and then face him again on the ice; he has a real nasty streak in hi little body... same goes for Kimmo and his diminutive frame.


... And Zerdev, if you watch him, will take the hits and give the nasty shots and put his glove in opponents faces... he is just not considered a fighter, but he will do whatever it takes to better his chances of scoring a goal.

I have no concerns whatsoever with this team's toughness... and it doesn't bother me that they are not the reincarnation of the Broad Street Bullies... they have the heart the BSB had, IMO... There is really no weakness in that regards, and there is no die in this dog in a fight.


Last edited by Sawdalite: 02-08-2011 at 01:42 PM.
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