HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Holmgren has sent this organization spiraling downward

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-03-2010, 09:36 AM
  #176
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
So if we sign Turco, and have our top 6, but trade gagne (who a lot of people have been clammoring to put up as trade bait due to age/contract), everyone will still be super pissed?

Goalie - Check
Capable backup - Check
Improved D with better 3rd pairing, check.
Not trading Carter (who is more valuable to the team then gagne) - check

Just playing devils advocate.
Or we could have not acted ******** and kept Gagne in a year that we are trying to win the Cup and then deal with salary issues in the offseason.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 10:52 PM
  #177
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
You nay-sayers want to take anything back? He's about to trade Gagne, arguably the most popular player on the team, a Flyer from the start, our longest tenured player, a class act all the way, and a guy that loves the area
-8 in the Finals

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:20 PM
  #178
GoneFullHextall
JR=clueless
 
GoneFullHextall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Somewhere in NH
Country: United States
Posts: 35,115
vCash: 50
+/- is the most overrated stat im hockey

GoneFullHextall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:43 PM
  #179
mikedifr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
-8 in the Finals
Yeah and Carter was a -6, and for the whole playoffs Carter was a -5 vs. Gagne's -2

Whats your point??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Or we could have not acted ******** and kept Gagne in a year that we are trying to win the Cup and then deal with salary issues in the offseason.
Now why would Holmgren have done that??? He obviously needs to make 75 moves every offseason

mikedifr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2010, 11:49 PM
  #180
Dig Out Your Soul
Ex Storm...
 
Dig Out Your Soul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
-8 in the Finals
Ok, so I assume you're in favour of trading Gagne. If I recall correctly, you've never been his biggest fan. Fine.

Would you rather have the worst starting goaltender in the NHL, a 20 game goon and the most overpaid 5th defenseman in the NHL for $6.6M, or Gagne?

That's basically what this comes down to. Holmgren chose to add pieces that didn't need adding, costing a winger we kind of need (putting loyalty aside, we're honestly pretty short on natural wings given that this organization thinks we need 4 top 2 centres in the lineup).

Dig Out Your Soul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:24 AM
  #181
Cinerary
The Inexorable
 
Cinerary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: West Chester, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,581
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
-8 in the Finals
Here's a better one - Michael Leighton's save percentage in the Finals: .858

Cinerary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:25 AM
  #182
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 17,127
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Gagne was also injured and getting pain injections before every game, he clearly wasn't himself.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 03:51 AM
  #183
Flyerfan808
Registered User
 
Flyerfan808's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honolulu, HI
Country: United States
Posts: 2,002
vCash: 500
What use is it anymore?

Over the past couple of days, I have been trying (really really hard) to trick myself into believing that Holmgren knows what he is doing. I have been trying the glass half full approach, but... its not working.

I keep going over all the useless moves and absence of logic and I come to the conclusion that I cannot afford to waste a great deal of time toiling over how badly this team has mismanaged its assets this summer (and it isn't over yet). At the end of the day there is no use in complaining about all that has and will transpire during the offseason. It isn't as if we can do anything about it.

As of today I will put on a smile, try to be optimistic (even to the point of sarcasm) and look forward to the start of the season and whatever kind of roster we will be sporting. This team is still going to compete. I expect it to compete at the highest levels... and I don't want to hear any excuses from Holmgren, Laviolette, anyone in this organization.

So I am just going to leave it at this:

In this upcoming season I expect Stanley Cup FINALS. Anything less than that and Holmgren should be FIRED.

I don't care how, and I don't want to hear any excuses if we fall short. SCF or kthxbye.

GO FLYERS.

Flyerfan808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 06:18 AM
  #184
Kaktus*
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 22,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
-8 in the Finals
What about M.Richards? Was he a minus player too? I think he was -7, trade him?

Kaktus* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 06:49 AM
  #185
hextall shoots
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Delaware County PA
Country: Hungary
Posts: 60
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Gagne was also injured and getting pain injections before every game, he clearly wasn't himself.
With all of Gagnes injuries its hard to tell when he will be "himself".

hextall shoots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 07:47 AM
  #186
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
+/- is the most overrated stat im hockey
He sucked in the FInals.

SUCKED.

You're one of the guys who said Gagne was a "lock" for Team Canada, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinerary View Post
Here's a better one - Michael Leighton's save percentage in the Finals: .858
So what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
What about M.Richards? Was he a minus player too? I think he was -7, trade him?
Mike Richards isn't even at his prime yet. Gagne has passed his.

Simon Gagne is NOT a Sacred Cow. Trading his would NOT be blasphemous.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 07:48 AM
  #187
JXC
#LaviPondHockeyFail
 
JXC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hextall shoots View Post
With all of Gagnes injuries its hard to tell when he will be "himself".
He's on his downside. He will never be "himself" again.

JXC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 08:43 AM
  #188
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,494
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Ok, so I assume you're in favour of trading Gagne. If I recall correctly, you've never been his biggest fan. Fine.

Would you rather have the worst starting goaltender in the NHL, a 20 game goon and the most overpaid 5th defenseman in the NHL for $6.6M, or Gagne?

That's basically what this comes down to. Holmgren chose to add pieces that didn't need adding, costing a winger we kind of need (putting loyalty aside, we're honestly pretty short on natural wings given that this organization thinks we need 4 top 2 centres in the lineup).
Thank you for summing this up. I see this as the problem. It is not that the team is worse, it is that these deals did not need to be made. So Holmgren obtains players that are not really necessary for a player who can get 30 goals on a team that jettisoned Knuble and Lupul last offseason. we keep getting rid of goals without replacing them.

Pantokrator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 09:15 AM
  #189
Garbage Goal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
He sucked in the FInals.

SUCKED.

You're one of the guys who said Gagne was a "lock" for Team Canada, right?

So what?

Mike Richards isn't even at his prime yet. Gagne has passed his.

Simon Gagne is NOT a Sacred Cow. Trading his would NOT be blasphemous.
Michael Leighton sucked in the finals too, but apparently Homer has made it a priority to sign a career borderline NHLer to be our starter rather then keeping a life-time Flyer and 30-goal scorer.

The fact that Gagne was even in consideration for Team Canada says a lot about how good he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
Thank you for summing this up. I see this as the problem. It is not that the team is worse, it is that these deals did not need to be made. So Holmgren obtains players that are not really necessary for a player who can get 30 goals on a team that jettisoned Knuble and Lupul last offseason. we keep getting rid of goals without replacing them.
Exactly.

I don't think anyone realizes how screwed our offense is without Gagne. It showed in the Boston series during the playoffs last year. He's our best winger, defensively responsible, and a threat for 30 goals and 70 points. How does anyone expect Homer to replace the production of Knuble, Umberger, Lupul, and Gagne over the last couple off-seasons with the way the cap is?

Garbage Goal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 09:23 AM
  #190
decadentia
Registered User
 
decadentia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New Brunswick
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,548
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
He's on his downside. He will never be "himself" again.
Back away from Gagne


decadentia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 09:32 AM
  #191
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I don't think anyone realizes how screwed our offense is without Gagne. It showed in the Boston series during the playoffs last year. He's our best winger, defensively responsible, and a threat for 30 goals and 70 points. How does anyone expect Homer to replace the production of Knuble, Umberger, Lupul, and Gagne over the last couple off-seasons with the way the cap is?
We were missing Jeff Carter in that series too. The offense isn't screwed.

This is what happens with a salary cap. You lock up guys who you think are your "core" and you flip older high priced guys with younger cheap guys. It's the cost of doing business. You have to rely on guys like Leino, Giroux and JvR to pick up the production of the Knuble's and Gagne's that you're losing.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 10:23 AM
  #192
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,532
vCash: 500
When all is said and done, the guys on the ice have done really well in spite of Holmgren. It was bad enough he kept Stevens around forever but he's negated the good things he's done (Betts, Lappy, Leino) with all the bad contracts (too many to list) and overpayments. I dread the Gagne trade and it isn't because I have a deep attachment to Gagne.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 10:43 AM
  #193
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
We were missing Jeff Carter in that series too. The offense isn't screwed.

This is what happens with a salary cap. You lock up guys who you think are your "core" and you flip older high priced guys with younger cheap guys. It's the cost of doing business. You have to rely on guys like Leino, Giroux and JvR to pick up the production of the Knuble's and Gagne's that you're losing.
No one here is blinded to the realities of a cap-based world (except maybe Homer, actually) but we are just concerned that horrible cap management will lead to Gags being a salary dump rather than a necessary move to ensure the longterm success of the team. That would be tolerable though still painful. Gagne doesn't exactly have a great deal of value right now anyway.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 11:55 AM
  #194
MountainHawk
Registered User
 
MountainHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salem, MA
Country: Vanuatu
Posts: 12,771
vCash: 500
Holmgren is living off drafts from prior to his tenure. This is all going to come crashing down on us at some point.

MountainHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 11:58 AM
  #195
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Holmgren is living off drafts from prior to his tenure. This is all going to come crashing down on us at some point.
You need multiple players that are on ELCs to keep the cap under control. The future is looking pretty bleak in that regard for us. He doesn't understand that young, cheap talent is necessary.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:21 PM
  #196
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
You need multiple players that are on ELCs to keep the cap under control. The future is looking pretty bleak in that regard for us. He doesn't understand that young, cheap talent is necessary.
Yet when he tries to trade an older guy with an injury history for what could amount to player(s) on ELCs or draft picks the entire board goes crazy.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:23 PM
  #197
MountainHawk
Registered User
 
MountainHawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Salem, MA
Country: Vanuatu
Posts: 12,771
vCash: 500
30 is old?

MountainHawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:25 PM
  #198
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Yet when he tries to trade an older guy with an injury history for what could amount to player(s) on ELCs or draft picks the entire board goes crazy.
First, you have no idea what the return for Gags would be or what he's even asking for. Ryan, for example, would be a 5M+ player coming back.

Second, as you've alluded to, Gagne's value isn't particularly high right now. Because of that it has all of the makings of a salary dump rather than a restocking of young talent.

Third, if we are trying to win a Cup this year, Gagne isn't the player to be looking to lose.

Fourth, Homer's cap management skills are about as developed as Glenn Beck's love of black people.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:50 PM
  #199
Snotbubbles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,582
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
First, you have no idea what the return for Gags would be or what he's even asking for. Ryan, for example, would be a 5M+ player coming back.

Second, as you've alluded to, Gagne's value isn't particularly high right now. Because of that it has all of the makings of a salary dump rather than a restocking of young talent.

Third, if we are trying to win a Cup this year, Gagne isn't the player to be looking to lose.

Fourth, Homer's cap management skills are about as developed as Glenn Beck's love of black people.
Nobody knows what the return for Gagne would be, yet everyone seems ok to jump on Holmgren for even asking him to waive his NTC.

Snotbubbles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-04-2010, 12:56 PM
  #200
Valhoun*
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 10,311
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Valhoun*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Nobody knows what the return for Gagne would be, yet everyone seems ok to jump on Holmgren for even asking him to waive his NTC.
As well they should because it is a move that is being forced due to cap mismanagement and there is a very real possibility that Gagne's trade value is very, very low right now.

Valhoun* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:05 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.